Speed Equalization Standards

[Axxtentacle]

I think those should count as "attacks" and be relative.

Ah so speed equalization goes to the slower character? In the case of immeasurable speed vs finite speed in equalization. This would negate immeasurable speed bypassing passive hax. Which that would answer all my questions lol

I seriously disagree that characters should have their passives and such nulled because of speed equalization, for the same reason we don't restrict the naturally faster character's speed amp from letting them blitz. It's blatantly unfair, and afaik, we don't do that for that exact reason.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

I think those should count as "attacks" and be relative.


I seriously disagree that characters should have their passives and such nulled because of speed equalization, for the same reason we don't restrict the naturally faster character's speed amp from letting them blitz. It's blatantly unfair, and afaik, we don't do that for that exact reason.

There's a big assumption that started recent on verus battles on the wiki.

Immeasurable speed > passive abilities

The reasoning is like this

Passive hax = instant/Infinite speed

Immeasurable speed is > Infinite speed



Therefore attack before the hax goes off.

if speed equalization goes to the slower character, then this shouldn't be a problem.

 

[Greenshifter]

What you said is correct, just not in speed equalized. Is the same reason why an immeasurable speed being can dodge temporal omnipresent attacks, or at least attack before the temporal omnipresent being does.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Question, I could be blind, but is there a note stating that speed equalization goes to the slowest character anywhere?

 

[Greenshifter]

Nope. That’s what this thread and all it’s predecessors are for.

 

[Qawsedf234]

There isn't one, which is one of the reason why this thread was made. The generally agreed ideas are

• Speed is equalized to the slower character
• Attacks independent of the users speed scale proportionally. A lightning-speed independent attack would retain its speed even if equalized to a lower level. A supersonic character using a gun or bow that's faster than they are will keep its relative greater speed even if moved to a lower level.
• Amps still apply. So Kaio-Ken x4 Goku would still be 4x their equalized speed.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

There isn't one, which is one of the reason why this thread was made. The generally agreed ideas are

• Speed is equalized to the slower character
• Attacks independent of the users speed scale proportionally. A lightning-speed independent attack would retain its speed even if equalized to a lower level. A supersonic character using a gun or bow that's faster than they are will keep its relative greater speed even if moved to a lower level.
• Amps still apply. So Kaio-Ken x4 Goku would still be 4x their equalized speed.

Question on proportionally equalized just to check if i am understanding it correctly.

A character that is MFTL+ in the Octillions in terms of their attack speed is pitted against a character whose fastest attack speed is only super sonic. (Independent attacks like guns and bullets etc randomly example)


The MFTL+ Character would have their attack speed equalized down to the lower upper limit of the slower character's attack speed? OR would their attack speeds remain unchanged?

 

[Qawsedf234]

The MFTL+ Character would have their attack speed equalized down to the lower upper limit of the slower character's attack speed? OR would their attack speeds remain unchanged?

If the MFTL+ character is using a MFTL+ gun that's five times faster than they are, then when equalized down, the gun will remain five times faster than they are. Attacks with a stated and unchanging speed would remain unaffected by equalization. Lightning bolts with stated lightning speed will always be mach 1200, not matter if the character is 12 m/s or 12,000,000,000 m/s.

 

[Axxtentacle]

I thought Amps only applied in the case that the slower character couldn't blitz the faster one?

 

[Qawsedf234]

Amps are allowed up to the point where they would reliably win a hard majority with a speed blitz.

 

[Antvasima]

Isn't this supposed to be a staff only thread?

 

[Axxtentacle]

No, it was started by a non-staff member.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, but in the staff forum, and regarding a wiki policy issue, which should be decided by the staff.

 

[Axxtentacle]

Either way, as far as I know, non-staff are allowed to discuss and comment as long as we're not being disruptive. I don't believe anyone here has been disruptive, looking back at the thread.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, you should technically get permission from some prominent staff member first, but alright then.

