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DMC Downgrade... kinda

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HelloThere1089 said:
I think the scaling needs to be better established in a new thread. If you can create a link between POC HF and mainline HF by showing that the nature of HF hasn't changed since before the split in the timelines, then they should scale just fine.
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I would create the link via the MWI-esque nature of DMC cosmology and link it via 3 Dante who would eventually engage in the events of 1.
 
Couple more questions before I recap. First, who was that guy in the Discord screenshot saying the DMC5 Dante in PoC is the main one, and does he have any authority? Second, do we have any direct reason to believe Mundus or other demon kings are stronger than Hellfilth, as opposed to Hellfilth being just the new strongerest monster of the week?
 
Follow_Doctor_Freeman said:
Couple more questions before I recap. First, who was that guy in the Discord screenshot saying the DMC5 Dante in PoC is the main one, and does he have any authority?
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He is a moderator of official PoC Discord server and is trusted by devs themselves with information regarding PoC as written on the Q&A. He also claims to know the best lore among all which he did supported with interesting details that many of us had overseen. So, his words have merits although he is clueless regarding recent events to an extent since not every information comes to him at once.

Follow_Doctor_Freeman said:
Second, do we have any direct reason to believe Mundus or other demon kings are stronger than Hellfilth, as opposed to Hellfilth being just the new strongerest monster of the week?
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This is where the problem comes... Helfilth did jumped them during post-dmc3 & pre-dmc1 variants but we never seen afterwards what happened. Dante just dropped himself into the "rifts" between worlds where the laws of space and time are "different". On that place, he got Agni & Rudra whereas Vergil either escaped or fought Helfilth—no one knows what happened.

Now, the next time they met again is when they are in their DMC5 era where they start another fight (it needs to be noted that Vergil already had SDT and it feels like Dante also got it right there but its vague soo think whatever with it). Then Helfilth came, dropped them across another timeline, they fought, he lost, sealed them away, Dante escaped the sealed dimension through Broken Gear's power and you know the rest.
 
Unoriginal777 said:
Cause if memory serves me right standards have shown me differently.
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The example you gave is that the alternate MCU character feats cannot backscale to the canon characters because they're different. The only constants are the multiverse they're in.

If the argument is that the DMC multiverse is 2-A, you might have something there, I guess. But unless mainline DMC affects that 2-A structure, then they still wouldn't scale to that rating.
 
Recap time. There are two conversations happening in this thread: scaling & canonicity.

Turns out that PoC might be less of a mess for internal scaling than it initially seemed. People were saying earlier that DMC3 chars scaled, but they don't really fight onscreen. Only clear-cut contenders/winners over Hellfilth are DMC5 Dante & Vergil (who seem to both have Sin Devil Trigger forms by this point so the idea might be that this is after the ending in 5 where they go to battle in the demon world). Oh, and Lady fought Hellfilth's mental-attack illusion thing but that's not a 2-A feat. If we were to incorporate PoC into mainline pages, the only changes would be to either buff some DMC5 keys across the board or add a new PoC/post-Sin Devil Trigger-only key for Dante, Vergil, and probably Nero after the 5s. They're stronger than anything earlier in the series anyway. Weird to go from consistent, if not necessarily kneecapped, 2-C AP (normal universe + infinite demon universe + normal-sized Mundus battle universe + various at least T4 realms in the Temen-Ni-Gru, Mallet Island, Savior, etc) and a 2-A cosmology that no one explicitly scaled to (DMC2 novel via MWI) to 2-A AP in just the latest monster-of-the-week, but that's power creep for you. Could be as surprisingly straight-forward as "new strongerer thing" instead of retconning stats with the earlier incarnations not scaling anyway.

