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I’ll respond to the rest later but my point with the 5 seconds was that for the version of Solaris at the beginning of time. His own attack would take 5 seconds to reach the point of space where the hedgehogs will be standing a million years from that point of time onwards. In other words the hedgehogs have -1 million years to react to it.

This is assuming Solaris himself is merely omnipresent and doesn’t have immeasurable speed.
 
This is was DontTalkDT had to say about higher temporal dimensions:

"So, an Immeasurable character might first go to the year 3000 to buy a laser gun, just to then move backwards in time to 1933 to kill Hitler. In terms of normal time, killing Hitler happened first and getting the laser gun after. However, from the Immeasurable character's perspective, it first bought the gun and then killed Hitler.
Hence we have two different kinds of before and after here. If an Immeasurable Character carried a clock, then what it did 5 minutes before according to that clock would be different from what it did 5 minutes before when going by a clock carried by a normal human. That means when talking about when something happened we need to give information according to which time we are talking. In a mathematical sense, we now need two numbers.
If the present is said to be (0,0), then 5 minutes in normal time from now could be written as (5,0). Meanwhile, 5 minutes from now from the perspective of the Immeasurable Character could be (0,5).
One can even combine those: 5 minutes from now in normal time, in the timeline as it will look for the Immeasurable Character in 5 minutes from its perspective, would be (5,5) for example.
From a mathematical perspective using two numbers like this means nothing, but that we are dealing with two dimensions of time. That doesn't mean a verse explicitly needs to have those. Like with dimensions we accept similar differences as equivalent.
A normal Immeasurable character can only move backwards in the first dimension of time, while in the second one (the one that is time as they experience it) they can move only forward like a normal human.
Now a character that can also move backwards in time in the second time dimension would essentially be immeasurable from the perspective of an immeasurable being.
It could, for example, see that the first Immeasurable Character kills Hitler with a laser gun and go backwards in the second dimension of time to stop the first Immeasurable Character from ever getting that gun and by that make it so that the first Immeasurable Character never killed Hitler in the past, to begin with.
So that's why I talk about multiple time dimensions as a model for different levels of Immeasurable speed"

So as you can see it has nothing to do with dimensional travel or the like but is actually a mathematical model for different levels of immeasurable speed. I also brought this up in the scenario where the hedgehogs don't speedblitz Solaris due to their immeasurable speed the moment the fight starts where they'd essentially have to "reset" the fight to the very beginning before Solaris decides to move and to also account for Solaris' phase changes. But you can discard this explanation for now and just stick with baseline immeasurable speed for the hedgehogs since I think this is only relevant when Solaris has immeasurable speed himself or if there is explicit proof that the hedgehogs didn't speedblitz Solaris.

Well again, none of that is really something that requires a negative number reaction time. But rather that's just something requiring to reach or cover all periods of time simultaneously. Which isn't a speed feat but a range and/or ability feat. Same goes for the Silver's telekinesis. It does say power which is an AP feat, and speed just needs to be above Solaris' reaction speed. But we're questioning Solaris having Immeasurable reaction speed feats to begin with.
Again, Solaris' body is in the way of the core in all of time, temporal omnipresent AoE just doesn't cut it, only striking before he moves at all works. I was under the assumption that seeing (an object existing in) all of time at once would qualify for immeasurable reaction speed.
 
DontTalkDT was basically explaining characters who can travel through two or more temporal dimensions simultaneously; which simply reaching a higher up temporal dimension isn't quite enough. Yes, it is possible for characters to be infinitely above baseline Immeasurable speed for each and every temporal dimension existing. And I don't quite need to repeat the omnipresence Vs movement. Because I agree with User about the circular arguments part.

And I've been tagging multiple staff members, but the only ones who responded were Eficiente, Matt, and Elizhaa. I guess I'll just go ahead and try to tag more neutral staff members. @AKM sama @Antoniofer @Wokistan @WeeklyBattles @Damage3245 @DontTalkDT @Agnaa your input here would be appriciated.
 
I think I was mentioned here before, so to clarify, I have no interest in responding to this thread.

(Also I'm not a neutral staff member, I'm not even a staff member)
 
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Okay, I didn't hear that. So that will do.

