A Few Undertale Revisions?

[ThePerpetual]

Just a few things.

A: Shouldn't Undyne have a Weakness to Heat, not a resistance? At least relative to other characters of her durability, she seems to have a much harder time staying conscious in Hotland; even Sans can pretty casually tank said heat. The Mettaton microwave feat could honestly be considered a simple durability feat for characters across the board, along with Hotland, with actual residents of Hotland having a more pronounced heat resistance.

B: Here's a nifty Multi-City Block feat for Lesser Dog that got accepted a while ago. It could probably help flesh out the stats a little bit, for lower tiers?

C: Frisk's page could probably benefit from their different stats being sorted into different tabbers, I would think. Just so it looks a bit nicer.

D: ...am I the only one that thinks Sans's flashing eye-art is sort of obnoxious? Or rather, its at least not really suitable as the "main" art for his page. That's the sort of thing I'd expect to see in the Gallery section. Most of the other UT pages, too, use the simpler black/white sprites as the main art for the character pages where applicable.

 

[Anonimoe7875]

"The Mettaton microwave feat could honestly be considered a simple durability feat."

There is one thing I don't get...

Why does the characters even have resistance?

We are currently treating the microwave feat as a durability feat.

But resistance means that it shouldn't be a durability feat, since well, the characters have resistance to it.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

It does raise the questions whether something that can be resisted be considered Durability. Or if resistance to heat is even a thing.

 

[RRTheEndMan]

yes, surviving the heat of the Sun=Heat resistance. Isn't that weird?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

The heat resistance thing should really just be durability coupled with stamina.

Giving Frisk a few keys is probably fine.

The MCB feat for Lesser Dog looks good.

Also consistent with the Small Town level feat of Tsunderplane, and further supports the tier of certain characters such as Papyrus.

Sans' profile image has his flashing eye for the sole reason that I made it so comparatively early after the game's release, a decent render or image of his normal battle sprite wasn't available, at the time. It can easily be swapped.

 

[Jamesthetaker]

Can MCB feat applied for 1-10 attack value character?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Doesn't Lesser Dog have an attack value of 12?

 

[Jamesthetaker]

Doesn't Lesser Dog have an attack value of 12?

He just slightly higher than Napstablook,who is has an attack value of 10,not very far behind many of Snowdin's weaker monsters.All Ruins monsters should be somewhat compare to Napstablook.

Also i think that Waterfall Moldsmal should be Likely 8-B since he has 12 attack value,putting him on par with Lesser Dog.

 

[Jamesthetaker]

Bump

 

[Jamesthetaker]

Unrelated but can someone send me a links to thread where "Sans need LV to kill or anything related about his powers and KARMA?

I need them to....Uhm researching.

 

[Anonimoe7875]

There isn't a thread about that, just one thread saying that is baseless.

 

[Jamesthetaker]

Oh okay then.

 

[Jamesthetaker]

Bumping this thread.

 

[RRTheEndMan]

yes, surviving the heat of the Sun=Heat resistance. Isn't that weird?

 

[Anonimoe7875]

Multiples charaters being completely immune to the heat of Sun and one even sleeping there = resistance.

 

[RRTheEndMan]

in fact I was ironic

 

[Jamesthetaker]

Surprise that there is nobody come for MCB feat.

 

[ThePerpetual]

There's actually quite a few really wonky scalings in here that seem to go in circles, among the lower tiers... scaling people to "not far below Papyrus" and the like. If stats are a literal in-game mechanism for measuring power, shouldn't people be scaled towards the two characters with actual feats to demonstrate what so-and-so level of power looks like, i.e. Lesser Dog's MCB/Hypersonic and Tsunderplane's Small Town/MHS+? Rather than going in circles, looking for this stuff?

...actually, come to think of it, do we have any reason to assume that characters well below Tsunderplane in overall power (25 AT, 26 DF) scale to her speed? That doesn't really seem to be founded based on anything except "they both fought Frisk", who in-verse has reactive/fluctuating power levels based on their Determination.

 

[ThePerpetual]

I don't think so, no. The best feat AT 1/DF 1 characters have is no-selling Hotland. Which, mind, is still impressive-

I'm more saying that we can't make the jump from that, to "must be close enough to Lesser Dog's 12 AT to warrant a tier jump." That's not at all how we do power-scaling in any other verse on the wiki, even with canon power levels or its equivalent as Undertale does, so it seems a pretty inconsistent application of site standards without an explanation that I've found yet.

 

[Jamesthetaker]

Ok then

 

[Antvasima]

You can ask Azathoth to comment here again, if you need his help.