So the main thing this boils down to is VSBW standards for canonicity of this kind of thing, which will determine if we go with new keys or new pages. Ball's in your court according to how you do things -- remember my telling you upgrader guys to pay close attention to precedent? -- but as mentioned this isn't as tangled as it initially seemed. But I can understand with not finding this weird jumbled un-numbered Chinese mobile spinoff to be representative of the main games. So you review the OP and other remarks on canonicity such as that FAQ mod guy's comment in mind to decide if we go with a few self-contained keys on existing pages or new pages in general. Note that the latter will be identical to mainline anyway aside from post-SDT old-man Dante & Vergil (and maybe Nero) being 2-A and having like three new abilities thanks to having that gear thing.

Alright, that should summarize the elements in play here. You all double-check these things & draw your own conclusions. I'm done!
 
Qawsedf234 said:
The example you gave is that the alternate MCU character feats cannot backscale to the canon characters because they're different. The only constants are the multiverse they're in.

If the argument is that the DMC multiverse is 2-A, you might have something there, I guess. But unless mainline DMC affects that 2-A structure, then they still wouldn't scale to that rating.

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I see that you weren't able to provide the FAQ which is unfortunate so we'll have to assume this issue comes down to reasoning seeing as PoC is not in a different continuity. Also that MCU thread was stating that characters would scale the same so long as strong divergences aren't discerned. Regardless, I would simply argue that PoC's events are still flanked by the same checkpoints you could say (3 right before it and 1 right after) which were designed to be in line with the then DMC director's (Itsuno's) thesis of the events that would constrain the scaling to be shared in the main timeline. Unless we're to believe the canon characters including the villains suddenly after 3 pumped iron so hard they became absurdly stronger. Something that could work at a glance, but given Mundus was in the process of reviving himself he wouldn't have time to really pump iron, eh since the point wasn't to surpass his former self, but to regain his former self's strength. Not to mention characters like Griffon comparing Dante to the strength of his father in the past where Sparda would not have been able to make gains like the modern characters after the divergence point (PoC's events which take place after 3), it becomes a bit more shaky.
 
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Unoriginal777 said:
I see that you weren't able to provide the FAQ which is unfortunate so we'll have to assume this issue comes down to reasoning seeing as PoC is not in a different continuity.
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I didn't say it wasn't canon, it's just that it's a branched timeline from the mainline games. Our canon, while not directly covering it, does cover profiles based on adjacent Canon universes:
3) Should said alternative versions originate within the main continuity, they would also be considered primary canon, and allowed, if notable enough.

Ex: Thought Robot/Cosmic Armor Superman, the DC One Million characters, and the Earth-3 Crime Syndicate of America all originate within mainstream comics, and feature interactions with the primary DC Characters. Similarly, the Marvel Ultimate Universe was a prominent comicbook line for a considerable time, and the two continuities have recently merged into one, so profiles from said verse are also allowed, as long as proper feats and scaling can be found for the statistics.

4) Franchises which contain non-canonical spin-offs/movies/videogames, et cetera, each with their own continuities and feats, yet not to the extent that Marvel and DC Comics do, should only be allowed profiles for notable original characters from said spin-offs, and not alternate versions of canonical characters, unless they are very prominent and notable.

Ex: Main villains from non-canonical movies of Dragon Ball, Sailor Moon, One Piece and the like can be allowed profiles, yet most versions of Son Goku contained in games such as Shin Budokai should not, as the only difference they hold from Canon Goku lies in their extent of power. However, given the prominence and popularity of Dragon Ball GT, alternative versions of Goku and Vegeta from this continuity have been allowed. If the alternate non-canonical version of a character is notable enough in the sense of having their own feats, and a different role and purpose, then it is possible that profiles for them can be created.

5) Certain franchises also contain a variety of spin-offs and alternate continuities, yet justify their existence due to in-series Multiverses. In such cases, Rule Number 3 still applies, albeit to a lesser scale. Original characters from said works are all allowed, yet alternate versions of original canon characters should not be abused.

