Primal Kyogre CRT: Alpha Revision

[SamanPatou]

This thread's purpose is to clarify something about Primal Kyogre's tier.

Primal Kyogre is 5-B for being able to create a planetary storm in 1.95 (the calc is here)
The problem is that there are no evidences that this storm is really planetary.
This feat comes from Pokémon Generations Episode 8: The Cavern, where Archie awakens Primal Kyogre, who goes berserk and creates an extremely violent storm.
The only refererence regarding the planetary range comes from Matt saying "Primal Kyogre is going to sink the entire world!"
I have no doubt that Kyogre will sink the world eventually, but using only this statement to say that Kyogre spanned a storm over the entire planet in only 2 seconds is really a stretch, especially since it's not a clear and defined claim.
Even looking at the primary game, Pokémon Alpha Sapphire, isn't useful, because Kyogre transforms in his Primal Form only when you reach it inside the Cave of Origin.
Before that, Base Kyogre creates a storm, but initially it covers only Sootopolis, and will take time before extending over the entire region. In fact, you stop Kyogre before this happens.
Now, I don't know if without this feat Primal Kyogre and Primal Groudon (since it scales from its rival) have to be downgrade to a higher level of High 6-A or what.
They might keep the 5-B tier from the fact that they briefly fought with Mega Rayquaza in the anime (I can't find a video that isn't an AMV).
However, the game says a different thing: Primal Groudon and Primal Kyogre fought in the past, but Rayquaza defeated them both in his base form. This is confirmed by the fact that Rayquaza transformed only during the second clash with the Primals, but it didn't need the Mega Evolution to defeat them, Rayquaza used it to sap away their power.
And this creates a small inconsistency between the anime and the games, even though Mega Rayquaza easily defeated them, and it may have not needed the Mega Evolution.

 

[SamanPatou]

Bump

 

[Bobsican]

I'm fine with the downgrade, although I don't know where to fix the scaling afterwards.

 

[SamanPatou]

In absence of anything else to calculate or to scale them off, I suppose they would just upscale from their previous forms, into a higher level of High 6-A.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Disagreeing with the downgrade.

The storm feat doesn’t matter as much (though I don’t know why the OG Ruby and Saphhire games would have any bearing on how the remakes do the feat), but there’s nothing inconsistent about the weather duo being relative to Mega Ray.

Mega Ray didn’t “easily” win in the sense that your arguing he stomped them, he used delta streams ability to drain them of their powers overtime (the context suggests this since it said Rayquaza watched their powers be drained, meaning this was not something that happened immediately). There was no fight in the 2nd clash when Ray got mega evolution, he won through using hax.

The anime mega evolution specials fight is the one time we see the whole weather duo battle each other (outside the PIS ridden Hoopa movie) and while Mega Ray still wins against them handily, the latters were able to give a struggle. It wasn’t an outright curbstomp worthy fight.

“But Ray was able to beat them in base”

Base Rayquaza simply upscales then. The difference between Base Rayquaza and the primals just wouldn’t be as big as the difference between them and Mega Ray.

 

[SamanPatou]

Well, the storm feat matters because it's where the current planet level tier comes from.
If we accept scaling the Primals at least to base Rayquaza, they would still be 5-B, but for a more suitable reason.
My point isn't to downgrade them, but to not use the storm as a base, since the only reason it is calculated as planet level is a very fleble statement and the huge assumption that it covered the entire world in only 2 seconds.
I never mentioned the OG games, I talked about the remakes to show that they don't support the planetary storm

 

[Cropfist]

I agree with the downgrade.

 

[SamanPatou]

I mentioned Rayquaza to show that the anime is somewhat in contrast with the games, but also to offer an alternative option for their tier

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I agree with the downgrade to moon as well

 

[SamanPatou]

Why would they be moon level?
Until now, I thought that they would be either High 6-A upscaling from their base forms or still planet level backscaling from base Rayquaza

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

They wouldn’t be Moon. Their 5-B reasoning just gets replaced with backscaling from Mega Ray.