Also, you are honorary staff though.
 
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I do think Medeus's points make more sense that Immeasurable speed could be inaccurate.

Tail's communicators being similar to what in Sonic Generation's final boss is not a good proper arguments, in my view. While there is no concrete timelines, Sonic Generation is made years after Sonic (2006). I think more solid evidence evidence would be need for this points to be valid.
 
If the fight is just MFTL+ hogs fighting Solaris then Tails still wouldn't have been able to talk or react to it. Not to mention that my argument basically comes down to it being impossible to defeat Solaris without immeasurable speed. Thus Tails talking (which is a free action btw) doesn't matter since it contradicts Solaris being defeated.

I would also appreciate it if someone specifically targets my argument on the core rather than trying to dodge it and treat it as if Solaris is just a regular omnipresent being (which should still require immeasurable speed to defeat due to their attacks being undodgeable without it...).
 
I do think Medeus's points make more sense that Immeasurable speed could be inaccurate.

Tail's communicators being similar to what in Sonic Generation's final boss is not a good proper arguments, in my view. While there is no concrete timelines, Sonic Generation is made years after Sonic (2006). I think more solid evidence evidence would be need for this points to be valid.
Bruhhhhhhhhhh, the comunicator argument was simply a support argument that I just threw out there just for the "hey what if" sake, it was never the main reason, plus I didn't even say the comunicators were similar, it was just "hey Tails made this in Generations so maybe he did it in 06 however that isn't very solid, just putting it out there", it's not even close to the main evidence in favor of it bro, even DDM conceded against the "other characters can react" argument. Can you tell us on why the main evidence provided by me and Greenshifter isn't solid? Mainly because your posts only talk about side arguments or innacurate points not made by anyone in the pro side
 
Actually, Greenshifter keeps saying "You need Immeasurable speeds to react to those with temporal omnipresence" or "Attack entities who have temporal omnipresence" which both cases still go against what's said on the note added to the speed page. Even having Immeasurable speed wouldn't be evidence of being able to do those things where as one is capable of doing those even at finite speeds. One just needs either temporal presence or the ability to reach periods outside of time to do the former and the other needs temporal AoE attacks.

But, I sadly don't this thread is ending anytime soon. And none of the staff members I pinged multiple times want to respond it seems.
 
“requiring the use of abilities capable of affecting their entire being, as well as the ability to dodge their potentially omnipresent attacks, it is not necessarily impossible, as an omnipresent character's reaction time may still be limited.”

I agree that hogs could have the temporal range necessary to affect Solaris. I disagree with them having the spatial range necessary to affect Solaris, who would be protected by his own body from every possible angle. To elaborate on this, since it took 10 minutes to collect the chaos emeralds more or less. Solaris merely turning around would have made all of the states of his body “true” at the same time, thus he overlaps with himself in space, thus making the center part of his body unreachable to attacks that lack the necessary spatial AoE, now this is no problem to defeat Solaris phase 1 (if we assume Solaris phase 1 doesn’t attack at all). But this is a problem for Solaris phase 2, where you explicitly need to reach the core of his body.

The hedgehogs defeated Solaris through speed and AP alone as stated in the guide, so no “ability to dodge their omnipresent attacks”. Could you give an example of a temporal omnipresent character with a limited reaction speed within their domain of omnipresence? By virtue of their nature their past self would see the attack in the present coming and react to it, sure they might be unable to fully dodge it due to their nature but if that’s what you mean then that’s worded badly. (This also applies to them attacking from the past) I’d go a a step further and say that a temporal omnipresent character who can’t react to a finite speed attack (not necessarily dodge it) within their domain of omnipresence isn’t actually temporal omnipresent. If this needs a CRT so be it.
 
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Is there some kind of TLDR or summary about this thread?
 
@AKM sama

Basically, the debate is about whether or not this is enough to consider it Immeasurable speed. Solaris is omnipresent on a temporal scale, but not on a spatial scale. Which I recently wrote some rules saying that simply being omnipresent across time doesn't grant Immeasurable speed by default similar to how being large sized doesn't always grant speed. Since it is possible for someone to be omnipresent across time but still have finite reaction speeds or may not be capable of traveling through space at Immeasurable speeds. Since they don't actually travel at all, but are simply just already at all time periods.

