"Realms with starry skies" feats

[Warren_Valion]

Let's keep Castlevannia topics to Castlevannia CRTs, I shouldn't have brought it up.

 

[SamanPatou]

I think you did well, that's the topic of the thread, bringing and questioning examples of what is currently used and considered "starry sky" is perfectly on topic.
We deviated a bit on Castlevania, but it's already over.

 

[00potato]

I mean what does “graphical effect.” even mean in this circumstance?
Are those stars just like glowing cotton balls disguised as stars? What do they mean in-story?

 

[Warren_Valion]

That they exist there purely for visual effect and do not relate whatsoever a character's abilities or tiering.

Essentially, they don't exist in-story.

 

[SamanPatou]

They exist as an effect of the things done by the character or as part of the environment, it's just something to please the eye

 

[00potato]

That seems ridiculous, you can clearly see them, what evidence is their that the dots don’t exist in the background in many of these verses?
What evidence is their that it doesn’t matter exist? If we see the creation and it ain’t an outlier, it has bearing in their power.

They exist as an effect of the things done by the character or as part of the environment, it's just something to please the eye

Again, that needs evidence. We see dots in what looks like space, the natural conclusion is “Star.” If it was established as that in-verse then sure, it ain’t a 4-A feat but that is a conclusion that needs more solid evidence.

 

[SamanPatou]

I think that evidences should be brought for them being actual stars in a distorted area, since it's used to skyrocket people to cosmic tiers.
Also, it doesn't seem space to me, way too often it's just a shady background and call some lights stars it's a huge stretch

 

[00potato]

Black background, white dots. The natural conclusion is stars. It is clearly made to look like space.
You would need to prove it isn’t that, is it glowing bubblegum done for style?
If one or two of those alone are bumping people up, then the issue would be consistency, not the feat itself.

 

[Warren_Valion]

Just because something happens or we see or hear something, especially in a video game, doesn't mean that said things are really happening.

There can always be a disconnect between the game and the lore of the world.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I find this a really bad time to be debating for feats like this; especially since the new forum is not ready to tackle controversial subjects and especially not site wide revisions such as this, but creating pocket dimensions large enough to contain starry skies are very much 4-A. However, there should be evidence that a starry sky dimension was actually created. Everlasting already went over them in detail; a simple wave your hand and the background was changed to a starry sky for one attack is indeed "Not legit".

• A boss created an alternate dimension and claimed it's his world
• The dimension has been shown to be warped significantly or violently shaken during battle
• The dimension collapses or shatters upon the bosses defeat, implying they stabilize said dimension.

2 out of the three examples above were enough to qualify. There should also be proof of a dimension being created/destroyed as opposed to simply being teleported to or away from. Or a portal making them hop from one dimension to the other. This is not proof of a Galaxy level feat, but this is a solid 4-A feat.

 

[SamanPatou]

I still think we should be very sceptical on every feat and analyze it with a critical eye.
There have to be evidences (even statements) of them being stars, if not really, but reeeeally blatant.
I mean, for the YGO characters we did a lot of research and analysis (and it was the right thing to do) and ended up with them being High 4-C, with the whole setting having way more claims and related stuff than a boss or an unearthly environment having a shady background with random dots in it and no explanation whatsoever.
When claiming that something is suited to be a clear justification for a whole and high tier (especially if it scales to many characters) you need more solid proof than "To me, it looks like a starry sky, hence it must be so"

 

[Antvasima]

I agree with Medeus.

If our current standards already state what he says, I think that we should close this thread.

 

[Armorchompy]

Medeus really hasn't said anything that counters the argument of "it might just be a graphical effect".

However I can agree with this being the wrong time to open the thread.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I already have said on other threads case by case analysis, but if something is described as a massive world or dimension, that would logically imply it's a large body of space. Or even, the dots being poor quality isn't always the best argument; a lot of really old video games don't have the best graphics to begin with and even recent video games don't always bother to make human characters, towns, continents, planets, stars, galaxies, ect drawn to scale in a realistic matter. But yes, it some characters cases, I would describe it more as Illusion Creation rather than an AP feat. Or even dimensions specifically stated to only be planet sized at best, but seem to have what looks like a sun, moon or stars; those could be miniature suns or stars. There are plenty of details or flavor text that can either support or argue against feats being concrete.

