Dragon Ball Super Discussion Thread 100

[Dragomer]

Meh, we all know how it's gonna turn out, just like with Moro.

That's what? The third time Toyotaro use the same trick?

 

[The_Unknown_Warrior1]

Speaking of Moro did anyone see Seth The Programmer's video defending Goku vs Moro? It's interesting to say the least though unironically it kind of shows that Moro copied off quite a number of elements from practically most of past DB villains

 

[RinneItachi]

His argument was that Moro copying other villains was the point. Basically Seth's video is saying that Moro is the ultimate representation of every major villain (pre-DBS) so far, and also that the point of the whole Galactic Patrol, Merus, fighting as an Earthling, and still needing help after attaining MUI was for Goku to further learn what his strength really was/meant, and for Goku to develop a greater sense of value in the idea of justice.

 

[The_Unknown_Warrior1]

Yeah the video in itself actually gives a a deeper meaning to what this arc was all about though IMO I still think the writing was still mediocre, even though this arc as a whole was at least decent, and that I'm not excited to see how Toyotaro handles Granola

 

[Warren_Valion]

I don't really get how copying every other Dragon Ball villain in your actions, but in a less logical coherent manner is indicative of any form of solid writing. It really just gives off the sense that Toyotaro has no original ideas at all, and that copying things from the past, and showcasing them poorly, makes our past memories of those references to be tainted in retrospect.

I also don't really see how Goku learned a "lesson" about justice and righteousness from the contents of the arc, but even if he did, Goku moving from one one-dimensional character archetype to another isn't compelling. Goku wrestling with his desire for a good fight and his desire to help others in his actions is more interesting than Goku solely wanting to do either of those things on their own.

Goku used to be my favorite character because back in Z, because I always sensed a hidden intelligence to him, that he wasn't stupid, and he wasn't as ignorant of the world that he always lead on. Like, he always wanted a good fight, but he also genuinely cares for the lives of others, just look at Goku rescuing Gohan and Krillin on Namek for proof of that, he literally makes sure his friends/son are okay, momentarily postponing the fight with the Ginyu force.

But in Super? Nah, it's like the parody of Goku from TFS was the article of reference for the creators. Goku is the bumbling idiot I always believed he wasn't. He's just on about how he wants a fight this and a fight that, especially in Toyataro's writing, nothing more. And if Goku has made this character change, I don't see it being much different, very one-note, just in a different direction - I don't believe that Toyotaro has proven himself as a writer to create interesting character dynamics whatsoever. It's very disappointing.

 

[The_Unknown_Warrior1]

@Warren_Valion you know that's one of the interesting things about Goku in the Z era, it's that although he wasn't and he could be quite selfish he also had a genuine sense of compassion as you pointed out and could do the right thing because he knows that sometimes you've got to fight not just for the same of a good fight. While GT does get a lot of criticism, and tbf most of it is fair, I think the later had a much better version of Goku in comparison to his Super counterpart as he felt more mature and while still having moments of selfishness he also fought more to protect the Earth like with Baby or Omega Shenron

 

[Dragomer]

I completly disagree with Goku in the anime having anything to do with TFS or Toyotaro's Goku, his action fit the situations he was in perfectly, they just were in different situation most of the story compared to Z.

 

[ApeXeno]

Okay I'm confused here. Does this site accept the Daizenshuu for the cosmology of Dragon Ball? Because if they do then a lot of characters should be higher than what they are.

If they do accept Daizenshuu then you could upgrade many characters higher.
But if they don't, can someone explain why?

 

[Warren_Valion]

To my knowledge, no.

Specifically, because we are shown an end to the universe, which contradicts this statement.

 

[RinneItachi]

It's clearly just hyperbole. There are a bunch of random hyperbole statements about the DB universe being High 3-A, but none are accepted cause it's ridiculous.

 

[Ionliosite]

Universe 7 being infinite is directly contradicted by it having an end. It's less "we don't accept Daizenchuu" and more "we don't accept Daizenchuu if what it claims isn't supported by the series".

 

[The_Unknown_Warrior1]

That and something that is stated to be endless in size doesn't always mean it's infinite in size unless explicitly stated to be infinite in size, which is not the case for the living universe

 

[Dragomer]

By this logic, when do we downgrade DC and Marvel? We have map of their universe and even multiverse with clear visible beginning and end.

