Immeasurable & Infinite: Deep Sea Confusion

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Apologies if I’m not allowed to do this.

I’ve read the Speed page about a dozen times, and I just cannot wrap my head around the requirements, or I should say, the mechanics for these two. The new requirement for infinite speed is moving an infinite space in a finite amount of time, that’s easy. In fact, I know a character that fits that definition to the T.

However, it’s the notes explanation which makes my mind start doing backflips. It reads:

Timeless Voids, i.e. areas within a setting that lack time or exist outside of the flow of time, cannot be used to grant Infinite speed. One might be tempted to apply Speed = Distance/Time and say that time equals 0 in this situation, thus moving through this type of void should result in Infinite speed. However, in a Timeless Void, time does not exist, making Time = Not Applicable.

So in short, Time = Nonexistent or Not Applicable and Distance/Time = Undefined and cannot be determined under these conditions.

Take note of the word “undefined”. From what I gathered, this note directly conflicts with the requirement for Immeasurable:

Immeasurable (Movement beyond linear time. This is why the speed cannot be measured. Given that S = D/T, if T is undefined the speed formula cannot be applied. This is the same reason why multiple temporal dimensions also grant immeasurable speed. For further information, see note 6 below.)

You see how this is kinda conflicting right? Because if T cannot be applied, making it undefined, but that is the reasoning for it not being infinite, then why does it seemingly sound like it fits for Immeasurable?

I’ve been told statements of “transcending time”, “beyond time”, etc no longer count as immeasurable speed, as with moving between realms that have no time via sheer speed alone. From what I’ve gathered after multiple questionnaires, is that the only solid answers I got for Immeasurable are:

• Attacking before you move (Ant)
• Transcend space & time yourself, independent of any realm or location (Ultima)

Lastly, and this is just me speaking from my thoughts, does anyone even really scale to this criteria? I can somewhat understand Infinite, because I still know that there’s at least one character that fits the definition, but immeasurable I’m drawing complete blanks on, and I personally think it’s a little close-fisted.

Regardless, that’s not the issue here, I just would really like some help understanding this.

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

Bump

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

The wiki has our own definition of Immeasurable. Undefined simply means a number than cannot be determined; which has nothing to do with infinities. Immeasurable can better be defined as Uncountable number. There's a big difference between countable infinity and uncountable infinity; Infinite speed is more defined on the former where as Immeasurable can be seen as the latter on our system. But Uncountable number is also a concept on our tiering system, while it cannot be measured in a linear sense, they can vary between being superior to Countable Infinity but inferior to Uncountable Infinity. Or they can just be finite but unknown period.

But, Immeasurable speed characters are best defined as characters who perceive time as a spatial dimension they roam around freely in. They can hop forward and backward through time as casually as someone can simply roll their eyes left or right.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

The wiki has our own definition of Immeasurable. Undefined simply means a number than cannot be determined; which has nothing to do with infinities.

I get that, but it doesn’t subtract from the fact that from what it looks like (imo), the wiki seems to contradict itself.

So in short, Time = Nonexistent or Not Applicable and Distance/Time = Undefined and cannot be determined under these conditions.

Given that S = D/T, if T is undefined the speed formula cannot be applied.

If that formula is applied to Infinite it’s undefined, if it’s applied to Immeasurable it’s undefined, but it grants you Immeasurable speed according to definition, but I’ve heard that isn’t Immeasurable, so what’s going on?

 

[Ionliosite]

Lastly, and this is just me speaking from my thoughts, does anyone even really scale to this criteria? I can somewhat understand Infinite, because I still know that there’s at least one character that fits the definition, but immeasurable I’m drawing complete blanks on, and I personally think it’s a little close-fisted.

Medea and basically any SMT Demon fit the criteria to a T.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Medea and basically any SMT Demon fit the criteria to a T.

Oh yeah, Demons are beyond Time & Casuality. But is that not due to them being born from The Expanse?

 

[Antvasima]

Well, we are trying to guard ourselves against contradictions in the storytelling, as most verses do not treat moving in realms that supposedly transcend or lack time as automatically granting the ability to move freely through time via speed alone, and attack anywhere and anywhen swifter than instantly/before you begin to move, as a consequence.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Basically be so fast that time is literally meaningless to you. You hit in the past, etc.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Well, we are trying to guard ourselves against contradictions in the storytelling, as most verses do not treat moving in realms that supposedly transcend or lack time, as automatically granting the ability to move freely through time via speed alone, and attack anywhere and anywhen swifter than instantly/before you begin to move, as a consequence.

