Question about dimensions

[fandom_1nsane010]

It is stated on this wiki that when a character is one dimension above another character (eg 4D vs 3D) that the higher dimensional character would be able to attack a higher dimensional plane the same way we tear a piece of paper with a drawing an destroy the lower dimensional character, and that the lower dimensional character wont be able to do absoloutely no damage to the higher dimensional one.

But for example a gravitational singularity could decimate the whole solar system even though it's 0 dimensional and we would have no way to get rid of it even though we are 3 dimensions above it

Another example would be a cosmic string(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmic_string) which if it passed through our planet would rip it apart and we again couldn't do anything to stop it

Am I missing something here or is the wiki wrong?

 

[SchutzenDunkelZiel1217]

Hmmmmm where the hell did you get the Solar System to be 0 dimensions. Does it not have a length, breath or height.

 

[The_Everlasting]

He meant a black hole has 0 dimensions, not a solar system.

 

[SchutzenDunkelZiel1217]

Alright...

 

[SchutzenDunkelZiel1217]

However if I remember correctly Black Holes are supposed to be 4-D not 0-D depending on the type of black hole.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Yeah, don't black holes have three spatial dimensions and one temporal dimension?

 

[SchutzenDunkelZiel1217]

I'd seriously like to know the expert's aka DarkLK's answer on this whole thing....

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Ditto. Also, aren't cosmic strings purely hypothetical?

 

[SchutzenDunkelZiel1217]

I asked him. And for the most part yep.

 

[The_Everlasting]

Hypothetical they may be, but if they were incorporated in fiction, they'd likely still hold the power physics says they do.

Also, I'm going to bed, so don't expect me to reply until ~8:00. Just thought I'd mention that.

 

[SchutzenDunkelZiel1217]

Whenever they've been included in fiction. The authors don't usually know what they really do most of the time and make them do what they desire instead....

 

[Kavpeny]

A gravitational singularity does not exist by itself. It is a hypothetical point within the black hole where the gravity of the black hole converges. A black hole itself has 3 spatial dimensions, and exists within a 4-dimesional space-time continuum.

I don't know about Cosmic Strings, I'll look into it and answer again soon.

P.S.: IMO, DarkLK would be the best person to address this thread.

 

[Antvasima]

I thought that black holes worked on a higher-dimensional level, but I am not a physicist, so I would like to hear more about this.

Anyway, we based much of our system around the concept of infinity in projective geometry, with a simple explanation available here.

 

[DarkLK]

As far as I know, the strings only conditional 1-dimensional. Technically they have some kind of diameter, it's just a negligible diameter.

Singularity is a completely unexplored thing. Technically, this is a 3-dimensional (or 4-D) object compression at one point within the Black Hole. As far as I know it only tends to 0-dimensional state endlessly but does not actually reach it (or hypothetical reaches it, but it still is only a part of the black hole, and it does not exist independently of it). Therefore, it still has a mass, but this mass is compressed infinitely in all directions because of endlessly size reduction. The density of the object tends to infinity, and the gravity affects 4-D spacetime.

In addition, it is not quite true if any high-dimensional objects can destroy any low-dimensional object. It is a possibly they would not even be able to interact (I think we have discussed this with Lord Kaverpeny). Much depends on the individual fiction and author.

However, any real high-dimensional objects are infinitely greater than any low-dimensional ones by definition.

 

[Kavpeny]

@DarkLK: Yes, we have. You mentioned that higher dimensional beings could directly interact with the higher dimensional construct of which the lower dimensional being was a part of. However, you mentioned that this is true only for real life, and that different fictions play by different rules (sometimes even illogically so).

 

[DarkLK]

Fictional higher dimensional beings tend to just have an extra abilities (lower manifestations, warping, some abstract powers etc) for full cooperation with the lower structures.

 

[A6colute]

String is a 1-dimensional object.

But strings are base parts of 11-D complex multiverse.

How?

It's simply.

Even 1-D object has other 10 dimensionals. But their values = 0. If one of values > 0, then 1-D object transforms into 2-D object. And so on.

 

[DontTalk]

I believe after the Standard Model all paricles in the universe are actually 0 dimensional. So if you describe the world from the Microcosm we are all 0-dimensional beings that have no extension in space. What gives us 3-dimensional properties is the way the particles interact with each other. Since they arrange each other in 3-dimensional space and and interact with each other only in this we can be said to be truly 3-dimensional beings out of a macroscopic perspective. The same way the examples are 3-dimensional. They may be only points or strings in space, but since they interact with the world in a 3-dimensional way they also have 3-dimensional properties.