This whole 'universe are not infinite by default' is nonsensical because that's just nerd wanking, writers don't think like that and people who read it don't read universe and think 'oh, the place that's X light years large', they think 'the place that's infinite and always expanding'.

 

[Warren_Valion]

By this logic, when do we downgrade DC and Marvel? We have map of their universe and even multiverse with clear visible beginning and end.

This whole 'universe are not infinite by default' is nonsensical because that's just nerd wanking, writers don't think like that and people who read it don't read universe and think 'oh, the place that's X light years large', they think 'the place that's infinite and always expanding'.

While that is true, there are also no in series claims that each universe is endless.

And phrases like "endless" are often used hyperbolically.

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

By this logic, when do we downgrade DC and Marvel? We have map of their universe and even multiverse with clear visible beginning and end

DC has like 8 statements that the universe is unlimited but constantly contradicts himself with character traveling to the edge of the universe and to other universes for pure speed

 

[BlackeJan]

So like ive watch that Ultimate Gohan (ToP) gained similar power from himself during the Bus Saga. Is that true?

 

[ZetaMarishi]

Yes. He did. And then he and Piccolo kept training.

Yes, it's ridiculous that he went from 4-B to 3-A in the time remaining to the ToP, but that's what happened.

 

[Dragomer]

So like ive watch that Ultimate Gohan (ToP) gained similar power from the hisself during the Bus Saga. Is that true?

He actualy got stronger than ever. Which is like normal for Gohan by now.

 

[The_Unknown_Warrior1]

Like if he gained the power he had during the Buu Saga? Because IMO Gohan during the ToP would be much stronger then that level since he fought comparably to SSB Goku and I believe forced him to use Kaioken to defeat him, plus I think the narrator stated to that Ultimate Gohan and SSB Goku were rivals in power

 

[YukaSama4]

To my knowledge, no.

Specifically, because we are shown an end to the universe, which contradicts this statement.

also doesn't the event when Bulma made a device to locate sth which I don't remember she said that this thing exists in the bottom of the universe or sth like that idk remember completely but iirc they where trying to find the SBD, proves that the universe isn't infinite?

 

[ApeXeno]

To my knowledge, no.

Specifically, because we are shown an end to the universe, which contradicts this statement.

Can I see this? Also what about the galaxy stuff? Wouldn't this upgrade Kid Buu and Cell or no?

 

[ZetaMarishi]

Why would it upgrade them, though? Cell's barely a Solar System buster and I'm not sure if there's any impressive Buu statements in the manga that the daizenshuu would help beef up, especially if it could be argued that it's only the anime.

 

[Ovrhide]

Can I see this? Also what about the galaxy stuff? Wouldn't this upgrade Kid Buu and Cell or no?

Cell caps at solar system and that’s supported by his own statement.

the only Buu that closes in on galaxy level is the anime version, which isn’t canon.

 

[Dragomer]

'Dragon Ball bad take police' is pretty fun, I reccomend it if you like reading dumb stuff.

Cell caps at solar system and that’s supported by his own statement.

Technicaly, he power up further during the beam struggle after his statement so he isn't baseline.

 

[Ovrhide]

'Dragon Ball bad take police' is pretty fun, I reccomend it if you like reading dumb stuff.


Technicaly, he power up further during the beam struggle after his statement so he isn't baseline.

He is pretty much baseline in the grand scheme of things. The gap between solar system busting and multi-solar system busting is HUUUUUGE. The low end to high end ratio is almost a trillion times. Written in numbers that’s 1,000,000,000,000

 

[Warren_Valion]

Honestly, I could see Buu being potentially greater than 4-B cause of things like there being the scaling that Buu is stronger than the Beerus that sealed Old Kai, and that Beerus could destroy the Kaioshin Realm, but didn't because it wouldn't be proper, which would be like what, 3-B, or something?

Cell being higher than 4-B would be nonsense though.

 

[ZetaMarishi]

You could make arguments for Buu being higher than 4-B, yeah, but there's too much assumptions to it in order to really get it approved, and the only feat he really has that'd be Tier 3 would be his anime shouting feat in terms of support. At least, as far as I can really tell.

 

[Warren_Valion]

I don't see how it would be an assumption?

Old kai says that Buu is stronger than the one who sealed him, and we learn that a younger and weaker Beerus sealed Old Kai because he didn't find it proper to destroy the Kaioshin realm when he was angry. These are pretty direct statements.

