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Devil May Cry: Metaphysical Revisions (Part-1)

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SuperSonicTL

SuperSonicTL

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Names Explanation​

Names are a component of one's soul that can reshape reality on a whim if altered as we know. These names precedes the universe they operate under and was there since the creation of Demon World altogether so it has the range to effect the Underworld itself. Now frankly, these names represents one's power and meaning of their existence, like an information that allows the soul to reshape itself on an abstract scale with whatever it is named after and what it represents in reality as we know while manipulating it entirely in the said process.

Something else that could be useful to demonstrate these concepts could be how the power of a demon seems to be bound, or to be one of the branches from which his power arises. This is due to several factors that we can see throughout the verse. This would mean that the concepts give rise to one of the Universal Energy Systems of the verse that can alter reality in different ways. Here I present some examples we gathered soo far to support this idea of ours:
Another thing that comes to mind is the 7 sins, which can cause fear of Heaven (Demon World) when gathered, but most likely this alludes to how Arkham can open a portal to the Demon World with the 7 bells and the 7 names, showing that they can at least do something in reality, opening a portal between space-times, completely violating the barrier/veil that lay between the two worlds. This also could allude to a manipulation of the world by the names.

Finally, what does the name actually do? Well, I believe it acts like a "translator" for the soul. Essentially, it gets passed down the existence from the subject as well as the power from their emotions and mind to the physical body of the devil. While it is true that the names are of a great importance to demons, it is important to note that they can still exist and use their powers at will regardless of being nameless. When Dante got attacked by the nameless demons, they could still use magic against him. Demons like the "Nobodies" that lack a name can still attack Dante on DMC 1, which means that the demons need to have another source of power that we're missing entirely aside from names. Basically, the name isn't a source of power, it is but a "translator" of it that contains the information of the demon, like a template, and passes down said energy to the physical body of the demon.

TDLR;
  • 1) Names existed before the Human World.
  • 2) Names can change the world as well as the space-time.
  • 3) Names give the devil's physical form his power.
  • 4) Power is in the soul, and the name interferes with the power, changing it to deliver it to the demon. This means that the name acts as a translator for the soul and it's functions.
  • 5) Names are shared among all species of demons and give them the same base power (unless they get some other boost independent of names).

Mind Explanation​

Now lets talk about the relationship of the name and one's metaphysical/unconscious memory. There are several examples that show how these things could be at least on the same level of abstraction, possibly even more, since names do not affect the unconscious.
Vergil's nightmares are like metaphysical memories. These nightmares do not possess a definite form and co-exist in the world of dreams and memories. Such beings normally inhabit the metaphysical realms of nightmares that are Transcendental. In itself, one's power can be defined by aspects of the subconscious, the subconscious being something that allows you to envision what your death will be like in order to make it a reality, thus mutating other aspects of your being as the physical being the source of all power in the verse, allowing all demons and any being to execute their hax's such as Reality Warping or merely boosting their AP and Durability. These aspects such as dreams can also be found within the Demon World:
This all could hint to its possible transcendent nature as well. Nightmare/Dream spaces are also referred to as the "subconscious", where the Sargasso's are in and they're basically that, Nightmare Places. It's also worth mentioning that the emotions are quite literally stated to be inside the soul multiple times, and are the source of the power for all demons and humans, so we can already see the soul has something to do with these mystical aspects. They can also depart from the soul if this one is destroyed or damaged and create entirely new entities, quite literally creating new names, showing us again that they have a superiority toward the names of demons.

With all this being said, we are later introduced to a Demon Lord known as Helfilth who is a spirit wandering beyond time and space, Master of dimensional rifts, embodiment of Fear and is the source of all nightmares like Vergil's Nightmares or Nightmarish replicants of original Demons in his realm. By this, she is logically also the source of Dreams/Nightmares based entities like Sargassos that are blatantly described as non-existent and transcendent in nature. With this in mind, it can be seen how it act as an example of type 1 conceptual manipulation as she exists before the idea of Human World was a thing and is the ultimate source of all Nightmares that exists not just in Human World but all of Underworld as well that precedes the reality of Human World which is an important factor to qualify for type 1 concept.