 

[SamanPatou]

I think it wasn't even his intent.
Do we have at least a standard regarding the subject?
Anyway, if it's not the time we can always pause the thread and tackle it in the future.

 

[Armorchompy]

I think we just disagree on how to evaluate this stuff, not on anything regarding it, which is nice.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

There are details albeit not quite as organized as the way I worded out, but still more or less points out concerns I mention on the Pocket Reality Manipulation page.

 

[Antvasima]

Medeus:

Do our current pocket reality standards need to be modified?

 

[SamanPatou]

Sorry if I jump in, but the main problem wasn't even tied to pocket realities, the topic was intended to consider the wider conception of "starry sky", when and how it should be used, what should be considered as such etc...
Pocket Realities are part of the subject as a consequence, but not the main argument.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I think that page is where our standards for this are written.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I am fine with Starry Sky feats as long as:

1. It is made clear that what was created was an actual dimension with real space-time and not just some illusion, or distorted realm, or immersion effect

2. There's reason for you to believe the "shining dots in the sky" are actual stars.

3. There's reason to believe why this would scale to the character's offensive power.

If we applied this level to scrutiny to fictions in general, 90% of Starry Sky feats would be bunk, but the concept wouldn't be overrun entirely.

 

[SamanPatou]

I totally agree with you

 

[Antvasima]

It doesn't seem like our current Pocket Reality Manipulation page mentions anything about starry skies.

Should we add something about this issue there? We would preferably need input from several bureaucrats, consultants, and administrators first though, and I feel overwhelmed in general from everything going on.

 

[Antoniofer]

Personally I consider pocket dimensions creation as a non-factor scaling wise, but several characters across several verses jump few tier merely thanks to that kind of feats and nothing else.

OK, it's factible to create a pocket dimension thanks to the combination of several powers (mainly Creation and Spatial Manipulation), in which case it may be more likely to scale to offensive powers (although, I would consider the creation of the dimension as a preparation feat for this purpose); but if that is true one would expect to use these powers in any other instances, while most of the time is simply teleporting to a personal domain (maybe gaining additional powers while remaining there).

If perfectible factible for the pocket space to have illusory effects, appear to have stars and other celestial bodies, and have unlimited space; but that is something that I would associate with powers rather than an AP rating.

 

[Armorchompy]

I very much do agree with Matthew.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Black background, white dots. The natural conclusion is stars. It is clearly made to look like space.
You would need to prove it isn’t that, is it glowing bubblegum done for style?
If one or two of those alone are bumping people up, then the issue would be consistency, not the feat itself.

Sorry to bump in, but this is basically my same thought.

What I believe is an issue with these type of feats isn’t that the feat itself is wonky, but how it’s auto scaled over to peoples AP is wonky.

Since these feats are common, people commonly scale them over to upgrade people without realizing that it may or may not be outlier. Or it not scaling to AP in the first place.

The feats themselves should be fine, so long as it isn’t something so obviously and blatantly not real. We should just be careful on why it would or wouldn’t scale.

 

[Armorchompy]

I agree that them usually scaling to people's AP is perhaps the bigger issue. Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't all of Mario's feats on that level starry sky feats?

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Basically, pocket dimension feats should just be looked at through the same lens we would use to judge creation feats as a whole.

Give a reason it scales to normal AP. Not go “ooh pocket dimension feat, 4-A upgrade time!” automatically.

Do that and the actual problem should be greatly lessened.

 

[Armorchompy]

I agree with that, though I still think the starry skies themselves are a bit questionable.

 

[00potato]

Yeah everything should be a case by case basis pretty much, I sorta agree with Kuckui on this but I would be a little less strict, in most cases the feat would be no different from any other.
Unless it was done via an external tool with no relation to the characters, is arguably not creating anything, or any similar reason, it would be a valid scaling feat.