But there are some different stories when it comes to characters fighting beings at with temporal omnipresence. Solaris can only be harmed if he's struck at all time periods simultaneously, and his attacks strike the past, present, and future all at the same time. Which the pro side is saying that requires Immeasurable combat speed and reactions. However, I elaborated how that's not quite speed, but area of effect. It doesn't matter whether or not someone is Immeasurable with attack speed to strike a character who is omnipresent across space-time; it is needed that they have temporal AoE to even hit Solaris. And the meteors and lasers Solaris uses to strike, even if they have temporal Area of Effect as well, I mentioned it doesn't quite require Immeasurable reactions to avoid those, but simply exiting space-time whether it be via Acausality or reaching "A period outside of space-time via dimensional travel" can do the thing. And again, this is something that not even characters who are Immeasurable are often assumed to be able to naturally, but rather they do need to reach outside regardless. But at the same time, simply reaching that is not evidence for Immeasurable speed.

They also laid out some pretty reasonable counter arguments. The guidebook says Sonic and the cast defeated Solaris via speed and power; and it makes no mention of hax. Which I can agree with Super Hedgehogs being comparable if not superior in terms of reaction speeds, but we're questioning if there are any Immeasurable speed feats to begin with is the problem. And "Defeating them via power" is often very loosely as power can refer to a lot of things. Not just physical prowess, but even having good range, or dimensional travel, or hax are also both things "Power" can include. So I wouldn't use that to rule out it not being Immeasurable but other things.

Also, other details mentioned is that the entire battle takes place in a dimension where all time and space is being shattered and destroyed. And the plot of the game basically has the past, present, and future always fluctuating randomly due to this. And people from the past meet up with things from the future all the time and there are things in all time periods visible in the present. Also, it is mentioned that other characters such as Tails, Amy Rose, Doctor Eggman, Rouge the Bat, ect are all able to perceive the entire fight. There was mention of Tails having tech to do something similar Generations, but there's no proof he's using it here. And no one else has it and are still able to perceive the fight.

And while there are some good points that it's common in fiction that normal humans perceive fights from two or more Massively FTL+ characters. And Hedgehogs even in much weaker versions have multiple Massively FTL+ feats. And this is the strongest the Hedgehogs ever been, so no reason for it to be an outlier is another thing we pretty much agree on. But I also thought of other facts. The difference is that a lot of other characters have their feats coming from other scenes + consistent powerscaling. But we don't always assume those characters move at Massively FTL+ in every scene whether it be bad writing or neither fighter needed to demonstrate their full speeds. But here is the only alleged Immeasurable speed feat in the entire series, but the fact that finite speed characters perceive the entire questionable feat argue against it to begin with. And it was also further agreed by other staff members that we should especially be strict with Infinite or Immeasurable speed characters fighting, that the existence of finite speed characters perceiving a fight rules out the specific fight scene being an Infinite or Immeasurable speed feat to begin with.

I tried being considerate to the pro side, and they may elaborate points I missed. I'm sure I missed other details the brought up. Especially Greenshifter and User elaborating their posts.
 
Massively FTL+ in every scene whether it be bad writing or neither fighter needed to demonstrate their full speeds. But here is the only alleged Immeasurable speed feat in the entire series, but the fact that finite speed characters perceive the entire questionable feat argue against it to begin with. And it was also further agreed by other staff members that we should especially be strict with Infinite or Immeasurable speed characters fighting, that the existence of finite speed characters perceiving a fight rules out the specific fight scene being an Infinite or Immeasurable speed feat to begin with.
I’m just gonna nitpick this part for now. Clearly hedgehogs need to go full speed against a threat such as Solaris so there’s absolutely no reason for them to be holding back here. There’s also the problem that the “being strict rule” you are referencing would downgrade both parties in case of 2 supposedly immeasurable speed characters fighting. While here you want to apply it to only one side of characters, despite it being impossible for regular characters to even figure out what Solaris is doing, as such you’d have to downgrade Solaris from temporal omnipresence.

