Massive Undertale revisions and downgrades

[ShionAH]

Okay

 

[Antvasima]

@Ultima_Reality @Andytrenom

Would you be willing to help out here please?

 

[Ultima_Reality]

..but, still, why does this matter at all? Why does it apply to anything we care about to debateabout? Imagine from your point of view I'm correct and he is Unknown with lots of hax don't do anything to his AP; he would be a god and this would still be him referring to himself as a god under an entirely different context. This adds literally nothing to the idea of him being Low 2-C.

It matters because those statements indicate that Flowey had complete control over the gameworld, at the time, and my argument here is that the gameworld itself is a Low 2-C structure, and thus, Flowey is Low 2-C. That summarizes my stance in here.

No, it's still a headcanon, he only restrained some dozens or so of characters and taking their SOULs is hax. We add that to him saying he can't kill everyone and we have him not being able to kill everyone, at least not all at once. The rest is structurally a headcanon, and he didn't say he hasn't done it yet, he there communicates wanting to do it but needing Frisk's SOUL first. He also didn't care to kill monsters in the Geno. route.

Except that he never directly states that he is unable to kill everyone in the Underground; he just implies that he hadn't done it yet, and him being able to absorb the SOULs of every Monster in the Pacifist Route does show that he was capable of affecting all of them with his power, regardless, not to mention that removing a living Monster's SOUL from their body is stated to be something that requires immense power to begin with, so what he did was actually a better feat than simply killing them all, in all likelihood.

This makes no sense, Frisk had a human SOUL and the human SOULs themselves "had nothing to do with this"? This does nothing to point out why Flowey's "current power isn't enough to break through the Barrier and extend his dominion over the outside world" when he has what needs to it x6, the headcanon you made would now need to have the headcanon of him not wanting to pass through it but destroy it.

What I said is just actual lore that is established by the game itself: One human SOUL is capable of crossing the barrier, but seven SOULs are required to actually destroy it. Your argument itself is founded on more headcanon than mine, anyway, considering that it's never really stated or shown the six SOULs teleported Frisk to outside of the Barrier: All that happens is that they rebel against Flowey and depower him, and then Frisk is back to the room in which they fought Asgore, and afterwards, they cross the Barrier.

We would take the higher-end scenario as a logical conclusion when the takes of how everything works deem doing so, I replied to something just asked for it knowing what they are. It's a headcanon to say that what Chara did was portrayed that way as opposed to Chara having destroyed both. If a camera films a characters who destroys the universe and the camera does or doesn't get destroyed too then why does it matter? It broke the 4th wall or not, it doesn't matter, if the camera can also be used as an item that can turn back time in the whole universe then it still doesn't matter, it would be like destroying something in-universe that can do the same.

It's not really a headcanon, when Undertale's entire cosmology is itself metafictional in nature, and functions of the gameworld such as SAVEs, LOADs, and RESETs are portrayed as meddling with the timeline as a whole, and the effects of Chara's destruction of the game program are likewise portrayed as universal destruction, all of which indicates that the gameworld is at the very least identifiable with the spacetime continuum as a whole. Headcanon would imply that it had no evidence and was just something that I declared without any evidence backing it up.

Meanwhile, "The timeline and the gameworld are different things, and Chara's feat just so happened to destroy both" is a baseless, unfalsifiable scenario, which needs evidence to back it up; so, the Burden of Proof does lie on you, in this case, given Russell's Teapot and all that jazz.

Another take is that it might all be like comicbook worlds inside a comic where destroying the comicbook destroys the whole setting within it, like it could be the case in UT, but this doesn't mean a characters messing up pages of the real comic, which has inside their whole timeline, is Low 2-C via messing with something that encompasses the timeline, because it does so in the same way a universe in a tiny cup may to the same.

And you still haven't provided any evidence that the gameworld which Flowey manipulates is in any way separate from the setting of the game itself, while I showed evidence of the contrary. "Undertale" being just a medium which allows us to look into the setting and only encompasses tiny parts of the universe is, again, an unfalsifiable claim, and unfalsifiable claims are subject to the Burden of Proof, basic shit, really.

I take it as Time Manip (turning back time) or a bit less likely as Causality Manip, not really as Time Travel but it could in fact be that and have a progress too simultaneously. If the ability didn't let you reset to zero then it would rember the beginning, but it does, and even as time travel every time it's SAVEd the file rememers how you did it, knows your name and LV, and let's you go back to the last point saved, all that is a progress, the file has no reason to just and only be used to go back into a later point. Flowey being able to destroy this and his power existing independently is a non-feat, he just destroyed a thing you used for your powers and had his own.