We can do a TD;LR of all of this and name which unconscious aspects can get these "Transcendental" or "Metaphysical" thingies we've been talking about it.
  • 1) Strong emotions/desires
  • 2)Dreams/Nightmares
    • 2.1) Memories
This also seems to add up to the Unconscious Theory, which says that things like Dreams, Repressed Desires, Memories, Repressed Ideas, etc. are part of the Unconscious/Subconscious mind, that we cannot access normally, and cannot access by any means. All of this leaves me to believe that the aspects that are shown in DMC (Desires, Dreams and Memories) are Metaphysical, Transcendental, Change the World and are part of the same Nature, co-existing within the subconscious of it's object.

Thanks to all of this, we can conclude that memories, dreams, nightmares and emotions are but an independent part of the soul that not only changes the world, but also creates new concepts and entities, being also independent of these entities and concepts since they can still continue to exist long after they've been erased.

TDLR;
  • 1) These aspects can alter reality by giving demons evolutive abilities overtime or envision reality to be a certain way.
  • 2) These aspects are metaphysical and can exist in spaces beyond space-time.
  • 3) These aspects are independent of their individual.
  • 4) These aspects are part of the soul and are the source of the demon's raw power.
  • 5) These aspects are abstract.

Soul Explanation​

The soul in Devil May Cry is that which every being has, there is no single being in the series that lacks a "soul", everybody has one. Even the inanimate objects possess one.

I would like to point out that, in the second manga from DMC 3, specifically for when Arkham is telling Vergil about the "names", he drops a fact, a quick fact that is important to note. This fact is that "the names are only close to what their true substance is". Now sure, this "true substance" at first glance is just something that isn't further explained within the series but, that is not entirely the case here. It seems the so called "true substance" is the soul of a demon all along, and I will show you why I believe that:
  • Demons are able to exist without a balance (balance that is produced by the duality existing between the Human World and the Demon World, and how the Demon World predates the Human, as there was no balance), and thus can perfectly well resist changes in dichotomies or dualisms (I'll explain this in part 2 with great detail so consider this a preliminary statement). Talking about the Demon World, the souls are never actually affected by the spatio-temporal madness or other changes that occur in the Demon World, which warp time, space and have other laws. Souls are clearly not affected by physical or fundamental aspects such as these which is good to take note of.
  • Demons are also able to exist without a name, only the fodder ones being affected by such affairs. However, they cannot live without their soul as that is what makes them what they are, that's their true being because demons are well, spirits.
  • Another example of the Soul being a higher level than the actual name, is the Arachne from DMC 3. Their description says that, once a human female fell onto the underworld, her soul was transformed into that of a demon. However, if we're perceptive about this, it never really says that the Demon World changed her name at all, even though she has the name of a demon and the powers of one. The Demon World only changed the soul, and that seemingly was enough to change her name into that of an Arachne to form part of the species of the Arachnes.
Finally, per accepted by the wiki, obtaining the soul of someone grants you their power and/or abilities. And as we've established previously, Names are the translator for it. All of the important information about the relationship between the Soul and the Unconscious aspects of a demon can be read here. They're basically the soul itself and are another one of the sources of power within the verse. Finally, Beastheads straight up assimilates souls into raw Demonic Energy that only proves that souls indeed are the source of actual power.

This also means that all of the metaphysical aspects are a part of the soul and influence the raw power a demon has, and this raw power gets passed to the name. Due to this, the metaphysical aspects should at the very least upscale the soul since they're but a fraction of it.
  • 1) The Soul is the devil itself, the name is only close to it and exists well above it, including dualistic notions from reality itself.
  • 2) The Soul comes from realms that predate existence, in a primordial world before dualistic notions and full of spatio-temporal chaos that does not affect the soul or demons themselves.
  • 3) The Soul can exist with or without the name or the other metaphysical aspects that constitute it.
  • 4) Changing the soul produces the demon's name to be altered, while the metaphysical aspects can detach from the soul, meaning that they could have the same ontological nature.
  • 5) The Soul of a demon includes their ancestor's powers and abilities
Here is an illustration to summarize everything we have argued (made by Palito, I just gave the idea lol):

ibb.co


In very easy terms, Names acts as both concept and information of an entity via being a translator. Consciousness and Unconsciousness have shown the ability to operate as an abstraction and being independent from the influence of names. Souls are the true substance of an entity unlike names and is the container of all the basic aspects of existence of Demons. Souls are the true source of Demonic Energy as we can see through beastheads assimilation of souls into raw Demonic energy soo that's out of question. Finally, Helfilth puts a final nail in the coffin by being the source of every nightmare that exists in Human World and Demon World that precedes Human World.