Ex: Both the Puella Magi Madoka Magica and the Saint Seiya Franchises explain all of their Spin-Off mangas as alternate timelines, and profiles for characters originating from said works are allowed.
Click to expand...
PoC being an alternate timeline means you have to show that what happens there should apply to the mainline games or show evidence that the cosmology can be used for scaling the mainline games. PoC Dante doing X in the game does not warrant upgrading mainline Dante from doing X. That's how the rules have always been.
Unoriginal777 said:
Unless we're to believe the canon characters including the villains suddenly after 3 pumped iron so hard they became absurdly stronger
Click to expand...
We have character jump, literal infinite levels of powers from working out or getting physically older. So yes, that is an assumption we already accept as being usable on the wiki.
Unoriginal777 said:
be shared in the main timeline.
Click to expand...
How do you dismiss it being called an alternate timeline then?
 
Qawsedf234 said:
I didn't say it wasn't canon, it's just that it's a branched timeline from the mainline games. Our canon, while not directly covering it, does cover profiles based on adjacent Canon universes:

PoC being an alternate timeline means you have to show that what happens there should apply to the mainline games or show evidence that the cosmology can be used for scaling the mainline games. PoC Dante doing X in the game does not warrant upgrading mainline Dante from doing X. That's how the rules have always been.

We have character jump, literal infinite levels of powers from working out or getting physically older. So yes, that is an assumption we already accept as being usable on the wiki.

How do you dismiss it being called an alternate timeline then?
Click to expand...
Is it an assumption when the assumed events of 1 just happens right after 3 and Mundus was reviving, not pumping iron as in there was no time for him to suddenly get stronger with age since we both seem to be agreeing that 3 and past events scaling maintain the same (before the divergence point)? Heck if I really want to, I can call upon the example of Argosax who was sealed since forever ago as well except he is unsealed on screen and would be no stronger then he was when fighting Mundus who before the events of 3 in PoC's timeline would be 2-C according to what we've gathered so far and would reappear as a 2-C entity fighting Dante despite being on par with 1 Mundus by the events of 2? It just doesn't add up from what I can see.

Moving forward, I dismiss that it should influence the scaling in any serious manner because the exact same events of 1 happens right after PoC in its timeline and 3 happens before PoC as a fenced gate.

Anyways that stuff aside thanks for the FAQ I looked at the FAQ for a moment and noticed something slightly confusing I was hoping to elaborate upon. "3) Should said alternative versions originate within the main continuity, they would also be considered primary canon, and allowed, if notable enough." Allowed to do what? Scale similarly. Scale differently? I'm not certain what is being discussed here. It seems very unclear.
 
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Unoriginal777 said:
Anyways that stuff aside thanks for the FAQ I looked at the FAQ for a moment and noticed something slightly confusing I was hoping to elaborate upon. "3) Should said alternative versions originate within the main continuity, they would also be considered primary canon, and allowed, if notable enough." Allowed to do what? Scale similarly. Scale differently? I'm not certain what is being discussed here. It seems very unclear.
Click to expand...
Basically, say you have a character called Blante who is the evil alternate universe version of Dante who appears in a mainline DMC game. After the events of the game Blante then gets a semi-successful spin-off manga or comic series detailing his zany adventures after the events of that DMC game. Blante would therefore be allowed to have a profile .

On the other hand, if Blante only showed up to wave at Dante with nothing else happening (like with a gag), Blante would not be allowed to have a profile due to not being notable.
Unoriginal777 said:
we both seem to be agreeing that 3 and past events scaling maintain the same
Click to expand...
Currently, the OP is suggesting that PoC is an entirely alternate universe that happens to follow the game's general timeline with extra details. So it wouldn't be the same, just look similar.
 
Qawsedf234 said:
Basically, say you have a character called Blante who is the evil alternate universe version of Dante who appears in a mainline DMC game. After the events of the game Blante then gets a semi-successful spin-off manga or comic series detailing his zany adventures after the events of that DMC game. Blante would therefore be allowed to have a profile .


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On the other hand, if Blante only showed up to wave at Dante with nothing else happening (like with a gag), Blante would not be allowed to have a profile due to not being notable.

Currently, the OP is suggesting that PoC is an entirely alternate universe that happens to follow the game's general timeline with extra details. So it wouldn't be the same, just look similar.
Click to expand...
So that FAQ is basically irrelevant to the subject matter as it doesn't declare whether or not alternate universe characters in a MWI-esque multiverse franchise differ in scaling and what is to be done with that. Now I ask again, is there a FAQ pertaining to that, or is it just down to neutral discussion?