If you actually had 0 or 1 dimensional particles that only interact with their surroundings on a 2-dimensional plane, then out of our perspective the force holding this particles together is negligible. Similar it would be for higher dimensional beings and our structures, I believe.


But quantum mechanics is a subject I usually avoid, so I could be wrong here.

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

ok let me clear this up-

a black hole is a hole in space time, and we fall in it, because we cannot really pull spacetime like a curtain to escape the black hole, if we cud, black holes wud be no problem

but instead of a curtain, spacetime is more like a waterbody, ad we are like the fish

anyway, uyes, higher dimensional being shud be above lower dimensional beings, but at times it might not be that easy

each higher dimension gives you an additional mathematical property, in reality, i do not know whether it gives you any power

eg. if a 2-D plane had any ms, it cud cut through any 3-D object, but it does not have mass, so it simply does not interact

 

[Mandrakk_The_Dark_Monitor]

I thought that black holes worked on a higher-dimensional level, but I am not a physicist, so I would like to hear more about this.
Anyway, we based much of our system around the concept of infinity in projective geometry, with a simple explanation available here.

I've been meaning to ask this and I know we've discussed dimensions in my first posts, but I never mentioned what I meant by them. How do we classify other dimensions other than spatial ones such as portals, different worlds, pocket universes, timelines or something that takes you to other places away from the normal world (example: Hyperbolic chamber in DBZ) and how are they power scaled or ranked specifically?

 

[fandom_1nsane010]

...

A Black hole is actually just the gravitational force of the mass in the singulairty, so saying that the singularity isn't independent of the black hole is the same as saying that our planet isn't independent of it's gravitational field. The gravitation of black holes could have effect on higher dimension, even on higher than 4 dimensions, but that still doesnt change the fact that all the mass is converged to a single point.

But let's say that an object has that much dimensions as it affects. Then as far as we know we could be 10-dimensional , but just with 3-dimensional perception, and our actions could affect things on a level we cannot comprehend.

 

[Antvasima]

I've been meaning to ask this and I know we've discussed dimensions in my first posts, but I never mentioned what I meant by them. How do we classify other dimensions other than spatial ones such as portals, different worlds, pocket universes, timelines or something that takes you to other places away from the normal world (example: Hyperbolic chamber in DBZ) and how are they power scaled or ranked specifically?

Higher-Dimensional Manipulation, Character Tiering, dimension. As for pocket realms, or pocket universes, it depends on their size and nature.

 

[Mandrakk_The_Dark_Monitor]

I've been meaning to ask this and I know we've discussed dimensions in my first posts, but I never mentioned what I meant by them. How do we classify other dimensions other than spatial ones such as portals, different worlds, pocket universes, timelines or something that takes you to other places away from the normal world (example: Hyperbolic chamber in DBZ) and how are they power scaled or ranked specifically?

Higher-Dimensional Manipulation, Character Tiering, dimension. As for pocket realms, or pocket universes, it depends on their size and nature.

Got it. I'd say that's a pretty hax power that will be difficult to judge in a used setting where they exist in places outside the "natural world". Like if the DBZ verse were to be destroyed while someone is in the Hyperbolic Time chamber, they would be safe right?

 

[Antvasima]

I don't know? It depends on how connected it is to the regular DBZ world? Folded space and pocket realms probably work differently from franchise to franchise, and I am not informed about if it has any basis in real world science?

 

[Mandrakk_The_Dark_Monitor]

I don't know? It depends on how connected it is to the regular DBZ world? Folded space and pocket realms probably work differently from franchise to franchise, and I am not informed about if it has any basis in real world science?

They would be safe, which is why Piccolo destroyed the door do Super Buu won't be able to access the DBZ universe so they were stuck there (until they escaped by ripping a hole through back to the planet Earth). Heaven and Hell are also other common realms that we must weigh in. But as you said, I should go do some research about it in regards to science. But most likely heaven and hell are of universal scope and every universe has it's heaven and hell (such as every universe has it's own abstract entity in Marvel)

 

[DarkLK]

1nsane010, Singularity occurs when a black hole is formed. As I recall, string theory deny the zero-dimensional singularity, because there is a limit of compression (The Planck length). Scientists generally do not like "infinity" in their theories. For example here is what Andy Parker (a professor of high-energy physics at England's Cambridge University) says: "My guess is that black hole singularities are quite a lot smaller than a quark, but I don't believe they're of infinite density. Most likely they are maybe a million million times or even more than that smaller than the distances we've seen so far".