So, you are actually fine with the idea that a SAVE File contains your progress saved up within it, then? I don't see why Flowey destroying it would be a non-feat, then, considering that, under this scenario, a SAVE File contains a snapshot of the timeline, and he was able to smash one to bits. Although, that's irrelevant my actual point, anyway, since I never even brought up Flowey destroying your SAVE File being a feat: I was talking about the fact that different files do allow for different versions of the world to exist concurrently, and Flowey destroying your version of the world without any effect on his own was just evidence that they exist independently.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

I agree with Ultima_Reality FRA.

 

[Eficiente]

It matters because those statements indicate that Flowey had complete control over the gameworld, at the time, and my argument here is that the gameworld itself is a Low 2-C structure, and thus, Flowey is Low 2-C. That summarizes my stance in here.

No offense but this is biased, being a god accounts for nothing, being a god of something doesn't mean the god can one-shot the thing it's god over, it can maybe and not even necessarily mean the god has powers related to it. O. Flowey has that, base Flowey already had that and O. Flowey has that but better, that is the unbiased way to take him being a god.

Except that he never directly states that he is unable to kill everyone in the Underground; he just implies that he hadn't done it yet, and him being able to absorb the SOULs of every Monster in the Pacifist Route does show that he was capable of affecting all of them with his power, regardless, not to mention that removing a living Monster's SOUL from their body is stated to be something that requires immense power to begin with, so what he did was actually a better feat than simply killing them all, in all likelihood.

He implies so in a slightly less clear manner than him being unable to kill everyone given the wording; If you want to disagree that this is what he implied on regards to the Monsters then ok, but you should at least be able to see it as a reasonable interpretation. On top of not having done it yet he says that he can't yet because he needs more power, if he'll use that for more than it. O.Flowey being capable of affecting all of Monters with his power means nothing in regards to him being Low 2-C, ignoring how he missed someone there. Where is it stated that removing a living Monster's SOUL from their body requires immense power? Even then, saying that it is a better feat than simply killing them all is not a likelihood, just a headcanon, using hax to do the same could also be said to require immense power, and do you mean kill everyone at once or 1/some at a time? Both seem pretty pointless.

What I said is just actual lore that is established by the game itself: One human SOUL is capable of crossing the barrier, but seven SOULs are required to actually destroy it. Your argument itself is founded on more headcanon than mine, anyway, considering that it's never really stated or shown the six SOULs teleported Frisk to outside of the Barrier: All that happens is that they rebel against Flowey and depower him, and then Frisk is back to the room in which they fought Asgore, and afterwards, they cross the Barrier.

You missed what I said. With a Human SOUL being able to cross the barrier O.Flowey having 6 should made him able to do the same, and yet you argued that his "current power isn't enough to break through the Barrier and extend his dominion over the outside world", to which I say that he could do the latter if he wanted to and that you made would now need to have the headcanon of him not wanting to pass through the barrier but destroy it also to make sense of it. All that when in reality, he simply lacked the power to do what he wanted. Heck if he can control gameworld itself in a way that is = to one-shotting it like you claim then he should by all means to able to destroy that thing too.

I might have gotten wrong the SOULs putting Frisk on the other side of the barrier or not, I don't think it matters.

It's not really a headcanon, when Undertale's entire cosmology is itself metafictional in nature, and functions of the gameworld such as SAVEs, LOADs, and RESETs are portrayed as meddling with the timeline as a whole, and the effects of Chara's destruction of the game program are likewise portrayed as universal destruction, all of which indicates that the gameworld is at the very least identifiable with the spacetime continuum as a whole. Headcanon would imply that it had no evidence and was just something that I declared without any evidence backing it up.

Yes, it is a headcanon and you have no evidence backing it up as all it have as the standard and more reasonable take to not be what you claimed them to be. Look if you have a comicbook and a character inside that can move its pages to go back and forward and that changes up time in the whole universe inside then good for that, if destroying the timeline inside the comic destroys the comic too then good for that too, but it doesn't mean that controlling random aspects of the comic makes the character Low 2-C, that is nonsense, a headcanon and has no evidence backing it up too. Destroying the timeline could have been so powerful than it destroyed the comic too, and even if they were much the same thing affecting some tiny aspects of it would not be as powerful as destroying all of it, changing present things shown on sight and texts is insignificant next to destroying everyone that is the thing.

And you still haven't provided any evidence that the gameworld which Flowey manipulates is in any way separate from the setting of the game itself, while I showed evidence of the contrary. "Undertale" being just a medium which allows us to look into the setting and only encompasses tiny parts of the universe is, again, an unfalsifiable claim, and unfalsifiable claims are subject to the Burden of Proof, basic shit, really.

