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Speed Equalization Standards

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If Equalizing speed actively hampers one's character's kit I don't think that means of equalizing speed should be allowed.
 
Necro, but a few things were missed:

Immeasurable wouldn't beat passives in unequal either, assuming it's the sort that would instantly end a fight. This is because the characters don't start in motion. They're still starting in a definite time and place, but in a time and place where an effect is already happening, and their starting position is going to occur before any potential action. When the passive instantaneously wins a fight there's not exactly a future to go back in time from, so that doesn't really work.

Saying that literally everything speed related doesn't count is inconsistent with the timehax resists and shit that we've given people like this for years, so you may want to amend that statement.
 
The passive "instantaneously" activates, which takes a time span of t = 0. However an Immeasurable character can dodge things that take less time than 0 seconds. They may not be constantly in motion, but immeasurable speed also isn't some ability that gets turned on and off, so they would be able to react and outmaneuver the passive ability.
 
Duedate8898 said:
Equalization of speed is something done to prevent speed blitzes, however it is made a point that if the equalization of speed occurs and the slower character wins primarily due to this equalization of speed then it isn't allowed. This seems like one of those cases in which slower characters would win primarily due to speed difference so I don't think immeasurables should lose the benefits that their speed grants them.
Click to expand...
I agree with this btw. Keep attack speed and stuff relative unless it causes scenarios that causes the slower character to have an advantage by acting faster under speed equal.
 
I'm still against that line of thinking- slower characters having the opportunity to win regardless of speed is indeed the purpose of speed equalized. What Duedate (and consequentially Gyro) are referring to is the practice of amplifying speed to win being disallowed for characters who are only of equal speed in the first place thanks to speed equal.
 
Axxtentacle said:
So you're in support of things like time stop resistance via speed and such are null in speed equal?
Click to expand...
That's really the only complexity to the matter as far as I see it. I would say I'm in favor of passives working on immeasurable and allowing immeasurable characters to work with speed equal- anything other than this seems dumb.

Time hax, however, with its unique interaction with this matter, is a gray area as far as I'm concerned. I'd understand if it didn't get treated the same.
 
If the resistance is speed-based, then via what you said earlier, it's nullified if they're equalized to a slower character.
 
Personally, I would be in favour of equalizing things by scaling them relative to combat speed, like others have suggested.
Equalizing everything is a bad take, as every ranged weapon would become completely useless. It's just not possible to snipe someone from 2km away with bullets moving at running speed.
Leaving 'independent' speed unequalized IMO has weird results. Like a character that is as fast as his own bullets, suddenly become way slower than them. Furthermore, I think what is an 'independent' speed would in many cases be controversial. With magic and weapons build into cyborgs and stuff it's sometimes hard to tell.

In total, I would suggest this system of rules:
  • The combat speed of that faster character is equalized to the combat speed of the slower character. Every other speed the faster character has is reduced by the same multiplier. This includes the speed of any attacks, projectiles, reactions, perception, flight etc.
  • Speed Amplification techniques grant the same percentile of increase to a character's equalized speeds, as they would to their usual speeds.
  • Any speed equalized match, where a major reason a character loses is due to having a disadvantage against some speed value they usually wouldn't have a disadvantage against, may not be added to profiles.
    • As a result, winning a speed equalized match against a faster opponent due to a speed boost so large that it blitzes the opponent will not be added.
    • Matches in which characters with Immeasurable speed lose against not-immeasurable passive abilities would likewise not be added, as the Immeasurable characters would normally be faster than the instantaneous passives.
    • While time stop, which could be viewed as an infinite speed amplification, works even on characters that would resist it via speed, those matches can likewise not be added.
  • Abilities based on speed are retained. Characters that can run over water via speed can, for example, still do so even if now technically too slow for that. Likewise, a character who can create a tornado by running fast in a circle can still create one by this manner, even though they are now running slower.
    • As a result, Immeasurable characters that get speed equalized retain their ability to travel through time, even if it now isn't via speed anymore.
 
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I do agree with relative equalization. If you equalize everything to the same then the very meta of a fight changes, after all in a boxing match the two boxers are gonna be punching faster than the other can run, but if you make their punches relatively slower, the game completely changes and becomes way more defensive, and at that point you're not even arguing who wins, just who fits the new rules better
 
Well, when you equalize speed you expect weird results to happens; characters fast enough to run over water will no longer be able to do that, cameras will now be able to record speedsters, etc. Being as fast (or faster) than bullets its just a coincidence, unless the character have the power to gain the speed of a projectile (in whose case is not equalized).
 
I think you fail to realize how drastically that affects ALL fights. Even a simple fistfight between two people would change completely, as the punches one throws are normally faster than their running speed.
 
When I say independent speed I refer to those where it do not depend of the chaarcter condition; travel speed and attack speed depends of the character condition.


That part falls under my other suggestion:
AoE attacks can't be dodged through combat speed (although may be blocked if the character has the ability to do so), no matter the speed difference; its reduced to what its the maximum distance that the defender can cover in one movement and the range of the AoE attack (although, I'm aware that this is not something that profiles lists).
Click to expand...
 
