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Dan vs Ditto?
- Thread starter Jasonsith
- Start date
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@Jasonsith: So, Ditto starts Transformed, then?
If that's true, then I suppose this comes down to:
1. How well does Ditto know Dan's techniques? Knowing it can perform them & doing so is one thing. Properly implementing them in an actual fight is another, especially against the creator of the style of martial art those techniques come from. Even if said creator (Namely, Dan.) may be a lackluster fighter, it's possible he may understand how better to use his techniques than Ditto.
2. The individual Ditto, & Dan. Quoting some of Ditto's Pokedex Entries, which will be in italics:
"Its transformation ability is perfect. However, if made to laugh, it can't maintain its disguise."
Is there anything Dan is likely to do that would make Ditto laugh? Aren't his specific ki attacks named off of/based on fart jokes? Doesn't he do a lot of silly taunting? Does he make humorous quips in battle? Is he humorously incompetent or clumsy? Would he pick up on it if Ditto being amused started to make its transformation "debstabilize" mid-fight?
"While it can transform into anything, each Ditto apparently has its own strengths and weaknesses when it comes to transformations."
3. I think this should be self-explanatory. Although, it may be irrelevant, since we can't quantify how skilled the Ditto is, & we may just be using the most skilled Ditto anyway.
"It transforms into whatever it sees. If the thing it's transforming into isn't right in front of it, Ditto relies on its memory—so sometimes it fails."
4. Supposing Ditto's transformation was undone, & it lost track of Dan somehow, this might be a problem, as it would have to resort to becoming an imperfect Dan, or other thing it's seen to transform into. We do know that, in-character Ditto will turn into a stone when asleep, to avoid being attacked, at least.
(For, a perhaps implausible example of why Ditto might lose track of Dan while detransformed, perhaps Dan runs in terror & hides upon seeing a duplicate of himself laugh & turn into a blob.)
Currently, I don't have a vote since I'm unsure how to consider those factors.
If that's true, then I suppose this comes down to:
1. How well does Ditto know Dan's techniques? Knowing it can perform them & doing so is one thing. Properly implementing them in an actual fight is another, especially against the creator of the style of martial art those techniques come from. Even if said creator (Namely, Dan.) may be a lackluster fighter, it's possible he may understand how better to use his techniques than Ditto.
2. The individual Ditto, & Dan. Quoting some of Ditto's Pokedex Entries, which will be in italics:
"Its transformation ability is perfect. However, if made to laugh, it can't maintain its disguise."
Is there anything Dan is likely to do that would make Ditto laugh? Aren't his specific ki attacks named off of/based on fart jokes? Doesn't he do a lot of silly taunting? Does he make humorous quips in battle? Is he humorously incompetent or clumsy? Would he pick up on it if Ditto being amused started to make its transformation "debstabilize" mid-fight?
"While it can transform into anything, each Ditto apparently has its own strengths and weaknesses when it comes to transformations."
3. I think this should be self-explanatory. Although, it may be irrelevant, since we can't quantify how skilled the Ditto is, & we may just be using the most skilled Ditto anyway.
"It transforms into whatever it sees. If the thing it's transforming into isn't right in front of it, Ditto relies on its memory—so sometimes it fails."
4. Supposing Ditto's transformation was undone, & it lost track of Dan somehow, this might be a problem, as it would have to resort to becoming an imperfect Dan, or other thing it's seen to transform into. We do know that, in-character Ditto will turn into a stone when asleep, to avoid being attacked, at least.
(For, a perhaps implausible example of why Ditto might lose track of Dan while detransformed, perhaps Dan runs in terror & hides upon seeing a duplicate of himself laugh & turn into a blob.)
Currently, I don't have a vote since I'm unsure how to consider those factors.
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Ditto just transform into another pokemon from it's memories
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Ditto should legitimately be stronger than Dan even in base.
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@Saikou: How come? We DO list Ditto as Unknown, & it just has Metal Powder &/or Quick Powder (Depending on if we say it can have both work for it -albeit, still only in base- at the same time.) to boost it.
What if Ditto is only as strong as Magikarp, or an early game 1st stage Bug Pokemon like Caterpie, or Baby Pokemon?
Dan is At Least 9-B. What are the exact values (if any) he & the 9-B Pokemon are scaled to?
@Ricsi-viragosi: Ditto's Transformations from memory being imperfect aside, why would it? I mean, for one, that assumes this IS a Ditto that has seen other Pokemon. What if it was only recently hatched then thrown into this battle?