I also still don’t see your point on how a temporal omnipresent character who by default sees all of time at once wouldn’t have immeasurable thought speed at the very least. Everything else I already elaborated on above (the Solaris-specific stuff about the core right above AKM’s post) and I’m still willing to make that general thread if necessary.

Also for clarification for AKM: Solaris phase 2 can only be defeated by targeting a specific part of his body, his core. We see the meteors and lasers Solaris uses as also being temporal omnipresent since switching between Hedgehogs in gameplay while a meteor or laser is approaching one hedgehog still has you dodge those same meteors as the other hedgehog, despite both of them being in different points in time.
 
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Context​

I will get all my scans from the japanese version of Sonic 06, translated by Windii (enable youtube subtiles), the english version is right here

Misconceptions​

First, I am going to clear out some false info being propagaded by the con side out of a lack of knoweledge, even if unintentional

First the most blatant wrong point of "other characters can react to it! immesurable debunked!" which I don't know why it is even being argued since it has nothing to do with the standards change

First, everyone could see Solaris, even before the fighting even started, Solaris is not immesurable, he is onmipresent throught time, using the characters reacting to Solaris as a argument is incredible misleading because they all can see Solaris as a giant sun in the sky, this is show as well when they see Solaris being destroyed, therefore using this as a argument is just misinformation of the pro side points since only the hedgehogs are immesurable, the characters would need to react to the actions of the hedgehogs, cheering them on is not the same and it is dishonest to compare them both

And about the "immesurable needs a frozen background" argument, first the background is indeed frozen, as seen here, second the characters either react to what the non immesurable character is doing, or react to what happened to him, I hate using Dragon Ball exemples but in BoG the characters can't even sense nor see Goku and Beerus, but they still cheer the sayain on, I honestly don't understand putting reacting and cheering someone on the same tier

The conclusion is that reacting to Solaris doesn't debunk, and neither does cheering




Now to the "time was shaterred therefore this isn't a feat", which I don't understand why people are repeating this as a objective mantra when this was already adressed as wrong, just ignoring the other points

First, as a result of Mephiles becoming Solaris, he immediatley goes to destroy all universes, this spatial distortion caughts all the main characters (plot armor lol) bringing them all together, because as Shadow states they are in a intersection of time and space, as you can all see, the act of Solaris destroying everything created a intersection (ergo a point where two lines cross) of time and space, that's why Silver is with them, but as Eggman says it won't last for long

Arguments​

Now that we got that out of the way, let's go to the feat itself

Mephiles kills Sonic, causing Elise to cry and releasing Iblis, Mephiles uses the emeralds to fuse with with Iblis which then he immediately goes to destroy everything, this spatial distortion, ergo, Solaris action of destroying everything directly causes a intersection between time and space, which is where all the main characters are and the reason they aren't dead, listening to this Knuckles brings the idea to kill Solaris, which is quickly shut down by Eggman, because since Solaris exists in the past, present and future at the same time, destroying now would do nothing, this is extremely important because it singlehandely refutes this:

This is taking the gameplay too literally, Solaris isn't fighting each character individualy, he is fighting all three of them at the same time, the reply implies that Solaris could fight each one differently, which is impossible because this is just Solaris, he isn't attacking in three time periods, he is just attacking, this is seem by trying to argue that the characters collecting rings is a actual thing, when that is obviously a gameplay mechanic that has already been agreed countless times, the switching isn't canon nor is the chararcters just resting, otherwise Knuckles would be right, in gameplay only one character is needed to beat Solaris, but the story itself is telling us that's wrong

Now back on track from that, Silver counters Eggman by saying he would just destroy in all at once, Shadow agrees this would be possible with Sonic. After getting all emeralds they revive Sonic and fight Solaris.