Yes, according to one theory and interpretation or another (recall. In addition to a 10-dimensional string theory, there are also M-theory, F-theory, etc.) our existence can be crossed with the higher levels. Due to cross-dimensional vibration of the fundamental structural units, due to the interaction n-branes, due to the presence of parallel worlds or due to something else. But all this are only theories. Objectively, we perceive only the three-dimensional reality, and the addition of extra dimensions in such theories for example can explain countless possibilities of parallel worlds. Basically it is the reason for such a different variants of cosmology in various fictions.

 

[fandom_1nsane010]

The planck lenght actually is the smallest possible measurable unit, so even if an object was smaller than the planck lenght it still behaves and is treated as if it was the size of a planck. But if we treat planck as the smallest unit possible, and avoid the infinities, a 3d object would still have a planck in the every higher dimension, so in a way it wouldn't be a true 3d object.

What I'm trying to say is that it isn't always illogical if a lower dimensional character manages to do damage to a higher dimensional one(and vica verca) since it depends in which theory the writer believes and how he interprets it (I'm refering to the note at the bottom of this page : https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Character_Tiering)

 

[DarkLK]

If the low-dimensional character can beat the high-dimensional character it does not mean that lower dimension > higher one. It just means this low-dimensional character has abilities to affect higher dimensions (for example it can be quantum manipulation, reality warping or ability of being Batman), because the abilities that affect only low dimensions simply does not have sufficient scale. I have no problem with the fact that some characters may have the power that goes beyond dimensions where the bodies of this characters physically exist.

With regard to the article, it needs to be improved for quite some time.

 

[Antvasima]

Your help to improve it, would, as always, be welcome and appreciated DarkLK.

 

[DarkLK]

Well, I've already discussed with Lord Kavpeny about the fact that is not always true that the higher characters can destroy the lower ones as a drawings on paper.

I'll try to make a list of necessary changes tomorrow.

 

[Kavpeny]

@DarkLK: I have changed the information listed on the Character Tiering page, and inserted this block of text in the note:

"Apart from PIS, characters in lower dimension may have certain abilities (quantum manipulation, reality warping, etc.), which allow them to harm or even defeat higher dimensional characters. These abilities are subjective, and their effectiveness at affecting higher dimensional beings varies, depending on the fictional rules the author of that particular franchise has laid out.

To summarize, being higher dimensional does not always ensure victory over lower dimensional beings."

^ does that sound satisfactorily explanatory?

 

[DarkLK]

Basically, here's what we need to add.

- Any lower-dimensional abilities and effects should technically be useless against higher-dimensional entities, but in rare cases, lower-dimensional characters can have abilities (high level quantum manipulation, reality warping, etc.) allowing them to influence higher-dimensional structures.

- Higher-dimensional characters can have problems affecting lower-dimensional structures, because they are too insignificant. However, lower-dimensional characters are most likely just a small part of the space-time continuum of cosmic structures with a large number of dimensions (for example a multiverse). So higher-dimensional entities can likely directly affect the whole structure, even if they can not provide the exact impact on a specific three-dimensional object.

- Nevertheless, higher-dimensional characters usually have some sort of ability to manipulate reality, or creating lower "shadows", avatars, or manifestation bodies that allow them to interact directly with lower aspects of reality.

- There are many different versions of the concept of higher-dimensional entities, depending on the particular author and fictional setting.

 

[Antvasima]

I attempted to incorporate the new text into the footnotes. Feel free to polish it further Lord Kavpeny.

 

[Kavpeny]

I made some minor text changes...

 

[Antvasima]

I adjusted it somewhat. I think that it is imoortant to note that they can sometimes cast "shadows" like we do on a two-dimensional surface, or that their dreams affect lower reality in other fictions.

 

[Kavpeny]

I disagree with "automatic" casting.

 

[Antvasima]

Well automatically casting a lower-dimensional shadow, I mean. But I am going on vacation in a few minutes.

 

[Kavpeny]

We don't know enough about higher dimensional character to know whether they cast shadows automatically.

See you, man. Have a good time