Additionally, the OP is suggesting the timeline is an alternate timeline, but still in the DMC Multiverse and not a different continuity since UES is the exact same implying the same cosmology as well. Extra details were as I mentioned POC slotted between 3 and 1 which remain the same just about.
 
Vietthai96 said:
literally in both DBXV and DBH have multiple variants of Goku or other characters within the same game and didn't scales to each other. no one talking about collab, cross overs
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Tanin_iver said:
What Viet, Tony and Qaws says would only apply to completely different versions and characters that are not at all canonical to mainline, like say the reboot, netflix, MvC, SMT etc
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Didn't know the reboot was a crossover.

Anyways, I feel we both must have misunderstood each other somewhat so I will try to give a different analogy to explain what I mean.

What I am trying to say is something like CC Goku is the same tier as Beginning of Z Goku that is High 5-A, upto the point CC Goku himself experienced the events of Z in his timeline chronologically(I know CC Goku doesn't have such a key but I am just speaking hypothetically).

But CC Goku is immensely more powerful in his final key compared to Z Goku because he experiences things well beyond anything in Z later on in his life. So the timeline diverges dramatically and hence why the characters are remotely not scalable. Even tho it can be logically inferred that they are the same level if they experience the same things choronologically in the same points of time in their life. Or is this part debatable to you?
He is confirmed to have experienced anime version of DB, DBZ, several of the DBZ Movies (specifically the Cooler movies, The Tree of Might and Bojack Unbound). He also experienced the Dragon Ball Super anime, mixed with some elements from the Dragon Ball Super manga, up until Dragon Ball Super: Broly.
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Is this a bit more understandable?
 
I would appreciate it greatly if people stopped bloating the thread with useless comments or unneeded recaps. Thank you.
chosen said:
one last thing that should be noted (wheter its accepted or not its whatever but I think should be mentioned at least once here)

Peerless story dante stated to be dmc5 dante which is why he doesn't remember poc like a future poc dante would

Do as you will with this
Click to expand...

... lol

As I explained before, moderator/developer comments are far from reliable. Not to mention the inherent contradiction of PL Dante story compared to Before the Nightmare, Visions of V and DMC 5.

It's obvious you don't realize the contradiction because you never played PoC but basically a character named Lily is transported to the future and trained for some time by Dante in order to learn how to use the Broken Gear which is now under her possession and apparently Dante wanted Lily to meet V after that... which never happens in the above mentioned sources.
 
Unoriginal777 said:
Additionally, the OP is suggesting the timeline is an alternate timeline, but still in the DMC Multiverse and not a different continuity since UES is the exact same implying the same cosmology as well. Extra details were as I mentioned POC slotted between 3 and 1 which remain the same just about.
Click to expand...
UES doesn't mean that Dante and PoC Dante have the same power level.

Also, stop minimizing the whole PoC stuff. The whole story diverges greatly way beyond DMC3, with Pluto somehow being alive when in canon he is dead, Vergil being alive and not a slave under Mundus control, the whole 6 artifacts that have been a plot point including the broken gear, V going to the past along the other whole can of time travel that happens in the other stories.
 
Tony_di_bugalu said:
UES doesn't mean that Dante and PoC Dante have the same power level.

Also, stop minimizing the whole PoC stuff. The whole story diverges greatly way beyond DMC3, with Pluto somehow being alive when in canon he is dead, Vergil being alive and not a slave under Mundus control, the whole 6 artifacts that have been a plot point including the broken gear, V going to the past along the other whole can of time travel that happens in the other stories.
Click to expand...