Now to the main point of the argument, as show multiple times by the most canon source of the game, the orginal japonese dup, Solaris is a being that exists simultaneously in all time, an attack from Solaris does not follow time, because the same attack would hit you in the past, present and future, DMM's own example shows this, when the switch happens, you can see Solaris still in the position he was fighting Shadow, because the same Solaris is fighting both, of course due to gameplay limitations you can't control all three at the same time, but the story tells us that is what is happening. Now you have these hedgehogs that do not have any special abilities nor powers related to this outside of power and speed, as stated by the story, are able to fight this being and react to his attacks that do not follow time at all, and it will be both in the past and present at the exact same time, they can fight it. Now before ending this I want the opposition to explain how those three hedgehogs with finite speed and no special powers, were able to defeat a being that exists in all of time and that his attacks also exists in all of time, clearly not following the speed formula, this must be what is first responded to understand how this can happen.

Conclusion​


The new standards would only downgrade Solaris, since being a higher dimensional being isn't enough for immesurable, nor is being onmipresent throught time, but as stated by knowelegble staff members in the franchise in the previous thread, the hedgehogs would need immesurable speed to deal with Solaris without other abilities, and this point still stands today, and the other arguments are using this opportunity to try to downgrade the rating for completely unrelated reasons, under the pretense of the change.
The summary of my arguments is here, @AKM, nothing said in the thread thus far changed it
 
They also laid out some pretty reasonable counter arguments. The guidebook says Sonic and the cast defeated Solaris via speed and power; and it makes no mention of hax. Which I can agree with Super Hedgehogs being comparable if not superior in terms of reaction speeds, but we're questioning if there are any Immeasurable speed feats to begin with is the problem. And "Defeating them via power" is often very loosely as power can refer to a lot of things. Not just physical prowess, but even having good range, or dimensional travel, or hax are also both things "Power" can include. So I wouldn't use that to rule out it not being Immeasurable but other things.
Except there is no proof they used any of the abilities you are claming, all evidence points otherwise, you are arguing they COULD not that they HAVE, arguing in possibility is pointless, we have to go with what is stated

Only replying to this point for clarification and because Greenshifter already did the other one
 
They're not holding back, obviously they aren't. They're clearly going all out, but now the argument seems to come by the fact that the scene doesn't seem to portray them as moving at Massively FTL+ speeds let alone Immeasurable. There's a difference between characters having multiple MFTL+ speed feats, but not every scene potrays them that way even if they're going all out. And a single Immeasurable speed feat from characters who are usually Massively FTL+ on a casual basis, but the specific "Immeasurable speed" scene of them going all out and yet the entire fight is clearly seen by finite speed characters.

Solaris "Not being temporal Omnipresent" is kind of contradicted by the statements of needing to be "Attack through all time periods simultaneously." Antoniofer even tried to say "Temporal presence" as opposed to "Temporal Omnipresence" in the form of three time periods. But didn't well all agree the in game statements clearly say "All time periods"?

Temporal Omnipresence not qualifying for Immeasurable reactions is made elaborate on the speed page. There's also perception =/= speed and even attack starting in one time period, but it doesn't travel through space at Immeasurable speeds. And Immeasurable reactions being able to actively react to attacks that already struck them as opposed to them not really hitting them directly to begin with due to being both physically present and not present on every time period at the same time.
 
They're not holding back, obviously they aren't. They're clearly going all out, but now the argument seems to come by the fact that the scene doesn't seem to portray them as moving at Massively FTL+ speeds let alone Immeasurable. There's a difference between characters having multiple MFTL+ speed feats, but not every scene potrays them that way even if they're going all out. And a single Immeasurable speed feat from characters who are usually Massively FTL+ on a casual basis, but the specific "Immeasurable speed" scene of them going all out and yet the entire fight is clearly seen by finite speed characters.
In another thread is already being agreed that Eggman and Tails tech can work even if time is stopped/when there isn't time dating back to SA2, assuming the fight doesn't have the "intent" to be immesurable (even though this is just a biased assumption coming from yourself that can easily be countered by saying "no u") doesn't work with the justification of characters reacting using advanced forms of technology

This would be like downgrading any form of Sonic because Eggman can see him, regardless of context

I only replied to this because I wanted to bring an actual new argument, the rest seems to just be the same old, Greenshifter can reply if he wants to the rest. Right now I would rather just let AKM read yours and mine's summary and post his thoughts then work towards that
 
I wasn't arguing against Tails or Eggman having tech to keep up with Super Hedgehogs; but they weren't using them to perceive the fight with Solaris. And none of the others were using tech like that either. And it's not so much the "Intent" but rather the scene lacks the requirements to reach Immeasurable.