 

[Chariot190]

The planetary storm feat is wrong anyway. No where does it state it's planetary in the moment in the episode, and in game, it's explicitly planetary over time, with the initial storm only spreading from sootopolis to Fortree/Slatport (in both rse and oras), with the other half of the region being fine.

So we have a storm with no confirmed size in the episode, and in games it's explicitly not planetary, at least not without taking awhile.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

They wouldn’t be Moon. Their 5-B reasoning just gets replaced with backscaling from Mega Ray.

The storm feat doesn’t matter either way.

Simply backscale them from Mega Ray and be the end of it.

 

[Chariot190]

>Simply backscale them from Mega Ray and be the end of it.

Except they both lost to normal Ray, at the same time. And have been shown to not even hold a candle to Mega Ray's power in things like special, and we're even both knocked out cold and out of primal with a single dragon ascent in their best showing. They can backscale from normal Ray but I'm against scaling to Mega.

 

[Ionliosite]

I agree that they should be scaled to regular Ray instead of Mega Ray.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

They back scale from Base Rayquaza, not Mega Rayquaza.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

>Simply backscale them from Mega Ray and be the end of it.

Except they both lost to normal Ray, at the same time.

You know you can still lose to someone and still backscale right? That’s not an argument.

And have been shown to not even hold a candle to Mega Ray's power in things like special, and we're even both knocked out cold and out of primal with a single dragon ascent in their best showing. They can backscale from normal Ray but I'm against scaling to Mega.

>Simply backscale them from Mega Ray and be the end of it.

Except they both lost to normal Ray, at the same time.

You know you can lose to someone...and still backscale from them right? That’s not an argument.

It just means the difference between the primals and Base Ray isn’t as big as the difference between them and Mega Ray.

And have been shown to not even hold a candle to Mega Ray's power in things like special, and we're even both knocked out cold and out of primal with a single dragon ascent in their best showing.

This isn’t entirely true but thanks for leaving stuff out.

For one, Mega Ray using its strongest attack to beat the both of them only suggests the opposite, that they are in fact relative to him. Otherwise, Mega Ray would’ve never needed to go that far to beat opponents who, according to you, are so much weaker than him.

Second, they were knocked out by Dragon Ascent after a fight between them and Mega Ray went down. Lets go through the entire fight.

-Mega Ray used a Draco meteor against them that they handled without an issue.

-Groudon launched an attack that, at point blank range, staggered Mega Rayquaza and knocked it out of the sky.

-Primal Kyogre, at point blank range, was hit by Mega Rayquaza’s hyper beam and wasn’t knocked out.

Mega Rayquaza is obviously much stronger than the primals. There’s no denying that. But this idea that these 2 are not even remotely in the same area code of power as Mega Ray is completely wrong.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I disagree Kukui.

 

[Chariot190]

>You know you can still lose to someone and still backscale right? That’s not an argument.

Yes, which is why they're backscaling? I didn't say they don't backscale to Ray, just that they backscale to normal Ray, not Mega.

>It just means the difference between the primals and Base Ray isn’t as big as the difference between them and Mega Ray.

Actually it's been established there's a massive difference between base and Mega, in both special and the games, with base being incapable of defending against Grand Delta, and Mega being able to completely obliterate it. It's quite clear there's a hefty gap, obviously, given he goes from being incapable of doing anything to dusting it.

>For one, Mega Ray using its strongest attack to beat the both of them only suggests the opposite, that they are in fact relative to him. Otherwise, Mega Ray would’ve never needed to go that far to beat opponents who, according to you, are so much weaker than him.