I don't need to as I don't necessarily disagree with it, just that things as you portray it means the things you claim. O.Flowey was messing with Undertale, sure, but tiny parts of it (tiny parts of its programming) that allowed him to do the things he did, likely he can do some more stuff, but explicitly not things on the level as one-shotting the game as he lacks the power to even kill everyone in it (and there's no evidence he would be able to do that in the first place).

So, you are actually fine with the idea that a SAVE File contains your progress saved up within it, then? I don't see why Flowey destroying it would be a non-feat, then, considering that, under this scenario, a SAVE File contains a snapshot of the timeline, and he was able to smash one to bits. Although, that's irrelevant my actual point, anyway, since I never even brought up Flowey destroying your SAVE File being a feat: I was talking about the fact that different files do allow for different versions of the world to exist concurrently, and Flowey destroying your version of the world without any effect on his own was just evidence that they exist independently.

Containing the progress yes, but what is progress in context? Same as when saving progress in a video editor on a file; the file isn't its own video, it doesn't have its length of time and the things shown to us (likewise a SAVE file doesn't have time or space like the timeline), the file from the video editor is just used to set how the video itself will be organized and this info is much less than the video itself. Translating the analogy Undertale is at least the video and maybe even the video editor too, meaning that a SAVE file doesn't even do what we used it for but it just leads to Undertale itself using it for it. With and without that, destroying 1 and making many of them aren't feats that matter Tier 2 wise.

You're able to use a power to change the world (Time Manip, Time Travel or Causality Manip, any of those), you have that pretty much on a box to use them, someone destroys the box. Simple as that. Every time you used the power there was a record of it, yes, but what about it? Why would there not be?

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Could Flowey (6 SOULs absorbed) lighting up The Underground get calced? It's probably above 9-A
Edit:

 

[manu_zarri]

agree with Ultima_Reality FRA

 

[Antvasima]

So what are the summarised conclusions here so far?

 

[ShionAH]

Undertale is getting alot of downgrades nowadays

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

And, well, more's in-store, though I hope what I have in mind will be less controversial than this seems to be.

As for a summary, Ultima is disagreeing here, and the discussion is ongoing.

 

[KingPin0422]

Could Flowey (6 SOULs absorbed) lighting up The Underground get calced? It's probably above 9-A

Do we still accept feats of lighting up an area as being applicable for AP? Not that I would know if we should, I don't do calcs.

In any case, we know that the Underground is large enough to contain multiple cities (the Homes), a giant forest (Snowdin), and a huge reactor (Hotland), all while still having a ton of space left over, if that helps at all.

 

[ShionAH]

In any case, we know that the Underground is large enough to contain multiple cities (the Homes), a giant forest (Snowdin), and a huge reactor (Hotland), all while still having a ton of space left over, if that helps at all.

And theres 1000 likely higher citizen or monster

 

[Ari64-SP]

Could Flowey (6 SOULs absorbed) lighting up The Underground get calced? It's probably above 9-A

When did he do that? Also I’m sure we have a formula for that, though I really don’t know what it is.

 

[KingPin0422]

When did he do that? Also I’m sure we have a formula for that, though I really don’t know what it is.

It was when he was absorbing the SOULs of every monster in the underground to become Asriel Dreemurr, which is a True Pacifist Route thing.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

We know a minimum number of citizens from Mettston's show.

And I imagine they mean when he absorbs everyone's soul, which Naostablook describes as a light... that knocked on his door.

 

[KingPin0422]

And I imagine they mean when he absorbs everyone's soul, which Naostablook describes as a light... that knocked on his door.

Well, in that case, it's not real light, is it? I don't think we can use it if it isn't.

 

[ShionAH]

Well, in that case, it's not real light, is it? I don't think we can use it if it isn't.

Wait doesn’t that mean napstablook scales to it if its a real light making him FTL?

 

[KingPin0422]

Wait doesn’t that mean napstablook scales to it if its a real light making him FTL?

I mean, if it knocked on his door, then I can hardly consider it real light.

Also, we should probably stop derailing and get back to the main topic.

 

[ShionAH]

I mean, if it knocked on his door, then I can hardly consider it real light.

Also, we should probably stop derailing and get back to the main topic.

I dont think it knocked didn’t he say he saw a light come so he closed his curtains
Can someone give me his dialouge link?

 

[KingPin0422]

"i was just sitting at home listening to tunes | there was a flash of light outside my window | i saw the snails on the farm disappear | then i heard a knock at the door | the flash of light wanted to come in... i closed the blinds... | now everyone knows your name except for me"

Napstablook makes it pretty clear that the light knocked on his door, which is hard evidence against it being real light.

And again, we should get back on topic.

