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Naruto : speed of light removal

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Look another one. It was already weird so much time without a Kirin/Light fang thread.
.Considering this Sasuke’s speed, in the same time frame he can cover 20m. Other characters like Kiba, Temari, and others shinobi cover 20 m, 8 m and 34 m respectively. To prevent spam, I’ll clarify this right here. The comparison to Amaterasu is not about destructive range for several reasons:
The peak speed I took into account is base MHS; I didn’t consider sub-relativistic or higher speeds, which are the ones the characters actually have at that point.
 
To dodge you don't just have to move to the side, it's a large bolt of lightning so you have to cover a good distance
It's generally true. But in this context, specifically, he is talking about the speed of the attack and its timeframe.

"It's impossible to avoid" > "The timeframe is 0,001 s"

If the problem was the range, he would have mentioned it instead of the speed of the attack. You are putting words in his mouth.

EDIT: Also, a sub-rel can cover around 3 km within that time frame, lol.
 
It's generally true. But in this context, specifically, he is talking about the speed of the attack and its timeframe.

"It's impossible to avoid" > "The timeframe is 0,001 s"

If the problem was the range, he would have mentioned it instead of the speed of the attack. You are putting words in his mouth.

Distance is absolutely a factor that matters though, not just timeframes alone. You can't get a speed from solely a timeframe value.
 
Distance is absolutely a factor that matters though, not just timeframes alone. You can't get a speed from solely a timeframe value.
This is a point I addressed. Sasuke is in the middle of the explosion and wasn’t harmed. The damage is concentrated in "one spot" , to sum it up briefly. Following Zetsu’s current speed, he should cover something like 3 km…
 
Distance is absolutely a factor that matters though, not just timeframes alone. You can't get a speed from solely a timeframe value.
It's fair. But...
EDIT: Also, a sub-rel can cover around 3 km within that time frame, lol.
I can see that argument if the speed on their profile is around the tier of the time frame, but apparently, he is treated much faster (Sub-Rel up to FTL+).
 
I’d like to bring up this point again, along with the last point made by Damage, which makes a lot of sense.

Regardless of whether what Zetsu states is reliable or not (even though I’ve already addressed this), he’s considering hypersonic timeframe (1/1000 s or 0,001 s) as fast, in particular, he agrees with Sasuke’s statement that this is something that cannot be dodged or blocked. Even taking the kirin's speed as >SOL, for absurd, he's still stating that generally, dodging within that timeframe is impossible. We have Zetsu's profile at sub-rel, yet an hypersonic timeframe is "unavoidable", and something "faster than sound" is fast.
This would be fine if the manga did not show so much against hypersonic as a hard speed cap. The verse demonstrates numerous speed feats above it and at that tier. In certain instances the word of one character, even if reliable can be ignored as we all acknowledge authors aren't constantly making sure their speed scale is consistent with every single statement. This was only meant to hype up the scale of such an attack and shouldn't be indicative of majority of characters speed.
 
This would be fine if the manga did not show so much against hypersonic as a hard speed cap. The verse demonstrates numerous speed feats above it and at that tier. In certain instances the word of one character, even if reliable can be ignored as we all acknowledge authors aren't constantly making sure their speed scale is consistent with every single statement. This was only meant to hype up the scale of such an attack and shouldn't be indicative of majority of characters speed.
My downgrade doesn’t apply to the characters from Part 2, but to those from Part 1. If this feat is fast in Part 2, then in Part 1 they must be below that level.
 
I disagree overall,
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Nah, I don't have that energy in me anymore 😔
 
The argumentation is crazy. Yeah no for reasons above I don't agree with nuking the databook entirely because it still has a fundamental purpose of giving supplementary information overall, and I also disagree with OPs specific arguments, but I did mention why just the "speed of light" statements from the databooks would be unreliable to use, just as the statement from the manga implying that Madara is omnipotent just for being Madara would also be unreliable

The non-sensical "speed of light" statement-spamming of the databooks would include both Kirin and Light Fang so saying earlier in the thread that "Light Fang was stated SOL by a reliable source" isn't a valid argument when said source is unreliable via spamming "speed of light" for like 10 people anyway, including Haku and BOS Itachi. Now, whether Light Fang qualifies for the other criteria for it being lightspeed is a completely different argument and frankly, nothing I have an opinion on

In short, I agree with Ghost on how we disagree with OPs arguments but I agree with the premise for a similar, but a different reason
 
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It's generally true. But in this context, specifically, he is talking about the speed of the attack and its timeframe.

"It's impossible to avoid" > "The timeframe is 0,001 s"

If the problem was the range, he would have mentioned it instead of the speed of the attack. You are putting words in his mouth.
Like Damage said, a timeframe alone means nothing without distance taken into account
EDIT: Also, a sub-rel can cover around 3 km within that time frame, lol.
Sure, but either way travel speed is a bit inconsistent. Shunshin in short bursts is faster than combat speed, but depending on distance, it could be slower than sound, like how it takes Kage level shinobi days to travel across countries. Even crossing 10 kilometers, the Konoha team in Fated Battle Between Brothers seemed to take a decent number of seconds to reach the Uchiha hideout.
 