 

[Qawsedf234]

He's fine to comment. Its important to get questions about the new definition out now so it doesn't crop up later.

 

[Regidian]

If we do a vs in speed equal with a guy that have supersonic speed but immeasurable object (like the low tier umineko with Truth) vs a guy with passive, do the passive will be more quick or the immeasurable object that need to be thought by the supersonic will be more quick ?

 

[Qawsedf234]

If the MFTL+ character is using a MFTL+ gun that's five times faster than they are, then when equalized down, the gun will remain five times faster than they are. Attacks with a stated and unchanging speed would remain unaffected by equalization. Lightning bolts with stated lightning speed will always be mach 1200, not matter if the character is 12 m/s or 12,000,000,000 m/s

 

[Regidian]

I talk more if the immeasurable atk will be able to reach before the passive of the enemy's or the passive will still be quicker

 

[Greenshifter]

Immeasurable speed > passives without speed equal being involved.

 

[Regidian]

Immeasurable speed > passives without speed equal being involved.

I talk with speed equal involved but having a immeasurable special atk vs a passive atk, do the immeasurable will still able to be supperior to the passive one, if he need to be thought actived?

 

[Axxtentacle]

I would say that Immeasurable should still be > passives. If you say otherwise, it’s just nerfing the Immeasurable character for no good reason.

 

[Mr._Bambu]

I would say that Immeasurable should still be > passives. If you say otherwise, it’s just nerfing the Immeasurable character for no good reason.

I would say, in my humble opinion, that the point of speed equal is to make speed equal. So that a fair match can be had. If you make the exception for "except with passives for this small caste of characters", then that is just nerfing the opposite party for no good reason when the name of the rule sort of implies everything you need to know, no?

 

[Axxtentacle]

Well, if they fought with speed unequalized, the immeasurable speed character would naturally have the advantage anyway. If you do that with speed equalized but let passives work as they should against someone who’s supposed to be immeasurable, then it’s just a nerf to the immeasurable person, and gives the other fighter an advantage they wouldn’t have in normal circumstances.

 

[Mr._Bambu]

Correct. That's the point. To make it so speed does not enter the equation. So it nerfs the faster character. That's the entire point.

 

[Axxtentacle]

Yeah, but it’s an ability that comes from the speed. You’re restricting an ability the character has just because it comes from their speed, which is something that shouldn’t be done, since it’s an ability.

Maybe it should be taken on a case-by-case basis? If the passive ability working causes the match to be a stomp, the immeasurable character should have their ability to nullify it? I don’t know, it’s iffy.

 

[Mr._Bambu]

Yeah, but it’s an ability that comes from the speed. You’re restricting an ability the character has just because it comes from their speed, which is something that shouldn’t be done, since it’s an ability.

Maybe it should be taken on a case-by-case basis? If the passive ability working causes the match to be a stomp, the immeasurable character should have their ability to nullify it? I don’t know, it’s iffy.

Anything speed related is equalized. I cannot stress enough how this is the point of speed equal, to make it so their respective speeds don't enter the equation. The purpose of speed equal is not to lay out a list of explicit rules regarding what the term implies- the purpose is to give users an easy way to say "ignore speed in its entirety for the match I have made".

Your proposal goes entirely against that philosophy and thus I disagree. Making a single exception for Immeasurable speed vs others is bad and oh-so-yuck.

 

[Axxtentacle]

But speed equalized doesn’t ignore speed in it’s entirety, a naturally faster character can amp themselves to speed blitz, the slower character can amp themselves as well, as long as they don’t blitz. It doesn’t go against speed equalized for that reason, i’m trying to find a reasonable answer for this specific issue with speed equalized. Attack and Combat speeds are supposed to be equalized in a relative way, as previously discussed. Speed isn’t ignored entirely, it’s just given restrictions.