It's not the most concrete form of scaling, and nothing definitely proves it, but I could see a, "At least 4-B, possibly 3-B" rating, maybe, with both types of scaling.

 

[ZetaMarishi]

Wait, I thought it was more vague than that and could just be argued that Buu was more evil, rather than stronger.

 

[AKM sama]

It was more vague. I think he said "more dangerous" instead of outright "stronger".

 

[Warren_Valion]

Nah, not really.

Old Kai says that Buu is stronger and "badder" than the person who sealed him:

This is confirmed to be Beerus, 75 million years+, plenty of time for Beerus to train and get as strong as we know him, from when he see him in BoG, by Toriyama because he didn't feel that destroying the entire Kaioshin realm would be proper, so he sealed him.

"Interviewer: Who was it that sealed the Elder Kaiōshin away in the Z Sword?
Toriyama: The Kaiōshin (who create planets) and the Gods of Destruction (who destroy them) have never gotten along that well, but once every 1,000 years they go to each other’s realms and hold a coordination meeting. At this time, they got into an argument over some trifling thing, and a certain short-tempered God of Destruction sealed Elder Kaiōshin away inside a sword. Naturally, it wouldn’t have been proper for him to destroy the Kaiōshin Realm itself. By the way, that God of Destruction was Beerus."

The only thing that really goes against it are the ideas that maybe that he was just saying that the person who sealed him wasn't as evil as Buu, which is true, not necessarily talking about that person's strength-wise, or maybe the idea that this was somewhat retconned with the Beerus thing. And the fact that I don't think Buu really has any feat or statement on this level barring generic "will bring an end to the universe" statements which don't mean anything in the context they were given.

But I could definitely see Buu getting like a possible rating, maybe.

 

[Dragomer]

You could make arguments for Buu being higher than 4-B, yeah, but there's too much assumptions to it in order to really get it approved, and the only feat he really has that'd be Tier 3 would be his anime shouting feat in terms of support. At least, as far as I can really tell.

There's holding back Goku's universal genkidama too.

He is pretty much baseline in the grand scheme of things.

Being two time above baseline or something is still above baseline, it's not like where Beerus is technicaly infinitely above baseline low 2-C but still.

Also depend on how you define 'solar system' and which one do you think Cell is refering to.

 

[AKM sama]

The "not as much as Buu" could be just referring to "bad" not "strong". Also, Toriyama stating the he could destroy the Kaioshin realm could be overtime because there are statements like destroying the universe for Freeza and Buu in the same manner. Buu being multi-galaxy would be an outlier though all things considered.

 

[Listentomyrhytm]

There's holding back Goku's universal genkidama too.

Not really Universal, as the one with the energy of the whole universe was in GT. Here in the Buu Arc it was mostly Earth's energy plus some other from other places but not directly Universal. Not only that but the holding back iirc was because of the whole "Pure" thing. Pureness in DB comes in many forms, and those pure hearted won't get instantly killed by the Genkidama, meaning he probably was able to hold it only because of that.

 

[Ovrhide]

There's holding back Goku's universal genkidama too.


Being two time above baseline or something is still above baseline, it's not like where Beerus is technicaly infinitely above baseline low 2-C but still.

Also depend on how you define 'solar system' and which one do you think Cell is refering to.

The one he is on... that’s obviously the one he is referring to...

Occam’s razor. Have you heard about it?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I agree with AKM that Buu's statements is referring to his "Evil" or "Dangerous" status not his power status.

 

[Warren_Valion]

The "not as much as Buu" could be just referring to "bad" not "strong". Also, Toriyama stating the he could destroy the Kaioshin realm could be overtime because there are statements like destroying the universe for Freeza and Buu in the same manner. Buu being multi-galaxy would be an outlier though all things considered.

I mentioned the first thing, but it could also just as easily refer to both aspects of that statement, evil and strong. So I don't think that is a definitive debunk.

But I don't agree with the second, to assume that it would overtime goes against the idea that it was a rage-fuel fit of passion over an argument. To assume that Beerus would keep hacking at the realm over a long amount of time, I feel, requires more assumptions than just stating he would do it in one blow, which is more his character anyway. Also, I would mention that destroying something that is 1/10 the universe in size, even in multiple blasts, over a short period of time would still likely be 3-B, would it not?