My downgrade doesn’t apply to the characters from Part 2, but to those from Part 1. If this feat is fast in Part 2, then in Part 1 they must be below that level.
Oh I know, I'm saying the story portrays the speed of Kirin to be dodgeable. You cite what Zetsu says and I'm saying there are calcs and statements contradicting that. There's temari's calc, there's Gaara's calc but then there's Itachi's water bullet being stated light speed, there's the statement of anbu being light speed, there's Kakashi's intercepting lightning feat, and there's Haku's light speed statement as well. It doesn't matter if you agree with these statements or not, the main point is they show a clear narrative for the characters being at a higher speed.
For now, I can accept that some characters might be above this level. But a ninjutsu that Sasuke uses to defeat a ninja who’s already a top-tier since the first arc, when compared to Amaterasu, has to be something he considers at least extremely fast. The Part 1 ninjas shouldn’t stand a chance against this.The evaluations of PT1 are largely supported by calculations
You don't even say who should be downgraded from this. Should all the sannin not be sub-rel? Should Itachi not be rel in part1? Or Hiruzen? I know Kakashi's scaling to himself in part 2, do you think he should be downgraded?
 
My downgrade doesn’t apply to the characters from Part 2, but to those from Part 1. If this feat is fast in Part 2, then in Part 1 they must be below that level.
If i’m not mistaken, the only part 1 characters who scale faster than lightning are those who scale to kakashi and his calc. Do you propose we either just remove all of those characters scaling to kakashi in part 1, create a separate key for kakashis speed in part 1, or just remove the false darkness calc entirely, which would affect part 2 characters? None of those options seem to really make much sense to me. You also say that kirin is fast in part 2, which has mostly characters that scale multiple times the speed of lighting.
 
A lot of the light speed statements in the Databook don’t really make sense when applied to the manga, so I’m pretty sure light speed is just Kishi way of saying super speed like with lightning speed
 
That seems to be a big problem with the scaling but from what I remember, there was a crt which had discussions about why Kakashi hadn't gotten faster/stronger.
 
Like Damage said, a timeframe alone means nothing without distance taken into account

Sure, but either way travel speed is a bit inconsistent. Shunshin in short bursts is faster than combat speed, but depending on distance, it could be slower than sound, like how it takes Kage level shinobi days to travel across countries. Even crossing 10 kilometers, the Konoha team in Fated Battle Between Brothers seemed to take a decent number of seconds to reach the Uchiha hideout.
IF that's the case, the profiles should reflect that and have a lower rating for Travel Speed, for things like over tens of meters or something, you do you.
 
I feel like there should be a sandbox to more clearly show what OP wants changed it is kind of confusing how they want the scaling to be changed.
 
A lot of the light speed statements in the Databook don’t really make sense when applied to the manga, so I’m pretty sure light speed is just Kishi way of saying super speed like with lightning speed
This is dismissive of the statements in a way. I understand the idea but he can just as well say "god-like" or "unimaginable speed" to keep it ambiguous but he doesn't, the databooks deliberately state these jutsus as speed of light and I think that's intentional to assert a tangible idea of speed.
 
If i’m not mistaken, the only part 1 characters who scale faster than lightning are those who scale to kakashi and his calc. Do you propose we either just remove all of those characters scaling to kakashi in part 1, create a separate key for kakashis speed in part 1, or just remove the false darkness calc entirely, which would affect part 2 characters? None of those options seem to really make much sense to me. You also say that kirin is fast in part 2, which has mostly characters that scale multiple times the speed of lighting.
Then I get accused… but it’s not your fault. Anyway, no ,I wrote it in the first message, and whoever liked it should know that. If it were SOLightning for example, a high hyper+ would write it
 
This is dismissive of the statements in a way. I understand the idea but he can just as well say "god-like" or "unimaginable speed" to keep it ambiguous but he doesn't, the databooks deliberately state these jutsus as speed of light and I think that's intentional to assert a tangible idea of speed.
I think the point he is making is that "Speed of Light" in this context is also meant to just emphasise the speed of something in a figurative way; this is already established to be a definition in Japanese itself so "speed of light" isn't mono-defined
 
IF that's the case, the profiles should reflect that and have a lower rating for Travel Speed, for things like over tens of meters or something, you do you.
It's a bit hard to categorize that since it's not that consistent, sometimes characters can Shunshin at high speed over tens of meters. Having a note that they can't maintain their speed indefinitely would be good though.
 
This is dismissive of the statements in a way. I understand the idea but he can just as well say "god-like" or "unimaginable speed" to keep it ambiguous but he doesn't, the databooks deliberately state these jutsus as speed of light and I think that's intentional to assert a tangible idea of speed.
A lot of authors out there use light speed instead of what you mentioned to convey super speed it's nothing new brother
 
I think the point he is making is that "Speed of Light" in this context is also meant to just emphasise the speed of something in a figurative way; this is already established to be a definition in Japanese itself so "speed of light" isn't mono-defined
This can also be used as an abstract noun that doesn't have to be figurative.