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PoC is Plutone being alive. The 6 artifacts and V going to the past. That's POC. I never minimized anything. 3-POC (barring characters transported to the future like Lily)-1-2-3-4-5 still happens regardless. As was clarified by the POC FAQ I provided earlier you haven't proven was inaccurate/incorrect. I should rather be asking you to stop maximizing POC beyond its limits when the other games and secondary media still happen as usual outside of these particular divergences brought upon by POC and its time hopping. Also strawman fallacy on assuming I'm asserting UES means Dante and POC Dante are the same power level. I only stated that with respect to the same multiverse and branches in events not overwriting the UES by nature since it's the same multiverse afterall (unless you have evidence otherwise).
 
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Tony_di_bugalu said:
I would appreciate it greatly if people stopped bloating the thread with useless comments or unneeded recaps. Thank you.

... lol

As I explained before, moderator/developer comments are far from reliable. Not to mention the inherent contradiction of PL Dante story compared to Before the Nightmare, Visions of V and DMC 5.

It's obvious you don't realize the contradiction because you never played PoC but basically a character named Lily is transported to the future and trained for some time by Dante in order to learn how to use the Broken Gear which is now under her possession and apparently Dante wanted Lily to meet V after that... which never happens in the above mentioned sources.
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Last I checked i dont recall beo recognizing lily (played i didnt just watched the stories on yt cuz the Zachary mechanics would beaten my ass)
 
I am just trying to understand your @Qawsedf234 position on the matter a bit.
Qawsedf234 said:
I didn't say it wasn't canon, it's just that it's a branched timeline from the mainline games.
Click to expand...
Ok.

Qawsedf234 said:
PoC being an alternate timeline means you have to show that what happens there should apply to the mainline games or show evidence that the cosmology can be used for scaling the mainline games.
Click to expand...
Currently, it is accepted that PoC, Mainline and the Void Mundus timeline of Vol 2 are the part of the same cosmology but different timelines where certain things remain similar upto a point but then deviates from mainline later on.

Just a note, Hellfilth of PoC isn't the only character of 2-A scope. Beastheads from the main timeline also has a 2-A feat but it is of cosmic awareness, precognition and retrocognition, so not an AP feat like Hellfilth.

Also, mainline Dante scales to Vol 2 AU feats primarily bcos he himself travels to said AU does some shenanigans and comes back from there back to his original timeline.
Qawsedf234 said:
PoC Dante doing X in the game does not warrant upgrading mainline Dante from doing X. That's how the rules have always been.
Click to expand...
This part is pretty obvious and understandable. Scaling needs to be well defined. But do characters scale to feats that they both perform before divergence in the timelines?
Tanin_iver said:
That isn't the case with DMC here.
To give a simple explanation this is more like the case of say an Role Playing game where different choices or routes lead to different events.
Everything upto the point it doesn't diverge in PoC or mainline should scale because they go through the exact same events.
Heck, Vol 2's VM timeline diverges a lot more and a lot earlier than PoC.
What doesn't scale are the points where it diverges.
Click to expand...
What I try to mean is, do you agree with the above highlighted statements or is that debatable and if so, then why?
 
Tanin_iver said:
I am just trying to understand your @Qawsedf234 position on the matter a bit.

Ok.


Currently, it is accepted that PoC, Mainline and the Void Mundus timeline of Vol 2 are the part of the same cosmology but different timelines where certain things remain similar upto a point but then deviates from mainline later on.

Just a note, Hellfilth of PoC isn't the only character of 2-A scope. Beastheads from the main timeline also has a 2-A feat but it is of cosmic awareness, precognition and retrocognition, so not an AP feat like Hellfilth.

Also, mainline Dante scales to Vol 2 AU feats primarily bcos he himself travels to said AU does some shenanigans and comes back from there back to his original timeline.

This part is pretty obvious and understandable. Scaling needs to be well defined. But do characters scale to feats that they both perform before divergence in the timelines?

What I try to mean is, do you agree with the above highlighted statements or is that debatable and if so, then why?
Click to expand...
Technically if you throw in the Beastheads you are retroactively admitting all Demon King tier characters and potentially even Nightmare are 2-A in scope of at least cosmic awareness, precognition, retrocognition, etc. But, yeah DMC characters having a degree of 2-A attributes is not some unheard of concept.
 