With all this in mind, the verse would most likely gonna its current ratings change to:
  1. Abstract Existence (Type 1) based on Type 1 Concepts and Type 2 Information, For the Names, Mind, Memories and Souls.
  2. Conceptual Manipulation (Type 1), For the Demon World & Demonic Energy: A clue for this are the different humans who became monsters, this being something that affects their souls and transforms them into a predetermined species, sharing this name with the others among their species. Similarly, Beastheads could assimilate Souls into raw power.
  3. Conceptual Manipulation (Type 1), For Helfilth via being the source of all Nightmares as accepted here.

Answering Some Potential Counter-Arguments​

Q1:"It is impossible for the Demon World to manipulate names, since names are what affect the Demon World, and they cannot be independent if the world itself can affect them"
A1: If we follow this logic, there would be no one with Type 1 Conceptual Manipulation of any kind. Type 1 Concepts are transcendental and independent in nature, but if so-and-so X comes along and affects them, this would mean that the concepts are not independent of So-and-so, and therefore they are not really transcendent since they can be affected. This is actually an Appeal to Reality, which ignores the possible fact that fiction is fiction, and that logic will not always work as it does in reality, since they are approximations of it, but not a copy.

Q2: "The manga seems to refer to an allegory of how the world changes, and not that it actually changes"
A2: The truth is that this is not supported by anything, and the words of the demons are quite clear on the nature of these demons, emphasizing that they seem infinite and miraculous. Everything seen so far seems to indicate that they do have an effect on the world and on existence, so such an allegory cannot be sustained. Furthermore, Mad Hatter and Dante's conversation is about how he "borrowed" his father's demonic nature/power, or could even be referring to how just Ebony and Ivory fell, and Mad Hatter made that comment.

Q3: "That humans can imbue demons with more power would make the names based on perception"
A3: Incorrect. If we look at the scan it clearly mentions how people avoid even naming them a certain way. Let's give an example. If I eat a lot of chocolate on the street corner, and being called "chocolate eater on the corner" makes my willingness to eat chocolate increase, does this mean that they are changing the concept of my name to give me more power? No, it just means that it is a form of Empowerment and does not imply that the concept is inconsequential or similar.

Q4: "Souls being above Names doesn't mean Souls are inherently abstract, much less Type 1 Concepts"
A4: While this is true in other contexts, here we have far more scans and explanations to see what's going on. Firstly, one might be tempted to say that, if a soul is above a concept, then that said concept should fall under Type 3. However, this is rather untrue for DMC. Names themselves change the world and are the truth from which demons shape their forms and are granted their power, said power being capable of distorting reality in a plethora of ways. We also have plenty of proof that emotions and dreams, which are abstract in nature, are contained within the soul. The soul is not merely something spiritual, but rather abstract that contains dreams, emotions, the existence of the demon and power of it. We also have plenty of proof to confirm that Souls are indeed superior to Names because, once your soul gets altered, your name can also get manipulated as a result, changing your very own existence at a layered and fundamental level.

Agree:
@Planck69 (Administrator), @Dalesean027 (Thread Moderator), @LephyrTheRevanchist (Administrator), @Theglassman12 (Thread Moderator)
Disagree:

Neutral:​
 
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Since names/souls are very specific and don't tend to govern a whole 'reality'- I'd label them more as a Type 3 concept.
The resulting abstract existence shouldn't be affected.

As for Helfifth, wouldn't nightmares be Type 2 since they require someone to be asleep to exist and/or would be affected by someone waking up?
 
Greetings Finepoint and thank you for taking the time to weigh in here. I appreciate your willingness to engage but that said, I believe there's a bit of contextual misunderstanding here that I’d like to clarify.

FinePoint said:
Since names/souls are very specific and don't tend to govern a whole 'reality'- I'd label them more as a Type 3 concept.
The resulting abstract existence shouldn't be affected.
Click to expand...