A lot of authors out there use light speed instead of what you mentioned to convey super speed it's nothing new brother
Then we'd look to context to see a contradiction or disconnection. And a lot of authors also use what I said too, Ichigo's bankai, Killua's Kanmuru form, Zenitsu godlike speed technique. You're kinda missing the point. Author's don't just throw out words for fun when they're describing something in detail as the databooks literally meant for that. Maybe other verses with little info on abilities I'd agree the statements are less acknowledgeable.
 
If it were SOLightning for example, a high hyper+ would write it
But like I said before, the only characters at or beyond lightning speed are those who scale to kakashi’s calc, so how would that be handled. And kirin is portrayed as fast compared to characters who scale to that same calc. And what about kirin being calced faster than lightning.
 
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This can also be used as an abstract noun that doesn't have to be figurative.
Almost all attempts to apply the literal meaning of SOL from information from the databooks have failed because of contradictions in the narrative (SOL Haku, SOL Itachi, SOL Raikage etc.), and in fact I would like to believe Light Fang suffers from the same issue because they are meant to be far faster than it to the point that using a SOL attack is non-sensical. Not only that, the very fact that the databook allows the figurative meaning of "speed of light" means you can never 100% determine if an attack explained in the databook would actually be the speed of light or not so the argument just becomes weak
Then we'd look to context to see a contradiction or disconnection. And a lot of authors also use what I said too, Ichigo's bankai, Killua's Kanmuru form, Zenitsu godlike speed technique. You're kinda missing the point. Author's don't just throw out words for fun when they're describing something in detail as the databooks literally meant for that. Maybe other verses with little info on abilities I'd agree the statements are less acknowledgeable.
We don't roll with whataboutism here. Those people have different reasons as to why "speed of light" should be literal and that has nothing to do with Naruto's examples
 
We don't roll with whataboutism here. Those people have different reasons as to why "speed of light" should be literal and that has nothing to do with Naruto's examples
That isn't whataboutism... they're examples for other authors using phrases to denote speed without using speed of light lmao
 
But like I said before, the only characters at or beyond lightning speed are those who scale to kakashi’s calc, so how would that be handled. And kirin is portrayed as fast compared to characters who scale to that same calc
I wouldn’t touch characters like Kakashi or any references to Naruto Part 2. Only those from Part 1
 
The chains are strange; you go through 5 profiles, and the justification remains unclear

That's just most series in general that don't have references and precise figures for the ratings in notes.
 
IDGAF about Kirin (Handled it in the past way too many times to care and others can do it better than me) but I agree with M3X on Light Fang being legit SoL. A blatant statement of it being light speed effectively ensures you don't need the other qualifying criteria and that not even the disqualifying criteria would be able to do anything about it. Direct speed statements render every other criteria irrelevant.

Every other argument against it has already been debunked in detail by many others and I simply do not find the opposition's response to them convincing enough.
 
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Yeah, after reading through more of the posts I also firmly disagree with the OP on Light Fang.
 
That notion about Light Speed statements should apply to Kirin, then, too.

Especially with the context surrounding the Zetsu statement not really being a definitive or reliable statement, that has an "iffy at best, horrifically contradictory at worst", consistency with the rest of the series.
 



Wait, can we actually wake up for a second? Like what are we even doing?
Zetsu’s statement only explains how real-world lightning works, lightning that forms and falls naturally, without any chakra manipulation
But Sasuke literally shapes the lightning into a dragon, meaning he’s applying change in chakra form even to a natural phenomenon.

So while Kirin originates as natural lightning, it’s then molded, guided, and controlled by chakra, merging natural energy with chakra manipulation. You can literally see the chakra threads linking from Sasuke’s hand to the lightning.
That’s what separates Kirin from ordinary lightning , it’s not just “natural” anymore, it’s a Lightning Release ninjutsu( even described in the Databook as a Ninjustu)
  • (Author through Zetsu): Real-life lightning = sub-relativistic speed
  • (Author in three separate official materials): Kirin = Light-speed
Case closed.
 
Three more things.

Firstly, secondary canon is still canon, just that primary canon gets precedent in case of contradictions, but that doesn't mean we toss out the secondary canon out altogether, that's not how any of this works. Accept what lines up with the source material, don't accept what doesn't. If you don't like this and you consider this cherry-picking, then sorry, but it is what it is, that's literally how secondary canon works, and that isn't going to change anytime soon.

Secondly...

No statements regarding this. The term “light,” besides often being used figuratively, can also refer to something luminous or shining.

Burden of proof is on you to show that the series truly means it in a figurative sense and not literally, especially with how blatantly it is laid out without any contradictions to show of.

Thirdly, when a blatant speed statement is made without further contradictions, where the attack originates from is irrelevant. Fiction owes you nothing with regards to how you think a speed feat should be determined.
 
  • (Author through Zetsu): Real-life lightning = sub-relativistic speed
Not really related to the thread but wouldn't this effect every naruto lightning dodging feat if the author gives his own speed value to in-verse lightning?
I'm assuming that's what you mean by saying the author has lightning at sub-rel speed when the wiki has lightning at MHS+

Kirin's speed even via the zetsu statement is faster than normal irl lightning
 
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