Yes, the attack that Mega Ray performed his 5-B feats with. and yes, they're incredibly weaker in comparison, it's not even a joke. His base form managed to beat both Primals simultaneously without any need of a boost. His Mega form absolutely dwarfs his base. If Mega>>>>>>>>>>>Base>Both Primals at once. Obviously the Primals aren't scaling to the form that is vastly superior to the form that beat them both at once. And it's self evident elsewhere too, need I remind you that both Primals explicitly couldn't stop the ultra large Grand Delta Meteor in Special? But Mega ray annihilated it? Mega Ray managed to do something that both Primals together are incapable of doing, if memory serves, they even got ko'd by some stray debris of the smaller meteor, of course that's a anti-feat for them in regards to durability, but what it does show and makes evident is that both Primals are vastly weaker to the Mega Ray that could faceplant itself into the drastically larger and bigger threat of a meteor with zero damage while both primals got hurt by the weaker variant, anti-feat or not, the scaling and intent is clear.

>-Mega Ray used a Draco meteor against them that they handled without an issue. -Groudon launched an attack that, at point blank range, staggered Mega Rayquaza and knocked it out of the sky. -Primal Kyogre, at point blank range, was hit by Mega Rayquaza’s hyper beam and wasn’t knocked out.

The only thing you're really convincing me of is that Mega Ray is only that strong with a specific move if you really want to argue those examples. Or, alternatively, those examples are outright contradicted by the primary canon, the games, which supersede the anime, as well as being backed up by the manga and the like, the very source material where said 5-B feats happen. No offense but if the games, PMD, the manga and more say that Mega>>>Base>Primals, then that's likely the actual scaling here, otherwise the scaling would like this. Mega>Primals>Base>Primals>etc.

>Mega Rayquaza is obviously much stronger than the primals. There’s no denying that. But this idea that these 2 are not even remotely in the same area code of power as Mega Ray is completely wrong.

It ain't wrong when everything but a short anime sequence seems to imply, if not confirm, that they aren't even in the same vicinity. One is much more consistent than what you're trying to claim and comes from the primary source material, backed up by other sources as well. I've been told the the game's take precedent over the anime and the like in regards to what is used if contradictory information comes up, ergo, we use the games and the rest here.

The Primals can scale to base, but they ain't scaling to Mega Fug. they'd likely still be 5-B given Deoxys scaling, but not to such an extent that they'd be hilariously above Grand Delta and possibly even 4-B like Mega Ray is.

 

[Chariot190]

5-B, they can contend with base fug, who can contend with Deoxys, who is 5-B. If we scaled them to Mega they'd be 5-B, possibly tier 4, which is evidently not the case. Meaning, well, literally nothing changes here, just change the wording the on the profile to instead of scaling to the planetary storm, they backscale to Deoxys, which ironically enough, would result in a slightly higher stat, Kyogre's feat was 87 zettatons, Deoxy's low end is 148. Backscaling a bit from Deoxys would result in around the same, maybe a tad higher. If anything this thread is a negligible upgrade.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Actually it's been established there's a massive difference between base and Mega, in both special and the games, with base being incapable of defending against Grand Delta, and Mega being able to completely obliterate it. It's quite clear there's a hefty gap, obviously, given he goes from being incapable of doing anything to dusting it.

Thats not what I said. I said that the difference between Base Rayquaza and the Primal Duo wouldnt be as big as the difference between Mega Rayquaza and the Primal Duo. Not that there isnt a big difference between Base forms and Mega Evolution.

Yes, the attack that Mega Ray performed his 5-B feats with. and yes, they're incredibly weaker in comparison, it's not even a joke. His base form managed to beat both Primals simultaneously without any need of a boost. His Mega form absolutely dwarfs his base.

Yes, which is according to a vague statement of him overwhelming them. All we know is that Base Rayquaza's power is stronger than the 2 Primals, not that Base Ray's strength stomps theirs to the point where they are barely incomparable.