 

[ShionAH]

"i was just sitting at home listening to tunes | there was a flash of light outside my window | i saw the snails on the farm disappear | then i heard a knock at the door | the flash of light wanted to come in... i closed the blinds... | now everyone knows your name except for me"

Thanks

Napstablook makes it pretty clear that the light knocked on his door, which is hard evidence against it being real light.

Yeah it sounds weird

And again, we should get back on topic.

True

 

[KingPin0422]

Anyway, I'm still inclined to agree with Ultima for now, but with an ongoing thread to tighten our standards on tier 2, there may be a possibility that this would affect the argument for Low 2-C Photoshop Flowey. We're going to have to wait and see, though.

 

[Bowser-us]

just a meme because why not

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Just wait till I downgrade 9-A because that Calc is whack both in and out of context.

 

[Antvasima]

So what are the summarised conclusions here so far?

 

[RethPo]

Just felt like bringing something up a sec. Flowey does take frisk to an empty room right before the fight that he likely created. Could that get him anywhere above 9-A? If the rooms size can be measured

 

[ShionAH]

Just felt like bringing something up a sec. Flowey does take frisk to an empty room right before the fight that he likely created. Could that get him anywhere above 9-A? If the rooms size can be measured

Which fight omega flowey?

 

[RethPo]

Yeah. Frisk is teleported to a dark empty room after flowey fukks the game and whatnot. If the size of the room can be found it mayyyy be able to bring him up to tier 8 or at least solidify 9-A when the oven calc gets nuked.

 

[ShionAH]

Yeah. Frisk is teleported to a dark empty room after flowey fukks the game and whatnot. If the size of the room can be found it mayyyy be able to bring him up to tier 8 or at least solidify 9-A when the oven calc gets nuked.

I think thats just the void
Wait does flowey delete the game?? He did say he is stronger than chara!
WAIT A MINUTE.
When we walk around we see nothing like genocide ending.
Maybe he erased all of the game expect the players to torture us

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

I think thats just the void
Wait does flowey delete the game?? He did say he is stronger than chara!
WAIT A MINUTE.
When we walk around we see nothing like genocide ending.
Maybe he erased all of the game expect the players to torture us

I don't think he claims to have deleted it. As for that, the argument is about whether that's a tier-able feat, I think?

He claimed that while referring to Frisk. He says you and the soul you stole, but Chara at the time didn't actually steal the soul yet, and Charac's feat is done while soulless. Flowey also has no way to know about Chara.

Possible. Likely I think.

 

[RethPo]

I dont think flowey erased the game like chara did. When chara performs their feat you literally cant do anything but open the window and talk to chara.

Im just referring to the room frisk starts in. Its completely outside anything else in the game and is more than likely floweys doing. Creating a room like that should give flowey 9-A or possibly even tier 8 if its size can warrant that.

 

[ShionAH]

I don't think he claims to have deleted it. As for that, the argument is about whether that's a tier-able feat, I think?

He claimed that while referring to Frisk. He says you and the soul you stole, but Chara at the time didn't actually steal the soul yet, and Charac's feat is done while soulless. Flowey also has no way to know about Chara.

Possible. Likely I think.

Isn’t omega flowey stronger than chara since he has 6 souls while chara has 1

 

[Antvasima]

@Eficiente

Have you all made any progress here?

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Isn’t omega flowey stronger than chara since he has 6 souls while chara has 1

No. Chara's feat was performed without souls, that human soul is on top of their baseline power. And Frisk alone stalled Asriel in terms of Determination at the end of pacifist, and they are supposedly at their apex in end of genocide.

 

[Eficiente]

Flowey could have created the dark room, or it could have already existed, or it could have already existed in part and Flowey changed it into what we see of it, it's not worth a calc. We could have been basically fighting in that white space outside of the pages of comics Gwenpool can go to given our SAVE file was there, or any area outside of a certain setting characters can get into.

So what are the summarised conclusions here so far?

Same as in the OP with Ultima Reality basically stonewalling me over how O. Flowey is Low 2-C, if not intentionally. If other staff agree with it then they probably do so word for word and prefer Ultima to be the one arguing the matter.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Feel free to send notifications to other staff members who know about Undertale to help out if you wish.

 

[Eficiente]

@Ultima_Reality

 

[Ari64-SP]

Flowey’s dark room feat could be interpreted in a number of ways, though I think deriving a low 2-C feat out of it is a bit of a stretch. Also, it seems more in line with the majora s mask feat. More range and transmutation then actual destruction.

 

[Antvasima]

@Elizhaa @ArbitraryNumbers @Promestein @Saikou_The_Lewd_King @The_real_cal_howard @WeeklyBattles @Therefir @Starter_Pack @Andytrenom @DemonGodMitchAubin

Are any of you willing to help out with input here?

 

[ArbitraryNumbers]

I have not played Undertale in years, so I am afraid the input I can give here is limited.