From my knowledge, Type 1 concepts are not strictly required to govern an entire reality but rather, it needs to exist independent of the reality it operates under. In DMC 3 manga, the man speaking with Dante explicitly states that simply manipulating a name can lead to the world itself changing in response. That alone qualifies as Type 2 but it doesn’t stop there. Human World itself is described as being born from the Demon World which obviously makes it a construct derivative to it, not parallel and yet names and souls existed before the Human World was even conceptualized. That surely reinforces the broader idea that Names and Souls simply precedes or transcend the reality we know as Human World ontologically and thus, have the capacity to influence all of Demon World in contrast to Human World given the implications of "world" in this context which we ignored in the past that was assumed to be limited only to Human World and thus, making it qualify as type 2 at best.

FinePoint said:
As for Helfifth, wouldn't nightmares be Type 2 since they require someone to be asleep to exist and/or would be affected by someone waking up?
Click to expand...

Not precisely. Helfilth existed before Human World and humanity itself in general. He definitely has control over the concept of nightmares not just in Human World but also Demon World that — as I've claimed before — exists independent or simply precedes it. That said, due to the very nature of his connection with a particular set of sub-realities while being resident of Demon World that showcase precedence over it. It would definitely be another case for type 1 conceptual manipulation.
 
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SuperSonicTL said:
Greetings Finepoint and thank you for taking the time to weigh in here. I appreciate your willingness to engage but that said, I believe there's a bit of contextual misunderstanding here that I’d like to clarify.
Click to expand...
Indeed, that is likely since I know nothing about the verse yet just ingested a pipe bomb worth of very specific lore.
Of course I am always willing to listen further and change my mind, those were just my initial impressions.
SuperSonicTL said:
From my knowledge, Type 1 concepts are not strictly required to govern an entire reality but rather, it needs to exist independent of the reality it operates under. In DMC 3 manga, the man speaking with Dante explicitly states that simply manipulating a name can lead to the world itself changing in response. That alone qualifies as Type 2 but it doesn’t stop there. Human World itself is described as being born from the Demon World which obviously makes it a construct derivative to it, not parallel and yet names and souls existed before the Human World was even conceptualized. That surely reinforces the broader idea that Names and Souls simply precedes or transcend the reality we know as Human World ontologically and thus, have the capacity to influence all of Demon World in contrast to Human World given the implications of "world" in this context which we ignored in the past that was assumed to be limited only to Human World and thus, making it qualify as type 2 at best.
Click to expand...
Well, if it consistently affects entire worlds then I can definitely see at least Type 2. Is there also proof they existed before the Demon World? If it also governs that world, it would need to be independent from both to be Type 1.
SuperSonicTL said:
Not precisely. Helfilth existed before Human World and humanity itself in general. He definitely has control over the concept of nightmares not just in Human World but also Demon World that — as I've claimed before — exists independent or simply precedes it. That said, due to the very nature of his connection with a particular set of sub-realities while being resident of Demon World that showcase precedence over it. It would definitely be another case for type 1 conceptual manipulation.
Click to expand...
I suppose I have the same question as before.
 
Literally what about this explanation remotely talks about the Demon's name being literal knowledge/data that determines their existence? I don't see how any of this translates to info type 2.
 
Theglassman12 said:
Literally what about this explanation remotely talks about the Demon's name being literal knowledge/data that determines their existence? I don't see how any of this translates to info type 2.
Click to expand...
I can answer that one. Also I am not associated with this thread, I just wanna see Sonic fly close to the sun and burn then we can do the thread I want

Names not only are the concepts of demons but the very information from where they draw their existence. As Arkham says, "Like heirs to a family, they mold themselves after the meaning of the name", furthermore supported by the fact that changing a Name is "to change the value of everything"


Basically a Name is not only the very concept of a demon but it has the fundamental information that allows them to "exist" in the real world beyond abstract concepts.
 
That doesn’t remotely tell me anything on them being literal knowledge or data of their own existence, this is just more conceptual stuff from what names are.
 
Theglassman12 said:
That doesn’t remotely tell me anything on them being literal knowledge or data of their own existence, this is just more conceptual stuff from what names are.
Click to expand...
The fact that you keep using knowledge as if it was part of type 2

Demons are Names, they create "physical" existences using the information provided by said Name (They mold themselves after the meaning of the Name), there is the fundamental information they get from the concept to "exist" in the world.

Anyways, I explained so either you don't understand, don't know or just disagree so let's agree to disagree.
 