But as Dan fighting Dan, it'd be a somewhat even match. Ditto's main disadvantages would be possibly not knowing Dan's techniques or how to use them as well as he can, possibly the unspecified strengths & weaknesses of its Transformation unique to each individual Ditto, or, Ditto laughing & untransforming, especially if it loses track of Dan afterwards.
What if Ditto is only as strong as Magikarp, or an early game 1st stage Bug Pokemon like Caterpie, or Baby Pokemon?
Dan is At Least 9-B. What are the exact values (if any) he & the 9-B Pokemon are scaled to?
@Ricsi-viragosi: Ditto's Transformations from memory being imperfect aside, why would it? I mean, for one, that assumes this IS a Ditto that has seen other Pokemon. What if it was only recently hatched then thrown into this battle?
But as Dan fighting Dan, it'd be a somewhat even match. Ditto's main disadvantages would be possibly not knowing Dan's techniques or how to use them as well as he can, possibly the unspecified strengths & weaknesses of its Transformation unique to each individual Ditto, or, Ditto laughing & untransforming, especially if it loses track of Dan afterwards.
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That's because we're dumb. Ditto still has regular stats and can take hits from other Pokémon before using transform. In fact, due to his low speed, most Dittos would actually need to take a hit from other Pokémon before transforming.
Absolute fodder Pokémon are 9-B and even some humans are 9-Bs. And it honestly makes no sense for Ditto to be weaker than all of those. 8-A from first stage mons is honestly a minimum.
Absolute fodder Pokémon are 9-B and even some humans are 9-Bs. And it honestly makes no sense for Ditto to be weaker than all of those. 8-A from first stage mons is honestly a minimum.
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Pretty sure it's unknown because we don't know where it stands between 6-Cs and 8-As.
As for assuming he fought other pokemon. That is a must, ditto is supposed to be a wild version of it, and there is no possible way for it to not have at least seen pokemon. The profile doesn't assume they are babies.
And they are imperfect in looks, not skills
As for assuming he fought other pokemon. That is a must, ditto is supposed to be a wild version of it, and there is no possible way for it to not have at least seen pokemon. The profile doesn't assume they are babies.
And they are imperfect in looks, not skills
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- Thread starter
- #9
Weaker Pokemon can vary from 10-C to 9-B (as seen in Magikarp and Wishiwashi). So technically it may make sense for Ditto to transform into Dan. 9-B form should be safe to start for base Ditto. (This is Ditto, not Mew.)
This is still a wild Ditto and has experience fighting with other tiers of Pokemon.
This is still a wild Ditto and has experience fighting with other tiers of Pokemon.
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It can still transform back. If not, transforming into a rock to go to sleep would be suicidal.
Pretty sure all the places with Ditto have at least 8-A pokemon, and the ditto itself is blatantly above 8-A's and doesn't get one-shot even if not transformed.
Pretty sure all the places with Ditto have at least 8-A pokemon, and the ditto itself is blatantly above 8-A's and doesn't get one-shot even if not transformed.
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@Saikou: Has Ditto been shown taking hits from other Pokemon while untransformed outside of gameplay, however? I mean, it's often brought up that, in gameplay, Magikarp can KO Arceus & the like. So have we actually seen Untransformed Ditto take hits in other mediums? I'd readily accept that as a basis, if so.
Also, "When it spots an enemy, its body transfigures into an almost perfect copy of its opponent.", & "It transforms into whatever it sees. If the thing it's transforming into isn't right in front of it, Ditto relies on its memory—so sometimes it fails."
Not to mention, AFAIK, we ignore in-game base stats, since otherwise, we get stuff like Jolteon being as fast as Mewtwo. But it's definitely possible for Ditto to get assaulted before it Transforms, I agree. But it's dubious what it survives before Transformation, IMHO; Without any feats of it doing so, it's an assumption that it can.
Although I suppose the areas it being in having 8-A Pokemon is some reason.
In any case, what makes us sure Ditto will have the smarts to change forms? It would be in a mostly even match.
And between the possibility of Dan making it laugh & destablizing its transformation & the Pokedex saying "so sometimes it fails" if it tries to Transform from memory, isn't it likely there'll be some time where it isn't Transformed?
And if Dan's only chance to win is on Ditto assuming a more-or-less equal form & staying in it until Dan beats it AND Dan can't harm it, isn't this kind of stompish? Why or why not? (Supposing we aren't just using profiles as is.)
Lastly, if we're gonna give it a tier for its base form & add in the various stuff from the Pokedex -the various weaknesses, being able to Transform with some level of success & accuracy from memory-, shouldn't there be a revision for that?
Pardon all the words, please.