I can understand that to a point, but the thing is, at least the verse I had in mind (this can apply to other verses) has statement upon statement of space-time not mattering, transcending space-time, etc, and characters keeping up with people who exist in said realms. Like, Medea & SMT demons were a very good example of this, however I don’t think consistent statements of being above space-time, transcending it, or it just not mattering should be completely disregarded.

 

[Antvasima]

Without explicit evidence of that the characters in questions can move through time via speed alone, it is too unreliable to use, and would set a very bad precedent. My apologies.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Hold on, I thought that was Dimensional Travel? That’s what Ultima told me.

 

[Ionliosite]

No, that's very different from dimensional travel. What Ant is saying implies moving across time by simply being fast, while what you're saying is traveling across dimensions.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

So if you traveled back to your time via a realm that has no time via sheer speed is that immeasurable?

 

[Ionliosite]

So if you traveled back to your time via a realm that has no time via sheer speed is that immeasurable?

That sounds more like Dimensional Travel since it isn't traveling across time.

 

[Warren_Valion]

Frankly, I have a problem with how this wiki handles the words immeasurable and infinity or Countless and Endless (when dealing with AP tiering specifically) when it comes to tiering due to them active ignoring that they are all synonymous and that the words all mean the same thing, and applying one strict definition to one and not the other doesn't make much sense, but whatever.


But as for the question at hand - the difference in infinite and immeasurable speed.

It's essentially moving or punching someone in negative seconds, instead of moving or punching someone in 0 seconds (which would be Infinite Speed).

A good example that I can think of is Amakasu Masahiko who through his will can amp himself to do this with his attacks.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Hmm... Ye

No, that's very different from dimensional travel. What Ant is saying implies moving across time by simply being fast, while what you're saying is traveling across dimensions.

Ah ok, alright.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Frankly, I have a problem with how this wiki handles the words immeasurable and infinity or Countless and Endless (when dealing with AP tiering specifically) when it comes to tiering due to them active ignoring that they are all synonymous and that the words all mean the same thing, and applying one strict definition to one and not the other doesn't make much sense, but whatever.


But as for the question at hand - the difference in infinite and immeasurable speed.

It's essentially moving or punching someone in negative seconds, instead of moving or punching someone in 0 seconds (which would be Infinite Speed).

A good example that I can think of is Amakasu Masahiko who through his will can amp himself to do this with his attacks.

I get that, but the usage of undefined not being infinite but it being immeasurable is kinda conflicting, don’t you think?

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Would being able to attack everywhere in space, time, and outside of time, all at once be considered as immeasurable?

 

[Warren_Valion]

I think the term "undefined" is too vague to apply to either infinite or immeasurable speed on its own, as I feel it could likely apply to both terms.

Although I admit that I am not even remotely an expert on this topic, so maybe I am just talking out of my ass.

 

[00potato]

Would being able to attack everywhere in space, time, and outside of time, all at once be considered as immeasurable?

Probably.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I have a small issue with the whole “without explicit evidence that someone can move at immeasurable speeds” thing.

Consistency is something I absolutely agree with, but when it comes to cases where characters do have transcending space time feats and are able to keep up with beings of the same caliber as them and vice versa, how do we separate “it’s unreliable” from “the characters are relative to each other?”

Example: Character A and Character B are both MFTL+. One outspeeds and blitzes the other, but both are still MFTL+. Ones just at a higher end of the speed.

Replace MFTL+ with immeasurable in this instance.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

I think the term "undefined" is too vague to apply to either infinite or immeasurable speed on its own, as I feel it could likely apply to both terms.

That was my problem, because undefined literally fits the definition of immeasurable, but not infinite.

 

[Antvasima]

Would being able to attack everywhere in space, time, and outside of time, all at once be considered as immeasurable?

I am not sure. An explosion that encompasses all of them at once seems more like a range issue, but I am uncertain.

 

[Antvasima]

Kukui:

Well, the scaling would have to be portrayed in a logical manner, and not be a plot-induced stupidity Marvel-style outlier, as we have to be extra careful with immeasurable speed ratings, to not provide unreliable information.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Kukui:

Well, the scaling would have to be portrayed in a logical manner, and not be a plot-induced stupidity Marvel-style outlier, as we have to be extra careful with immeasurable speed ratings, to not provide unreliable information.

Can I ask why were these standards changed?

 

[Ionliosite]

Can I ask why were these standards changed?