Tony_di_bugalu said:
The fact that you keep using knowledge as if it was part of type 2

Demons are Names, they create "physical" existences using the information provided by said Name (They mold themselves after the meaning of the Name), there is the fundamental information they get from the concept to "exist" in the world.

Anyways, I explained so either you don't understand, don't know or just disagree so let's agree to disagree.
Click to expand...
Really just seems like they're shaped by whatever the concept (names) dictates or means. I mean concepts are basically definitions and words as well. Or definition of what something is.
 
Tony_di_bugalu said:
Concept: A principle or idea

The meaning or definition, is not the concept itself but the description or the information of said concept.
Click to expand...
That's like giving all concept manip info type 2...?

For example what about the concept of some random guy? And that "some random guy" is defined as an average weight 5'8 middle aged man. That's just how a concept is. It's not info type 2.

Edit: Oh yea and concept manip is based on the idea of stuff such as Universals or Essence
 
BestMGQScalerEver said:
That's like giving all concept manip info type 2...?
Click to expand...
I don't care for that tho

If pages change or not that's the wiki's problem, I'm just pointing things by how I understand they work
BestMGQScalerEver said:
For example what about the concept of some random guy? And that "some random guy" is defined as an average weight 5'8 middle aged man. That's just how a concept is. It's not info type 2.
Click to expand...
The concept of "some random guy" is exactly that, some random guy, nothing more and nothing else.

Now, by saying that "some random guy" is defined as such and such then you are giving us information beyond the main idea (or concept) of "some random guy".

Think of a table, it's a table. Now, if I say a table with 3 legs, wood and metal then I'm just expanding on the concept of a table by adding qualities that weren't exactly there before, expanding the information available on the kind of table I'm talking about.


edit: yeah Im taking the wiki's concept page as a reference for this too
 
Tony_di_bugalu said:
I don't care for that tho

If pages change or not that's the wiki's problem, I'm just pointing things by how I understand they work

The concept of "some random guy" is exactly that, some random guy, nothing more and nothing else.

Now, by saying that "some random guy" is defined as such and such then you are giving us information beyond the main idea (or concept) of "some random guy".

Think of a table, it's a table. Now, if I say a table with 3 legs, wood and metal then I'm just expanding on the concept of a table by adding qualities that weren't exactly there before, expanding the information available on the kind of table I'm talking about.


edit: yeah Im taking the wiki's concept page as a reference for this too
Click to expand...
You kinda need attributes or properties to define what a table essentially is though..?
 
Tony_di_bugalu said:
The meaning or definition, is not the concept itself but the description or the information of said concept.
Click to expand...
But it is though?
A chair is only a chair because it has the property of chairness, the property of chairness includes things like what the description of a chair would be, or those other aspects would be other concepts in-of-themselves, a meaning or definition is a concept
Tony_di_bugalu said:
Think of a table, it's a table. Now, if I say a table with 3 legs, wood and metal then I'm just expanding on the concept of a table by adding qualities that weren't exactly there before, expanding the information available on the kind of table I'm talking about.
Click to expand...
Ignoring how a table can't exist in a vacuum (as in, without the context which defines it), sure, you're adding more property and definition, but that doesn't exactly make those extra properties you're adding anything beyond additional concepts, like that of wood or metal

(there is also the issue of demons changing to be like their names, which like, directly shoots the idea of names being conceptual, or at least anything beyond type 3, in the foot because they clearly aren't forms or universals)
 
FinePoint said:
Well, if it consistently affects entire worlds then I can definitely see at least Type 2. Is there also proof they existed before the Demon World? If it also governs that world, it would need to be independent from both to be Type 1.
Click to expand...

I think there’s a misunderstanding here. We are not arguing Demon World precedence but Human World. The Human World refers to our universe while the concept of “names” and “souls” originates from the Demon World which predates it. Let me clarify again, the world changing stuff refers to Demon World, not Human World like how we put it as on the wiki, that was a mistake that we are trying to fix right now. As shown in the scan I provided, it says:

“The world was born out of Darkness.”

In that context, “world” refers to our universe:

"Unending Darkness, A crucible of Chaos. But even to that Primordial Existence there came a ray of light. The universe was eventually split in two. The darkness became the realm of demons... and the light became the domain of mortals. The two worlds existed together for what seemed like an eternity."