Also, "When it spots an enemy, its body transfigures into an almost perfect copy of its opponent.", & "It transforms into whatever it sees. If the thing it's transforming into isn't right in front of it, Ditto relies on its memory—so sometimes it fails."
Not to mention, AFAIK, we ignore in-game base stats, since otherwise, we get stuff like Jolteon being as fast as Mewtwo. But it's definitely possible for Ditto to get assaulted before it Transforms, I agree. But it's dubious what it survives before Transformation, IMHO; Without any feats of it doing so, it's an assumption that it can.
Although I suppose the areas it being in having 8-A Pokemon is some reason.
In any case, what makes us sure Ditto will have the smarts to change forms? It would be in a mostly even match.
And between the possibility of Dan making it laugh & destablizing its transformation & the Pokedex saying "so sometimes it fails" if it tries to Transform from memory, isn't it likely there'll be some time where it isn't Transformed?
And if Dan's only chance to win is on Ditto assuming a more-or-less equal form & staying in it until Dan beats it AND Dan can't harm it, isn't this kind of stompish? Why or why not? (Supposing we aren't just using profiles as is.)
Lastly, if we're gonna give it a tier for its base form & add in the various stuff from the Pokedex -the various weaknesses, being able to Transform with some level of success & accuracy from memory-, shouldn't there be a revision for that?
Pardon all the words, please.
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The thing is that assuming that Ditto gets vaporized by another attacks from fodder Pokémon is a ridiculous assumption by itself.
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I thought you said 9-B were the fodder. 8-A aren't that much of a fodder themselves, surely? Not to mention, unless it's ambushed, it usually transforms first thing, & if it's sleeping, it wants to avoid attacks. Without showings of untransformed Ditto surviving attacks, isn't it possible Untransformed Ditto do get very quickly defeated by 8-A or higher Pokemon, but Transformed Ditto survive?
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9-Bs are like, utter bottom of the barel fodders. These things shouldn't even fight.
8-As includes your average mons like Ratata, Pidgey and such. Ditto being killed by a poke from those things makes no sense.
8-As includes your average mons like Ratata, Pidgey and such. Ditto being killed by a poke from those things makes no sense.
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Meh. Well, I'd still prefer there being a showing of it surviving untransformed stuff. (If we wanted to joke, we could scale Ditto to Mewtwo, since both are in Cerulean Cave. Or Kyurem because Giant Chasm, lol.)
But yes, there is a great myriad of locations Ditto is found in, & weak Pokemon we could scale to, if location correlations are any basis.
In any case, shouldn't such durability make it a stomp, given Ditto would only lose if it chose to stay as Dan & didn't realize it would lose & thus, didn't switch forms? (And Dan making it laugh might hurt his chances since it might bring Ditto back into base.)
But yes, there is a great myriad of locations Ditto is found in, & weak Pokemon we could scale to, if location correlations are any basis.
In any case, shouldn't such durability make it a stomp, given Ditto would only lose if it chose to stay as Dan & didn't realize it would lose & thus, didn't switch forms? (And Dan making it laugh might hurt his chances since it might bring Ditto back into base.)
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At times, sheer logic should just supersede lack of feats. Especially since you can't really show a can of Ditto surviving hits from other mons because we can't use anime scaling and mons hardly fight outside of battles.
And yeah that was my point. The only way Dan wins is if Ditto lowers itself to Dan's level and stays that way the whole fight.
And yeah that was my point. The only way Dan wins is if Ditto lowers itself to Dan's level and stays that way the whole fight.
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Well you can't say "This Ditto survived a hit from a Gyarados in the anime so all Dittos are High 6-C now". You can only scale individuals like legendaries.
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A specific Ditto that has consistent showings on that level, for example. Ash's Pikachu is High 6-C despite most Pikachus being 8-A for example.
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I really don't know these two, but Ditto transforms into Dan and he properly uses the Raging Demon technique without failing and obliterates Dan.
Not voting, but I'm siding on Ditto.
Not voting, but I'm siding on Ditto.
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Dan could proboably make Ditto laugh due to his incompetence and taunts, and if Ditto goes back to normal, most of Dan's attacks are proboably fighting type when equalized to Pokenon. If that happens then Ditto proboably loses. But other then that, assuming he doesn't copy the intelligence, Ditto should win for that reason and reasons above.
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Types are not equlized.
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- Thread starter
- #28
A CRT is being made for Ditto. Please comment.
(If Ditto is upgraded then this thread would be a massive stomp in Ditto's favour and may potentially affect a lot of matchups.)
(If Ditto is upgraded then this thread would be a massive stomp in Ditto's favour and may potentially affect a lot of matchups.)