Tanin_iver said:
But do characters scale to feats that they both perform before divergence in the timelines?
Click to expand...
If the only changed happened after the showing, the assumption is that the showing is the same. Which is Doctor Strange Supreme gets all of his Movie 1 fests despite being an AU character.
Tanin_iver said:
What I try to mean is, do you agree with the above highlighted statements or is that debatable and if so, then why?
Click to expand...
If the 2-A feat happened before divergence it would still be 2-A. If it happened after divergence it only applies to PoC.
 
Hellfilth is fought twice.

The first time is in the Nightmare Game co-op mode, in which Lady is the protagonist, and it is called a dream/nightmare multiple times. Though there are a couple of instances where Lady either addresses her co-op allies, or breaks the fourth wall:
WtsGhqb.png


We can dismiss it as nerfed dream Hellfilth, or allies saved Lady.


The second time is in the side story. It begins with Dante and Vergil teaming up against Hellfilth. But then Lady + Trish + DMC4 Nero + V show up to help.
latest


We are shown a cutscene where Lady, Trish, and DMC4 Nero launch attacks on Hellfilth (from 7:29):


There are also dialogue from the characters during the fight:
Y6vRZ6C.png


This goes against Dante and Vergil going all out with Sin Devil Trigger to defeat Hellfilth, it is an anti-feat for Hellfilth's combat capabilities, and it is a mess for scaling.
 
ShadowWhoWalks said:
Hellfilth is fought twice.

The first time is in the Nightmare Game co-op mode, in which Lady is the protagonist, and it is called a dream/nightmare multiple times. Though there are a couple of instances where Lady either addresses her co-op allies, or breaks the fourth wall:
WtsGhqb.png


We can dismiss it as nerfed dream Hellfilth, or allies saved Lady.


The second time is in the side story. It begins with Dante and Vergil teaming up against Hellfilth. But then Lady + Trish + DMC4 Nero + V show up to help.
latest


We are shown a cutscene where Lady, Trish, and DMC4 Nero launch attacks on Hellfilth (from 7:29):


There are also dialogue from the characters during the fight:
Y6vRZ6C.png


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This goes against Dante and Vergil going all out with Sin Devil Trigger to defeat Hellfilth, it is an anti-feat for Hellfilth's combat capabilities, and it is a mess for scaling.
Click to expand...

We can't commentate on the nature of the battle if a cutscene is not shown portraying how the fight shapes up. Additionally, never forget that Trish and Lady fight alongside eachother against Urizen with Trish being a powerful demon, and Lady being a mere human. Yeah, this is no real dilemma. Not the way you're painting it. Vergil and Dante likely did the heavy lifting. Even if you argue otherwise, you have no evidence in favor of such an argument. Only their presence in the overall battle and arguing that someone must be on par with their teammates in any way if they share a battlefield is non-sequitur plainly. Furthermore, given POC is flanked by the mainline games and secondary materials you still end up with Lady/Trish as being effectively fodder if the Abigail battle is anything to go by.
 
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ShadowWhoWalks said:
Hellfilth is fought twice.

The first time is in the Nightmare Game co-op mode, in which Lady is the protagonist, and it is called a dream/nightmare multiple times. Though there are a couple of instances where Lady either addresses her co-op allies, or breaks the fourth wall:
WtsGhqb.png


We can dismiss it as nerfed dream Hellfilth, or allies saved Lady.


The second time is in the side story. It begins with Dante and Vergil teaming up against Hellfilth. But then Lady + Trish + DMC4 Nero + V show up to help.
latest


We are shown a cutscene where Lady, Trish, and DMC4 Nero launch attacks on Hellfilth (from 7:29):


There are also dialogue from the characters during the fight:
Y6vRZ6C.png


This goes against Dante and Vergil going all out with Sin Devil Trigger to defeat Hellfilth, it is an anti-feat for Hellfilth's combat capabilities, and it is a mess for scaling.
Click to expand...

See? @Unoriginal777

I knew the dude would point this one out as well lmao.
 
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