This line explains that the primordial state was an Endless Darkness, a chaotic container. Within that chaos, a line of light appeared which eventually caused the world to split in two: Darkness representing the Demon World and Light representing the Human World. The Demon World (The Primordial Existence) isn’t governed by the same metaphysical system as the Human World. Rather, it serves as the point of origin from which those metaphysical aspects like "names" and "souls" emerged from alongside the creation of multiple realms or universes that includes Human World itself.

So just to clarify. When I said "precedes," I was referring to it preceding our world aka Human World, not the Demon World. That alone places it firmly within Type 1 standards. I do have additional evidence supporting this interpretation but I don’t see the need to overload the discussion with more scans unless absolutely necessary if you know what I mean.

On a final note, I do believe I've something that precedes Demon World as well but I'm saving it for another day. For now, I'd suggest that we focus on Human World precedence and how these concepts relate to it.
 
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Deonment said:
But it is though?
A chair is only a chair because it has the property of chairness, the property of chairness includes things like what the description of a chair would be, or those other aspects would be other concepts in-of-themselves, a meaning or definition is a concept
Click to expand...
Since we are getting all philosophy and shit. What makes a chair a chair? Is it the properties of the chair because of it's description (that it has legs, a back or hands/arms)? Is it because you can sit on it? Is it because it is furniture?

I would go with the idea of what a chair is: something you sit on. Everything else are extra details, extra properties granted to that chair by having extra knowledge or information about it like a secretary chair or folding chairs.

After all concepts are just ideas on it's most basic level.

Deonment said:
Ignoring how a table can't exist in a vacuum (as in, without the context which defines it), sure, you're adding more property and definition, but that doesn't exactly make those extra properties you're adding anything beyond additional concepts, like that of wood or metal
Click to expand...
Concepts (as plato defines them) should exist in a vacuum without anything else so using that line of thought a "table" should exist as a concept alone, the thing is I'm not using plato for the Names in DMC (at least I hope not) nor the wiki uses Plato as the basis for the 3 types of conceptual manipulation

As for the second part, adding more properties it to go beyond the idea of what something is. A table is a table, but a table with wood or metal is to go beyond the basic idea of a table as it becomes a wood table or a metal table. The concepts or ideas are wood/metal and table but thanks to the knowledge that it is a wood/metal table is that we can define it as such.

Let's go with the "some random guy" example, some random guy is some random guy but by adding details and information about "some random guy" it stops being "some random guy" and instead becomes the random guy who is x and y but also z.

My point is, we have the concept, the basic idea and we are adding information to it which moves us from a basic idea into something more specific. If we view at it in wiki terms it is like having a concept and using info hax to add properties to create something else.
Deonment said:
(there is also the issue of demons changing to be like their names, which like, directly shoots the idea of names being conceptual, or at least anything beyond type 3, in the foot because they clearly aren't forms or universals)
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The thing is, the physical existence of a demon is what changes, the name stays the same regardless of whatever physical changes the demon does (unless someone else like Mundus or Sparda comes in and changes said name).

The rest would be ignoring how it is stated word for word how the act of changing a name is to change the world and the value of everything.


edit: This kind of discussions are nice and very brain tickling to me, thanks guys
 
Theglassman12 said:
That doesn’t remotely tell me anything on them being literal knowledge or data of their own existence, this is just more conceptual stuff from what names are.
Click to expand...
I believe the information part comes from this line:

"Like the heirs to a family, they model themselves after the meaning of the names"

From my understanding, Names act as some sort of identity blueprint. In that sense, names carry the data or essence of what a being is, which in turn gets passed down like familial traits. And considering how Names means everything to their existence, I think it’s fair to say it holds their personal data as well.
 
Tony_di_bugalu said:
Since we are getting all philosophy and shit. What makes a chair a chair? Is it the properties of the chair because of it's description (that it has legs, a back or hands/arms)? Is it because you can sit on it? Is it because it is furniture?

I would go with the idea of what a chair is: something you sit on. Everything else are extra details, extra properties granted to that chair by having extra knowledge or information about it like a secretary chair or folding chairs.