 

[Jamesthetaker]

Yeah i do it but i kinda busy right now.

 

[ThePerpetual]

I should also clarify, I don't think that wholly removing the way we do things now is necessary, per se, just that we shouldn't go ahead and assert that these scaled in-between ratings are fact based on in-game stat scaling, when they lack the feats to back them up. That'd be closer to the sort of thing we would use a "likely" or "possibly" rating for, in most cases.

Right now, what I think I'm seeing for the character's AP/Dura here in correlation with their AT/DF stats via Frisk's "Check" command based on the information I have/what I'm seeing in some of these past threads:

1: Building level casually. This is the level required to resist constantly living in Hotland without any more ill effects than a resident of Arizona/the Middle East/some other naturally hot location might experience.

A little bit above 1: Building level, possibly higher.

A fair ways above 1, but still well below 12: At least Building level, possibly Multi-City Block level

Only slightly below 12: At least Building level, likely Multi-City Block level.

12: Multi-City Block level. This is the value that Lesser Dog's feat came out to.

A little bit above 12: At least Multi-City Block, possibly higher

A fair ways above 12, but still well below 25: At least Multi-City Block level, possibly Small Town level

Just shy of 25: At least Multi-City Block level, likely Small Town level

25: Small Town level. This would be Tsunderplane's 2+ kiloton feat

A little bit above 25: At least Small Town level, possibly higher

A fair ways above 25: At least Small Town level, possibly Town level

Well beyond 25: At least Small Town level, likely Town level. We can't technically prove they surpassed Tsunderplane by any arbitrarily assigned amount, but it still seems intuitive to me that a character so far above another character within the lore ought to be able to close a tier gap less than 3x as large at its peak (2 Kilotons - 5.8 Kilotons) given much larger jumps have been made in the past with smaller jumps of in-game statistics.

See, I'm just wondering if this should be done with speeds, as well. Do we have enough justification to assume that characters like Greater Dog are as fast as Tsunderplane? We do have another speed feat to work with now (Lesser Dog's Hypersonic), so it's not like they'd have to sit at Unknown. I guess one could argue speed is seperate from power overall in the verse, but thus far characters with higher AP feats also consistently demonstrate higher speed feats, so that assumption seems iffy here, to me.

(The obvious exception of course, here, is Sans, both by feats [casually dodged attacks from a bloodlusted, very determined Frisk/maybe full-powered Chara?] and just by common sense [what with his space-time whatever powers.)I guess we would probably have to do something similar for Undertale's higher tiers- "At least Small Town level, likely Town level" or something to that tune for characters well beyond Tsunderplane, since

 

[Jamesthetaker]

I agree that any characters stronger than Tsunderplane's should have higher stats.

 

[RRTheEndMan]

I guess that carbon alloys>>>steel then because they resist the heat of the sun...

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

@Perpetual

The AP thing seems fine.

I'm not sure it applies to speed, though. Thinking back on it, speed in Undertale does not directly correlate with how strong you are. Sans has the de facto lowest attack value in the game, but is also the fastest non-Immeasurable character in the game.

If a character fights Frisk, they should probably just scale to that speed, or at worst receive a "likely" or "possibly", with the exception of them being shown to be far faster or far stronger.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I guess that carbon alloys>>>steel then because they resist the heat of the sun...

Are you implying that a human being enduring something nearly as hot as the sun blowing up in their face isn't a durability feat or...?

 

[Therefir]

I wonder why we don't use the tarot card art as the profile image for everyone...

 

[RRTheEndMan]

Are you implying that a human being enduring something nearly as hot as the sun blowing up in their face isn't a durability feat

 

[ThePerpetual]

Again, I would argue that both actual feats demonstrated and just thinking logically about Sans's power-set/role in the narrative give us enough reason to ignore for him what seems to be a consistent rule for much of the rest of the verse.

I do actually have a few more questions about Sans, but maybe that's best saved for another thread...?

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Pretty sure there is a couple of feats of lower tier character being comparable in speed to higher tier. Alphys helping the others protect Frisk and Monster Kid jumping between Undyne and Frisk on top of my head.

 

[Jamesthetaker]

Again, I would argue that both actual feats demonstrated and just thinking logically about Sans's power-set/role in the narrative give us enough reason to ignore for him what seems to be a consistent rule for much of the rest of the verse.
I do actually have a few more questions about Sans, but maybe that's best saved for another thread...?

Yeah you should

 

[Jamesthetaker]

Bumping this thread

 

[Jamesthetaker]

Bump