 

[Mr._Bambu]

But speed equalized doesn’t ignore speed in it’s entirety, a naturally faster character can amp themselves to speed blitz, the slower character can amp themselves as well, as long as they don’t blitz. It doesn’t go against speed equalized for that reason, i’m trying to find a reasonable answer for this specific issue with speed equalized. Attack and Combat speeds are supposed to be equalized in a relative way, as previously discussed. Speed isn’t ignored entirely, it’s just given restrictions.

The first example sounds like equalizing speed to me, and then allowing other abilities to still function. Which ain't what we're talking about here.

Immeasurable characters can be passive'd by non-immeasurable characters, case closed.

 

[Antvasima]

Bambu makes sense to me, as usual.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

additional question, Is "process of thought speed" equalized too?

For example, thought based active abilities that rely on the speed of a characters thought process.

 

[Greenshifter]

According to what Qawsedf said though the immeasurable speed ability would still blitz the passives in speed equal since it’s an independent attack. Good luck finding a case where this is relevant though.

 

[Armorchompy]

just equalize the passives to immeasurable lmao

 

[Greenshifter]

additional question, Is "process of thought speed" equalized too?

For example, thought based active abilities that rely on the speed of a characters thought process.

Yeah pretty sure that falls under reaction speed being equalized.

 

[Armorchompy]

oh by the way, while this is very obvious it should still be put in the rules whenever they're typed out, but of course the exception to speed equalizing to the slower character should be when that character is immobile or almost immobile, unless you want batman to die of old age against a coral when i put them 5 km from each other

 

[Bobsican]

According to what Qawsedf said though the immeasurable speed ability would still blitz the passives in speed equal since it’s an independent attack. Good luck finding a case where this is relevant though.

Sun God Monkey now gets stomped by Yogiri instead of an incon, neat

 

[Rikimarox2]

Bambu still disagrees with that though, no?

 

[Regidian]

I think the immeasurable would be more quick but since he need an action he would still fall below the passive one no in speed equal since the time the guy do the action/though for the immeasurable atk, the passive will have already reached him

 

[Antoniofer]

additional question, Is "process of thought speed" equalized too?

For example, thought based active abilities that rely on the speed of a characters thought process.

As I suggested, charging against a target and swing a sword is a more complex action than shooting a though-based telekinetic though; doesn't means the psiot is faster, but it tends to have the initiative.

 

[Greenshifter]

Bambu still disagrees with that though, no?

I don’t think Bambu explicitly addressed the “independent ability” part.

 

[Greenshifter]

I think the immeasurable would be more quick but since he need an action he would still fall below the passive one no in speed equal since the time the guy do the action/though for the immeasurable atk, the passive will have already reached him

That depends on what their reaction speed is. If it’s just a finite reaction speed then they’re still screwed unless they resists the passive.

oh by the way, while this is very obvious it should still be put in the rules whenever they're typed out, but of course the exception to speed equalizing to the slower character should be when that character is immobile or almost immobile, unless you want batman to die of old age against a coral when i put them 5 km from each other

Speed shouldn’t be equalized against immobile characters since it’s essentially a state of being.

 

[Lou_change]

What if all character A's powers are a combination of skill and speed. Does character B who can copy skills get to copy character A's powers if they couldn't without speed equalized?

What about characters whose normal laws of physics would kill them if they move like at the other characters speed or have a curse that makes them unaffected by gravity or something and SBA would make it so the milky way galaxy ditches them?

What about omnipresent characters?

What if a character has perception manipulation to slow the other character's perception is that a speed amp?

What if a character can be in 2 places at once do to speed(immeasure speed should allow this in theory) can their opponent stop them?

 

[Axxtentacle]

I did directly say that it was an ability, and Bambu disagreed. So no, it won't null passives if we use that.

 

[Antoniofer]

Speed equalization makes the speed the same in their respective most proficient form of combat, so 50% of striking each other (speed wise) in normal conditions; skill is not something that is altered in speed equalized matches..