But I agree with letting AKM read our summaries.
 
I wasn't arguing against Tails or Eggman having tech to keep up with Super Hedgehogs; but they weren't using them to perceive the fight with Solaris. And none of the others were using tech like that either. And it's not so much the "Intent" but rather the scene lacks the requirements to reach Immeasurable.
And I wasn't arguing against that either, my point, to summarize, was that in the new accepted CRT it was show proof that Eggman and Tails have made technology that can work when time is stopped, time is changing to past and future, and when there is no time, also they not using tech is incorrect, they are very clearly using technology to communicate, assuming they aren't is a biased assumption with no proof, and me saying they are would be as equaly as valid in this situation.

I am glad you do, mutual understanding is alaways a good thing
 
Solaris is a being that exists simultaneously in all time, an attack from Solaris does not follow time, because the same attack would hit you in the past, present and future, DMM's own example shows this, when the switch happens, you can see Solaris still in the position he was fighting Shadow, because the same Solaris is fighting both
For clarification, Solaris is fighting multiple characters at multiple points of time because of being omnipresent across time, right? And whatever attacks he performs, they happen the same way at each of those points of time where he is fighting?
 
For clarification, Solaris is fighting multiple characters at multiple points of time because of being omnipresent across time, right? And whatever attacks he performs, they happen the same way at each of those points of time where he is fighting?
Yes
 
For clarification, Solaris is fighting multiple characters at multiple points of time because of being omnipresent across time, right? And whatever attacks he performs, they happen the same way at each of those points of time where he is fighting?
There’s also Eggman stating that the hogs need to attack Solaris in different points in time (which is where the idea to resurrect Sonic came from). IIRC Shadow picked the past, Sonic the present and Silver the future. Why exactly they went to 3 different points in time when they still needed temporal AoE is unclear but we know they did.
 
Tbf, they Shadow going to the "past", Silver "future" etc is only fan speculation based on their lines (Shadow talks about past, Sonic present, Silver future) it's not actualy stated they did that in canon, I don't know how much this info changes the thread
 
Not too much, as long as it’s stated they went to 3 different points in time then reasoning stays the same since past and future are relative.
 
Okay, so what exactly is the argument for immeasurable speed? Because Medeus is right in that simply being omnipresent across time doesn't mean your attack speed is immeasurable.
 
Solaris at the year -1 million can shoot a meteor that 5 seconds later arrives (year -1 million + 5 seconds) at the space Sonic will be standing approximately 1 million years later. This attack will thus reach Sonic's location a million years before he has the chance to react to it (even if it uses finite speed), since the attack is temporal omnipresent, it'll thus hit Sonic in the present and is thus unavoidable for someone with finite or even infinite speed, since present Sonic can only dodge the present version of that meteor, not the past version.

The other argument is that all of Solaris' states are true at the same time thus him simply turing around will make the core of his body unreachable for the hedgehogs' attacks. They need to blitz him before Solaris in the past can turn around, which can only be done with immeasurable speed.

I probably explained it more in-detail in my previous replies.
 
I thought my summary already explained why it was immesurable but you can probably read Greenshifter's other replies since he is more knowelegeble than me about it
 
Solaris at the year -1 million can shoot a meteor that 5 seconds later arrives (year -1 million + 5 seconds) at the space Sonic will be standing approximately 1 million years later.
But that's just the range that comes from being temporally omnipresent. Like you said, if he launches an attack, it will be launched in all points of time. Sonic only has to dodge the one that is in his point of time.
 
Just pointing out that the hedghogs are not in only three points of time, they are taking him at the same time in all points of time. I will let Greenshifter explain his point further
 
Like you said, if he launches an attack, it will be launched in all points of time
Causality though. If he launches an attack 5 seconds ago that crosses 1 km in those 5 seconds. Then the attack will be in every point of space (in a straight line) between the origin of the attack and 1 km away after 5 seconds/in the present since all the previous positions of the attack are all "true"/all happen at the same time.
 