If Mega>>>>>>>>>>>Base>Both Primals at once. Obviously the Primals aren't scaling to the form that is vastly superior to the form that beat them both at once. And it's self evident elsewhere too, need I remind you that both Primals explicitly couldn't stop the ultra large Grand Delta Meteor in Special? But Mega ray annihilated it?

Actually your not entirely right here either. The Primals were unable to stop the Grand Meteor Delta because Maxie and Archie weakened them beforehand. The latters were bonded to Groudon and Kyogre via the red and blue orbs, and were in the process of being disintegrated. As a result, the Primals power was drained and allowed the meteor to overpower them.

Never in that special was it said or established they couldnt overpower it, they were screwed over by Maxie and Archie's deaths limiting their power.

Mega Ray managed to do something that both Primals together are incapable of doing, if memory serves, they even got ko'd by some stray debris of the smaller meteor, of course that's a anti-feat for them in regards to durability, but what it does show and makes evident is that both Primals are vastly weaker to the Mega Ray that could faceplant itself into the drastically larger and bigger threat of a meteor with zero damage while both primals got hurt by the weaker variant, anti-feat or not, the scaling and intent is clear.

See above for this.

>-Mega Ray used a Draco meteor against them that they handled without an issue. -Groudon launched an attack that, at point blank range, staggered Mega Rayquaza and knocked it out of the sky. -Primal Kyogre, at point blank range, was hit by Mega Rayquaza’s hyper beam and wasn’t knocked out.

The only thing you're really convincing me of is that Mega Ray is only that strong with a specific move if you really want to argue those examples. Or, alternatively, those examples are outright contradicted by the primary canon, the games, which supersede the anime, as well as being backed up by the manga and the like, the very source material where said 5-B feats happen.

There's no contradiction at all. In the games, Mega Ray explicity defeated them through hax via Delta Streams ability to drain them of their power overtime. The manga, again, is also not a contradiction since the primals were outright weakened by Archie and Maxie's deaths via being connected to them through the orbs. The only slither of an argument you have against me is Base Rayquaza being stronger than those 2, which, can mean anything from being light years ahead of them in power to only being barely stronger.

 

[Chariot190]

>Thats not what I said. I said that the difference between Base Rayquaza and the Primal Duo wouldnt be as big as the difference between Mega Rayquaza and the Primal Duo. Not that there isnt a big difference between Base forms and Mega Evolution.

Except the gap between base and mega Ray is so large that any notion of the primals backscaling to the mega is thrown out the window otherwise they'd murk base, which is obviously not the case.

>Yes, which is according to a vague statement of him overwhelming them. All we know is that Base Rayquaza's power is stronger than the 2 Primals, not that Base Ray's strength stomps theirs to the point where they are barely incomparable.

Nobody said he stomped them, nor did I imply that? The Primals and base can contend with each other, I said that. Base doesn't stomp them, he can defeat them both at once, but nobody said it was done with zero effort, we don't know. All we know is that Base>Both Primals at minimum. Thus, scaling base and the primals are fine. Nobody is arguing otherwise, in fact everybody here seems to agree with that notion. Though, checking the game, it's actually said that Base's strength was enough to overwhelm both the Primals at once. So the gap may be larger than I was giving it credit.

>Actually your not entirely right here either. The Primals were unable to stop the Grand Meteor Delta because Maxie and Archie weakened them beforehand. The latters were bonded to Groudon and Kyogre via the red and blue orbs, and were in the process of being disintegrated. As a result, the Primals power was drained and allowed the meteor to overpower them.