 

[Armorchompy]

I think that's a bit too lax. I mean, just because it takes a certain amount of energy to create a storm doesn't mean you punch hard as hard as that energy, and we don't scale like that.

 

[Purgy]

I think that's a bit too lax. I mean, just because it takes a certain amount of energy to create a storm doesn't mean you punch hard as hard as that energy, and we don't scale like that.

Logic dictates that if you can create a storm with your energy, then you should be able to use that same amount of energy in your attacks.

And there are many storm feats that scale to AP here.

 

[Armorchompy]

I still don't think the way we scale storm feats, or creation feats of other stuff is consistent with the way we scale starry skies feats

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Our methods on creation feats in general would absolutely apply to starry sky feats though. Literally the only difference between feats is the scale of them.

Creating a Low 2-C realm is no different than creating a 4-A one besides one being much smaller in scale. Your still creating space-time and the things present within the realm.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

I agree with Kukui and Matthew’s takes on this.

There should be good reason it applies to the character’s offensive power, especially if other feats in the series are nowhere near Tier 4.

 

[KingTempest]

Logic dictates that if you can create a storm with your energy, then you should be able to use that same amount of energy in your attacks.

Logic does not dictate that at all.

When you are creating a storm, the only boundaries you have are

1. The space around that you can make the storm in
2. The speed you create it.

I don't need to worry about Newton's law to make a storm, I can just will a storm into existence with no consequences to myself since all the energy is being pushed into the atmosphere.

When you are exerting energy in your punches (I know you said attacks, but ArmorChompy said punches), the boundaries you have are

1. The space in your fist that can hold the amount of energy
2. If your body can hold that amount of energy
3. If your body can tank the recoil (Newton's Third Law)
4. The method of releasing it.

Some starry skies/storms take a certain amount of time to create, while a punch is instantaneous. You can't compare them because they share a user.

Basically, pocket dimension feats should just be looked at through the same lens we would use to judge creation feats as a whole.
Give a reason it scales to normal AP. Not go “ooh pocket dimension feat, 4-A upgrade time!” automatically.
Do that and the actual problem should be greatly lessened.

I agree 100%, there needs to be a good reasoning on why it would scale to anything outside of just creation based AP.

The creation page says this

Attack Potency Scaling​

Note that this only applies to the character's capacity to harm other characters if their Creation is connected to their other abilities; for example, it can be reasoned that a mage who can conjure a city with little mana can destroy one with the same amount of mana, however a character who can create objects without other ways of harming their opponents wouldn't be able to harness that power to hurt another character, and would fall under a light form of Environmental Destruction.

Which should fit under it as well.

I'm confused on why it wasn't under creation in the first place.

 

[Armorchompy]

That is what I intended to say yeah, just a lot better.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I agree 100%, there needs to be a good reasoning on why it would scale to anything outside of just creation based AP.

The creation page says this

Which should fit under it as well.

I'm confused on why it wasn't under creation in the first place.

Id say the 2 best ways to prove it scales to AP is if its:

1. Made from your own energy; self explanatory
2. Done in an offensive manner/action (if its done during the phase of an attack, that strongly implies the energy use to create the realm is used in your regular attacks, not to mention the dimension itself being apart of the attack)

There's probably more ways to go about it, but these 2 are at the top of my list as the best/strongest ways to legitimately scale your X AP to Y creation.

Now as for what should be looked at more carefully, would be PR feats that are done through some kind of ability or technique a character has. While not impossible to scale to AP, it absolutely should never be assumed to scale like an ordinary attack would, let alone a casual one.

And cases where a dimension is created off panel or off screen would need to require the most amount of evidence out of them all for obvious reasons.

 

[Antvasima]

This concerns a site policy and is a staff forum thread. Unless we keep it staff only from now onwards, as staff forum threads should be, it will turn too chaotic, and not get enough authority behind it, to get anything done. It will just waste the time of everybody involved in a completely pointless manner

 

[Armorchompy]

I understand that, though I feel Kukui's making some really good points and it'd be a shame if it got rejected because he couldn't talk.