Which standards you mean?

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Which standards you mean?

The original standards for Infinite & Immeasurable.

 

[Ionliosite]

The original standards for Infinite & Immeasurable.

Infinite was changed because timeless voids standards getting changed. I haven't heard of Immeasurable being changed.

 

[Antvasima]

I do not remember changing them much, just getting more specific, to avoid the statistics being handed out due to technicalities that are inconsistent with what is actually shown in the story, rather than clear definitive feats and/or definitions.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Infinite was changed because timeless voids standards getting changed. I haven't heard of Immeasurable being changed.

Well, immeasurable being from transcend space & time realms and such.

 

[Ionliosite]

Any character that has Immeasurable from "transcending realms" must definitely have gotten that there without a CRT, since it's very unlikely it has the context to actually be Immeasurable.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I don’t think so. Do we or do we not still grant immeasurable for transcending space-time to higher worlds at all?

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

I don’t think so. Do we or do we not still grant immeasurable for transcending space-time to higher worlds at all?

Well I’ve been trying to, since I have scans of consistent statements of transcending space-time, and space-time not mattering, and it outright not applying to realms.

But I guess not.

 

[Ionliosite]

I don’t think so. Do we or do we not still grant immeasurable for transcending space-time to higher worlds at all?

Unless that has the context Ant mentioned, transcending space-time isn't Immeasurable.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

There are a lot of characters that have immeasurable speed for transcending spacetime on the wiki. I made a list of them on this page as part of one my arguments.

Spoiler: A list:

Master Unit: Amaterasu

Immeasurable (Can move in Boundary, a dimension beyond space and time)

Bobobo-bo Bo-bobo

Immeasurable (Should be faster than Bobopatchnosuke, who could move in Majide Time, a higher spatial dimension where time and space mean nothing and the new flow of time take forever for any amount of time to occur. Can move in his super-dimensional spaces.)

Morgoth

Immeasurable (Existed in the Timeless Halls, a place that transcended linear time and is best likened to a higher temporal dimension)

Magnus the Red

Immeasurable (Beyond the concepts of time, space, or distance)

John Egbert

Immeasurable (Comparable to other God Tier Players such as Dave and Rose, who could travel from the center to the surface of the Green Sun, which is twice as massive as a Genesis Frog. Kept up with Bec Noir, who can move through the Furthest Ring, an infinite space devoid of time that exists outside of all Genesis Frogs

Mekhane

Immeasurable (Fought Yaldabaoth in a war outside of space and time)

Alphamon

Immeasurable (Moved through spacetime from the past (Ulud Terminal) to the future (Skuld Terminal). It was directly described as having transcended spacetime to save the world)

Sol Badguy & Sin Kiske

At least Massively FTL+, possibly Immeasurable (Slayer considers Sol capable of seriously challenging him and is likely faster than Jack-O. Able to move within Underworld Hill, a place beyond time itself. Able to move in Backyard which is a higher-dimension)

At least Massively FTL+, possibly Immeasurable (Kept up with Jack-O. Able to move in Underworld Hill, a place beyond time)

Morax

Immeasurable (Demon Gods exist naturally unbound by Space-Time and the Laws of Physics, being natives to the Expanse, a higher realm which transcends the flow of linear Time across the Multiverse, and allows individuals to travel through Time by using it as a medium)

Alduin

Immeasurable (Is unbound by the concept of linear time and exists outside of it, living in the spaces between Kalpas. Unaffected by Dragon Breaks. Capable of literally flying through the currents of time, and traveling from Nirn to Sovngarde with sheer speed)

Vector Prime

Immeasurable (Exists beyond linear time and is at least comparable to The Chronarchitect, and should be faster than Alternity)

Unicron

Immeasurable (Exists beyond linear time. At least comparable to Vector Prime and the Chronarchitect. Has been stated to exist beyond the space-time of the multiverse and routinely travels within the void of non-space)

 

[Antvasima]

Ionliosite is correct.

Inaccurate statistics in this regard are likely leftovers from before we properly defined our requirements, and need to be fixed eventually.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

So those characters aren’t immeasurable?

 

[Antvasima]

Not if they do not fulfill our current requirements at least.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

So pretty much just analyze immeasurable speed on case by case basis’s and make sure they aren’t outliers then?

 

[Antvasima]

Not quite. Characters should demonstrate the abilities to travel through linear time via speeds alone, and attack before they started to move if they so choose.

Outliers are still an issue, as usual, though.