After all concepts are just ideas on it's most basic level.
Click to expand...
Yeah, and I'm not arguing that, I'm saying that something's meaning is quite literally its concept. The meaning of a chair (ignoring the linguistics side of things for a second) is what it is to be a chair, and that's the same as its concept, which defines/acts as the blueprint for it being a chair.
Tony_di_bugalu said:
My point is, we have the concept, the basic idea and we are adding information to it which moves us from a basic idea into something more specific. If we view at it in wiki terms it is like having a concept and using info hax to add properties to create something else.
Click to expand...
Yeah and I see your point, but that isn't actually info hax, thats concept hax's domain, as it is further elaborating upon the general (the meaning) to reach the specific (the object), it isn't like they are pulling shit out like adding specific words or what have you to the (using the more linguistic interpretation of meaning) to the meaning of the character, no, this is manipulating and changing the meaning as a whole. It's like redefining what it means to be a chair vs just adding on descriptors.
Tony_di_bugalu said:
The thing is, the physical existence of a demon is what changes, the name stays the same regardless of whatever physical changes the demon does (unless someone else like Mundus or Sparda comes in and changes said name).
Click to expand...
Oh I'm not arguing the name changes, I'm arguing that the demon changing to be more in line with their name is the issue, since they can become more akin to their name somehow, it would be like a chair becoming more chair-like, which shoots the idea of them being forms directly in the foot as you either are or aren't something (unless the verse goes into like, emnationist stuff, which I doubt it does)
Tony_di_bugalu said:
The rest would be ignoring how it is stated word for word how the act of changing a name is to change the world and the value of everything.
Click to expand...
To me those statements read less like the names themselves affect reality outside of the demon, and more like statements about the ramifications of the naming itself, them changing the world as this would be providing a name to various strong demons who could potentially go out and change the landscape of the world, same thing for the value of everything statement.
 
@SuperSonicTL everything you said can also apply to concept hax, which is the likelier assumption here given they’re a fundamental part of their existence and has nothing to do with the literal data of their existence.
 
Theglassman12 said:
@SuperSonicTL everything you said can also apply to concept hax, which is the likelier assumption here given they’re a fundamental part of their existence and has nothing to do with the literal data of their existence.
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Probably... I just assumed it means information as well considering the nature of inheritance like familiar trait.

That being said, are you fine with type 1 justification Glass?
 
SuperSonicTL said:
On a final note, I do believe I've something that precedes Demon World as well but I'm saving it for another day. For now, I'd suggest that we focus on Human World precedence and how these concepts relate to it.
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Well, I think technically Type 1 or 2 isn't on its own a measure of transcendence over the regular world.

The page literally says "the reality it governs" which would include the Demon World if it also affects it.

That is to say, it's not impossible for a Type 2 concept to be superior to a Type 1 concept if that Type 2 concept has far greater scope and is also independent from the thing the Type 1 concept is.

So, on a technicality, unless you can prove it's also independent from the Demon World, then I have to say it's Type 2, though I want to be clear that doesn't mean it's automatically weaker than any Type 1 concept.
 
FinePoint said:
Well, I think technically Type 1 or 2 isn't on its own a measure of transcendence over the regular world.

The page literally says "the reality it governs" which would include the Demon World if it also affects it.

That is to say, it's not impossible for a Type 2 concept to be superior to a Type 1 concept if that Type 2 concept has far greater scope and is also independent from the thing the Type 1 concept is.

So, on a technicality, unless you can prove it's also independent from the Demon World, then I have to say it's Type 2, though I want to be clear that doesn't mean it's automatically weaker than any Type 1 concept.
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But why do I need to prove that though? I mean, I understand what you’re trying to say but the wiki’s standards are already structured in a certain way and I’m just going by what’s currently accepted.

The Human World was born from the Demon World. Names and Souls existed long before the Human World even came into being. Names can manipulate and affect the entire Demon World and crucially, they are not reliant on the Human World to function even if they operate within it, they aren’t bound to it. That alone already sets them apart as independent which is the cornerstone of type 1 justification. So by those standards, it’s pretty straightforward.
 
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FinePoint said:
The page literally says "the reality it governs" which would include the Demon World if it also affects it.
Click to expand...
The reality in question on the page does not refer to literal reality but instead the thing the concept in question governs, like fire for the concept of fire, and nothing more

It's confusing terming, but the only thing our current concept types care about is a) is it a universal, and b) is it independent of its particulars
 
I suppose I’ll have to drop the information part for now and move toward a conclusion. But just in case, I’ll wait to see if Glass or Finepoint have anything else to add before we wrap up.
 
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