As for your third point, would it? The only feats that I remember Buu doing are just being stronger than everyone else, blowing up the Earth, and holding back Goku's Genki Dama. I don't think there is anything that definitely makes it an "outlier", per say.

 

[AKM sama]

to assume that it would overtime goes against the idea that it was a rage-fuel fit of passion over an argument.

Not really. Beerus could still be enraged and destroy it without one-shotting over a smaller timeframe. He has the speed and can just fly across the realm and keep destroying it. That statement by Toriyama doesn't automatically mean one-shot and it would be the absolute highest interpretation of it.

As for your third point, would it?

Yeah, considering there is no feat on that level, the statement being vague, and the other interpretation does not directly tell us anything, it would be a reach to suggest mutli-galaxy Buu.

 

[Dragomer]

Not really Universal, as the one with the energy of the whole universe was in GT. Here in the Buu Arc it was mostly Earth's energy plus some other from other places but not directly Universal.

False, it contain the whole universe + the after life's power, it's said in the manga and re-confirmed at the start of DBS.

The one he is on... that’s obviously the one he is referring to...

Not what I meant at all. You can consider that solar system level is just all the planete in the solar system or from the sun to the oort cloud, the second of which is a lot bigger than the first.

Occam’s razor. Have you heard about it?

Reading comprehension. Have you got any?

Yeah, considering there is no feat on that level, the statement being vague

I don't see how the statement is vague, we have a direct mention of power and the sentence clearly mean Beerus wasn't as evil nor as strong as Buu back then, that's basicaly writing 101.

There's an argument to be made for low-balling to be sure but saying it's a reach is dishonest when Buu being an immediate threat to the entier universe is repeated so many times in the Buu saga that it was almost silly, especialy after DBS made a point of saying the Genkidama he was holding back had power from the entier univers again in the first episode.

 

[Warren_Valion]

Not really. Beerus could still be enraged and destroy it without one-shotting over a smaller timeframe. He has the speed and can just fly across the realm and keep destroying it. That statement by Toriyama doesn't automatically mean one-shot and it would be the absolute highest interpretation of it.


Yeah, considering there is no feat on that level, the statement being vague, and the other interpretation does not directly tell us anything, it would be a reach to suggest mutli-galaxy Buu.

I disagree, we've seen how Beerus reacts when he is angry.

He goes like "**** it", charges a big attack, and then plans to fire it, destroying everything in one go. This is a good example of that.

To assume that he would take any longer than that is weird and out of character, but to give you the benefit of the doubt, let's say Beerus would destroy the Kaioshin realm in like 10 minutes max in his fit of rage, to do this task and still be that angry about it for any longer would be completely ridiculous. Beerus isn't Toei Broly, he isn't perpetually angry. He's a cat. He gets angry one minute and then is fine the next.

So again, even if you are right, destroying a realm 1/10 the size of the universe, within those hypothetical 10 minutes AND with numerous attacks, let's say 100,000 blasts to be liberal about it.

I am 99% sure that would still 3-B, just a lesser degree.


And that's not how outliers work, outliers are feats that stand significantly far apart from other feats, either from being too high or too low.

Buu doesn't have any anti-feats or statements, there is nothing to contradict this scaling at all.

The only thing ever said about him is literally just, "he is stronger than everyone else" and held back Goku's Genki Dama, which is unquantifiable. There is nothing definitively placing him in that range, true, but there is nothing disproving it either, if there was, then it would be an outlier. That's why I recommended a "possible" rating being added on, instead of definitively rating him on that level.

And honestly, the more I look at it, the more the statement isn't really vague at all and I feel like you are just trying to make it seem vague. Insinuating that the Old Kai statement just meant that Buu was more "bad" than Beerus, instead of both more "bad" and "stronger" than Beerus is frankly weird because you are ignoring the conjunction in the sentence.

His sentence is basically: "This guy was a really strong and bad dude, but not on the level of Buu."

If the sentence was like this: "The guy who sealed me was really strong! Really bad too, but not the level of Buu.", then I could really see that argument being used, because strong and bad are separated from one another, but it's not, so I don't.


Whatever the case, I don't actually care. I just mentioned this as an "I could see Buu being rating higher than 4-B via XYZ reasons". I don't plan on making a CRT or anything, if someone else does that is their prerogative, not mine. And I would like to not continuing arguing this topic as such, so I am done arguing.

Good night.