Yeah except not before being put on their ass by mere debris of the smaller one, which they had to work together to take down, and even then several characters had their doubts. And when it was revealed that there was actually two meteors, it was entirely like "well ****, where's mega ray". Did Maxie and Archie begin to die? Yes. But that doesn't somehow make the primals drastically weaker, that's never actually said anywhere. In fact, Archie and Maxie explicitly point out that they'd need much more power if they even hope to do anything about Grand Delta, then they proceed to fall apart because the tiny meteorite, comparatively, took up the remaining energy, and base fug and the primals then proceeded to take similar damage from the fall out, directly confirming that 1. The Primals lacked the power to stop Grand Delta, and if they wanted to, they'd need to get drastically stronger, opposed to Mega Ray who annihilated it completely. And 2. The Primals and base took about the same damage from the fallout, implying a similar scale of power, ie, not comparable to Mega Ray but base. And that last bit is false, they actually succeeded in destroying the meteor, the small one, it was the fact they succeeded that drained them, but they stayed Primal long enough to get put on their ass, which doesn't actually change my point at all. It's shown clear as day that the Primals can't hold a candle to Grand Delta and the Dragon Ascent that destroyed it, took about the same amount of damage from the fallout of the same one as base did. This is pretty obvious. Giovanni even makes mention of how the meteor coming in a few days is likely hundreds of times larger and that it took the primals and base all that power just to destroy that smaller one, and funnily enough, he's wrong, Grand Delta is billions of times bigger. But honestly that doesn't matter, the point is, it took both Primals and Base to destroy something, it taking so much power that it accelerates Arche and Maxie's death, that it literally kills him, with the fallout putting the primals on their ass, knocking them out (and mind you, they got hit while they were still in primal, Arche and Maxie dying would have just reverted them back to normal, but it wouldnt have knocked them out cold, that was the debris' doing), yet Mega Ray could obliterate something hundreds (actually billions) of times bigger with one attack. I'm just repeating myself now but you get the point, it's not even comparable. Mega Ray>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Base/Primals.

>Never in that special was it said or established they couldnt overpower it, they were screwed over by Maxie and Archie's deaths limiting their power.

It actually was, Archie and Maxie outright they say they arent strong enough to do so, and that was before they started falling apart, in which case they proceed to fall apart right after because the small meteor was a big enough issue for them already. Also you keep saying it limits their power, but that's not actually true, it doesnt actually say that, it limits the time they have and the time they can stay primal as they need a host, but that doesnt actually effect the Primals output unless I missed something somewhere, that's just conjecture on your part.

>See above for this.

Yes, I even went ahead and reread the ORAS chapter. I was only slightly wrong on it being said the Primals were incapable of destroying Grand Delta, it was said, but just not by who I thought it was. Either way. The debris knocked them on their ass despte getting hit in Primal, Arche and Maxie stated they would need to get much stronger if they ever hoped to stop Delta because at the moment, they're struggling with something hundreds of times smaller (actually billions). They take comparable damage to base, not mega. And it's made quite clear that Mega Ray can do said feat with zero issue at all, no hesitation.

>There's no contradiction at all. In the games, Mega Ray explicity defeated them through hax via Delta Streams ability to drain them of their power overtime. The manga, again, is also not a contradiction since the primals were outright weakened by Archie and Maxie's deaths via being connected to them through the orbs. The only slither of an argument you have against me is Base Rayquaza being stronger than those 2, which, can mean anything from being light years ahead of them in power to only being barely stronger.

Yes, Mega Ray beat them and Delta Stream stopped their weather, nobody said or implied it was overtime though. Actually, this is what we're told.

Base was powerful enough to outright overwhelm both Primals at once with raw power. Thus, Base>>Primals.

The second time, the primals got into a clash again, the people wished for ray to come save them, that wish and praying called Ray and automatically turned him Mega due to the connection of the people, upon going mega, his Delta Stream then proceeded to sap the power from both Primals, turning them into their base, after which Mega Ray flew away.

What's this mean? It means your claim is false, or at least is implying a falsehood, there was no overtime, there was no fight. Mega Ray incapped both without even needing to lay a finger on them, we're told that both primals lost their power when Delta Stream activated, with zero implication or statement of a drawn out fight, or any fight at all, in fact it implies it was super fast and happened then and there judging by the wording.