Okay, and are we sure he launches the meteor at every point of time and not just the times where he is fighting the three characters? If it's the former, then the attack will be in every point of space in a straight line like you said and showing it on screen would be feasible, means something like that should be shown here. And even then, can you not dodge that attack by just moving sideways?
 
I'm sure if it was omnipresent across space; the side cast would see it more as a strait line rather than a rounded meteor. Temporal omnipresent basically means it was nonexistent on most periods 5 seconds ago; but 5 seconds later, it's x meters closer, still temporally omnipresent and no longer existent on it's pervious position on any time period.
 
I'm sure if it was omnipresent across space; the side cast would see it more as a strait line rather than a rounded meteor. Temporal omnipresent basically means it was nonexistent on most periods 5 seconds ago; but 5 seconds later, it's x meters closer, still temporally omnipresent and no longer existent on it's pervious position on any time period.
Even if we were to go with that reasoning and assume that the hedgehogs have acausality type 2 for no reason at all. Then they still wouldn’t be able to dodge it since the attack would just pop up in their face if Solaris times his shot right (1 km in 5 secs and assume Sonic is 1 km away, if Solaris shoots his attack 5 seconds before the moment of time Sonic exists in then he can’t see it coming by your reasoning, cause if he did see it coming then he’d see all states at once and it’d thus be a straight line)

(I also never said it was omnipresent in space since that wouldn’t be just a straight line)
 
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Okay, and are we sure he launches the meteor at every point of time and not just the times where he is fighting the three characters? If it's the former, then the attack will be in every point of space in a straight line like you said and showing it on screen would be feasible, means something like that should be shown here. And even then, can you not dodge that attack by just moving sideways?
It's every point in time, as explained it's only one Solaris that attacks with temporal onmipresence, he uses the same attack against everyone because he is the same Solaris, I covered this in my summary
 
Okay, and are we sure he launches the meteor at every point of time and not just the times where he is fighting the three characters? If it's the former, then the attack will be in every point of space in a straight line like you said and showing it on screen would be feasible, means something like that should be shown here. And even then, can you not dodge that attack by just moving sideways?
The meteors have the exact same position when you switch between hogs so seems very likely that they’re temporal omnipresent meteors rather than individual meteors fired at different points in time. Now the reason why it isn’t shown on screen as a straight line is because immeasurable speed characters should be faster than causality itself and Solaris can attack them so he scales to them. You can’t go sideways to dodge it since the line would instantly appear for someone in the present as far as the attack would have travelled if it were a regular attack launched in the past, so that’s undodgeable (you’d basically have to dodge causality itself).
 
That still doesn't really answer our concerns. It still doesn't take Immeasurable speed to dodge something like that. Even Immeasurable speed characters would perceive temporal omnipresent attacks as temporal omnipresent attacks. Acausality isn't "Assumed for no reason", rather it's honestly the "Only way" to fight against a temporal Omnipresent. Immeasurable speed doesn't cut it at all where as Acausality or "Existing outside of time and space" does based on definitions alone.
 
Acasuality doesn't make sense based on the narrative of the game, this has already been stated before, this feels like the least accurate way of solving this thread and it feels like it just exists because Sonic just can't be immesurable instead so we have to give Sonic something that narratively doesn't make sense

Look, I am all in on giving Sonic more hax, but this way just doesn't make sense with 06's plot, they explicit mention they needed Sonic's speed (and power), if it was just hax Silver and Shadow already had the latter wouldn't go "If only Sonic was here", they would just beat him themseves because as you said acasuality is all that' needed

(BTW if it really goes to the acasuality route this would apply to the Archie trio as well, since they also fight a temp onmipresent)
 
Acausality type 2 is useless against Solaris since the line will also appear in their present and kill them. Superior dimensional range spamming is contradicted by Sonic’s arrow of light.
Even Immeasurable speed characters would perceive temporal omnipresent attacks as temporal omnipresent attacks
Not really. They wouldn’t see any attack since they blitz before Solaris moves in the past, but since Solaris keeps up with the hedgehogs, his immeasurable speed attacks would look like they do in the game and the line would only appear after the fight is done.
 
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