That case seems extremely specific; up to you to decide what happens.

[Nigh] Omnipresence is not speed.

Not related to speed equalization, if speed amps work fine, speed damping also works.

BBe in two places at the same time through speed is not possible, the user must have a power that allows it to do so, or have immeasurable rating.

 

[Axxtentacle]

I mean, if the speed is equalized to where they don't have the affect that allows them to null passives, then they shouldn't have the ability to be in multiple places at once either.

 

[Lou_change]

Maybe we should make immeasure speed an ability, as it in theory gives.

Resistance to causality, time, space, matter, and physics manipulation(very nature of being able to move at that speed grants this)

Duplication(can move thru time allowing them to enter the same point in time effective duplicating them)

Time travel and Teleportation(basic movement allows this)

Time stop(can stay in the same point in time)

Many more I don't remember.(why do I know this? I want to write something with a character who has this ability leading me to do research.)

 

[Axxtentacle]

So, unless Immeasurable becomes an ability itself, speed equalized completely nulls all abilities Immeasurable gives, as they wouldn't be fast enough to do any of that.

 

[Lou_change]

Do we just stop adding speed equalized matches with immeasurable speed characters to profiles?

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Maybe we should make immeasure speed an ability, as it in theory gives.

Resistance to causality, time, space, matter, and physics manipulation(very nature of being able to move at that speed grants this)

Duplication(can move thru time allowing them to enter the same point in time effective duplicating them)

Time travel and Teleportation(basic movement allows this)

Time stop(can stay in the same point in time)

Many more I don't remember.(why do I know this? I want to write something with a character who has this ability leading me to do research.)

Huh.... you might have a point....

 

[Axxtentacle]

That could be a good option, since speed equalized takes away a lot of Immeasurable character's abilities. Input from staff is 100% needed for that though.

 

[Antoniofer]

Considering that immeasurable speed has little sense, and is rarely share the same applications from verse to verse, I wouldn't be surprised that is considered to be a power, or alternatively be an state of being; personally I would consider it as such.

But that decision is not up to only you or me.

 

[Axxtentacle]

Bump, this obviously isn't concluded yet.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

I think it would be right to not equalize attack speed such as bullets

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

I think at this point it might be best to summarize the important things to note on this thread, and then after the summary is finalized. Perhaps tag some staff for final discussion? This is just my opinion..

 

[Antoniofer]

I suggested to not equalize independent speed ratings: fire weapons and attacks with [stated] constant speed would keep their speed; now, speeds that are just calculated to be that x fast but not stated are equalized, but keep their relative speed related to the most proficient combat speed.

 

[Mr._Bambu]

my vote remains for relative equalization. Everything is as fast to one party as it appeared originally in their own verse.

 

[Axxtentacle]

There's something that isn't concluded yet. Does speed equalized just completely neg the abilities Immeasurable characters have for being immeasurable? If so, how do we treat Immeasurable characters in fights like that?

 

[Duedate8898]

Equalization of speed is something done to prevent speed blitzes, however it is made a point that if the equalization of speed occurs and the slower character wins primarily due to this equalization of speed then it isn't allowed. This seems like one of those cases in which slower characters would win primarily due to speed difference so I don't think immeasurables should lose the benefits that their speed grants them.

 

[Axxtentacle]

If they are affected by passives because their ability to null passives is restricted because they're slower, then they would lose the rest of their abilities for Immeasurable as well.

 

[Axxtentacle]

It either goes all the way one way or the other with this, it makes no sense to cherry pick which ability is restricted and which isn't.

 

[Lou_change]

So what do we make a list of rules for speed based powers, what about characters that actually use KE.

 

[Duedate8898]

If Equalizing speed actively hampers one's character's kit I don't think that means of equalizing speed should be allowed.

 

[Antvasima]

My vote remains for relative equalization. Everything is as fast to one party as it appeared originally in their own verse.

Mr. Bambu makes sense to me.