So, we have Base being strong enough to overwhelm both Primals at the same time. And we have Mega Ray passively incap with no mention of any sort of fight. And we know that Mega>>>>>>>>>Base. Put two and two together here. If Mega Ray humiliates his base form, and his base form can overwhelm both primals together, then it sure as **** doesnt mean the primals can contend with Mega Ray.

Like dude, I can easily just post the scans and screencaps. You're not wrong on some aspects, yeah, Archie and Maxie did die, and that prevented them from being Primal, but it's also true it took all their effort to stop the meteor at the time and was stated they would fail against Grand Delta by themselves and they don't have the power yet, this was before they began vanishing, with them vanishing being a direct result of the effort it took to stop the small one. And yes, archie and maxie vanishing would revert the primals back to base, but, they were hit while in primal and got knocked out by said hit, they weren't hit in base or got knocked out because of Archie and Maxie, but rather knocked out by debris in primal, in fact base fug in that same event managed to walk off getting hit by the debris despite being in base. Or, yes, Delta Stream did defeat the the Primals in game, but, not overtime and there was no fight, couple that with it being said base was strong enough to outright overwhelm both at once.
You can scale the Primals to Base, but under no circumstance is scaling to Mega Ray happening when the Primals are weaker then base, and base is a laughing stock to Mega, they're consistently shown to be around, albeit weaker than Base as well. You trying to scale them Mega Ray is ludicrous, the only way that would happen is if the Primals could stomp base, yet that's false.

 

[Chariot190]

I'm not really arguing this further, I've said my part and even bothered to read the arc despite it being 3am at night just to make sure that nothing was to far off.

Mega>>>>>>>Deoxys=?=Base>?>Primals.

They can scale to 5-B via base and Deoxys scaling. But they aren't suddenly becoming hundreds of times stronger then Base and getting possible Tier 4 scaling as well, it's dishonest, inconsistent, and outright wrong. If others want to agree with your reasoning that's fine by me but unless you find way more evidence and statements that supersede the other primary sources, blatant showings and contradictions (as well as a damn good explanation of how the primals can contend with Mega Ray, when mega ray is strong enough to outright oneshot his baseform, with said base form being explicitly above both primals), I'm going to have to disagree till further notice.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Yeah, I'm gonna agree with Chariot here. They downscale from Base Ray and Deoxys, which ironically enough is more of a Negligible Upgrade as said before.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Responding in a bit

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Actually on second thought, nevermind. I forgot that Base Ray also has him fighting Deoxys as another 5-B feat, so scaling from Base Ray would still save 5-B for the Primals.

Sorry.

 

[SamanPatou]

Then we all agree to put the Primals in 5-B because they are able to contend with base Rayquaza? Or someone wants to change the wording? Like comparable to, fought with etc...

 

[Chariot190]

'''Planet level''' (Fought Primal [[Kyogre]] countless times. Together they could contend and fight against [[Rayquaza]] for a time before being overwhelmed, who in turn is comparable to [[Deoxys]]).

Just slap that on the profile, switch kyroge for groudon for his profile.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

'''Planet level''' (Fought Primal [[Kyogre]] countless times. Together they could contend and fight against [[Rayquaza]] for a time before being overwhelmed, who in turn is comparable to [[Deoxys]]).

Just slap that on the profile, switch kyroge for groudon for his profile.

This.

Sorry again btw Chariot. If I remembered Base Ray fighting Deoxys, I wouldn’t have argued for them scaling to Mega Ray.

 

[SamanPatou]

Since we reached an agreement, and no one seems to contest it, I will apply the changes

 

[Dragopentling]

Yea I agree that the 5B should be them scaling to Rayquaza in general due to being at least able to fight him (even though they are clearly outmatched regardless of which form Rayquaza takes)

 

[Bobsican]

Bump.

 

[SamanPatou]

I already applied the changes two weeks ago, I forgot to ask for the closure of the thread