Antoniofer said:
Well, when you equalize speed you expect weird results to happens; characters fast enough to run over water will no longer be able to do that, cameras will now be able to record speedsters, etc. Being as fast (or faster) than bullets its just a coincidence, unless the character have the power to gain the speed of a projectile (in whose case is not equalized).
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I would argue characters with the ability to walk over water should be allowed to continue doing that, even if they shouldn't speed wise. Similar how characters that can create tornados by running fast in circles should be allowed to do that. Actually, let me add that to my suggestion above.
The camera thing is basically a perception speed case, so I see no issue in that. If the camera belongs to a character that is adjust just as everything else.

Generally, I would just like to change the character's fighting style as few and possible, in order to represent them better. Relative equalization seems to do that best.
 
Plus, from your example from above, if a character whose "standard" speed is as fast as bullets fight a character way slower that uses firearms too, then the speed of first chaarcter will be reduced to the second one, but the speed of its firearms will remain the same; otherwise that would involve make firearms from both fighters way slower.
 
DontTalk's suggestions seem very good to me, but I am the wrong person to ask.

What do the rest of you think?
 
I think changing the character's fighting style the least is what we should aim for, so I agree
 
I like DT's suggestion, and I believe it matched what AssaltWaffle proposed back when he was an active Admin on the wiki.
 
Ok, so how do we handle characters with firearms? I suggested the independent speed cuz, if we use relative speed, then it would benefit the slower character when both fighters use firearms.
 
I think firearm speed should be equal between the two combatants, well, of course if one has a muzzle speed of 300 and one 600, the latter will still be twice as fast.
 
That's basically what I suggested, since both firearms have independent speeds, they aren't equalized; if a character can move as fast as its projectiles, when equalized its standard speed get reduced to the standard speed of the slower character, but the muzzle speed remain the same.
 
Yeah I can vibe with that as long as the rest of DT's suggestion stays
 
Stuff like lead bullets that are meant to be rated from their own calculations or scientific bearing and nothing more, I'm fine with those being the same.
 
Antoniofer said:
Ok, so how do we handle characters with firearms? I suggested the independent speed cuz, if we use relative speed, then it would benefit the slower character when both fighters use firearms.
Click to expand...
I would rather they get equalized as well tbh. Seeing how supernaturally fast guns are no issue, I don't think equalizing one gun to be faster than another would be a problem. And, as said, this would affect the fighting style of the user, since it now can't keep up with its own shots anymore. Typically the opponents of such characters can also keep up with their bullets, which is a huge reason to even do any close combat gun fighting style.

I also have the impression that it would be pretty controversial to decide what an independent speed is. Like, a gun? Sure that's easy. What if it is an energy gun build into an android? Is that still an independent speed?
What about magic? When is a spell independent and when not? If we have a MHS+ lightning spell on a MHS+ character and no further context, do we consider it independent or not?
Does everything with an attack speed that is different from combat speed automatically considered independent?
What about summons and the like? I assure they wouldn't be considered independent, since otherwise they would be broken in speed equal, but when is something intelligent enough to not be considered independent anymore?
 
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One most be aware that, when equalizing speed, one will alter several factors of the fight: talking about the same example, if you say that character X speed = bullet speed, then that either means this character is going to speedblitz character Y (if the speed difference is big enough), or reduces the speed of the projectiles (in whose case they're going to be reduced to uselessness).

As for what qualify as "independent speed", welp, in principle it was a rule for firearms and other realistic projectile weapons, but it also apply to attacks that have a stated set speed. But by standard, no supernatural attack wouldn't qualify as "independent speed".
 
DontTalkDT said:
Personally, I would be in favour of equalizing things by scaling them relative to combat speed, like others have suggested.
Equalizing everything is a bad take, as every ranged weapon would become completely useless. It's just not possible to snipe someone from 2km away with bullets moving at running speed.
Leaving 'independent' speed unequalized IMO has weird results. Like a character that is as fast as his own bullets, suddenly become way slower than them. Furthermore, I think what is an 'independent' speed would in many cases be controversial. With magic and weapons build into cyborgs and stuff it's sometimes hard to tell.

In total, I would suggest this system of rules:
  • The combat speed of that faster character is equalized to the combat speed of the slower character. Every other speed the faster character has is reduced by the same multiplier. This includes the speed of any attacks, projectiles, reactions, perception, flight etc.
  • Speed Amplification techniques grant the same percentile of increase to a character's equalized speeds, as they would to their usual speeds.
  • Any speed equalized match, where a major reason a character loses is due to having a disadvantage against some speed value they usually wouldn't have a disadvantage against, may not be added to profiles.
    • As a result, winning a speed equalized match against a faster opponent due to a speed boost so large that it blitzes the opponent will not be added.
    • Matches in which characters with Immeasurable speed lose against not-immeasurable passive abilities would likewise not be added, as the Immeasurable characters would normally be faster than the instantaneous passives.
    • While time stop, which could be viewed as an infinite speed amplification, works even on characters that would resist it via speed, those matches can likewise not be added.
  • Abilities based on speed are retained. Characters that can run over water via speed can, for example, still do so even if now technically too slow for that. Likewise, a character who can create a tornado by running fast in a circle can still create one by this manner, even though they are now running slower.
    • As a result, Immeasurable characters that get speed equalized retain their ability to travel through time, even if it now isn't via speed anymore.
Click to expand...
@AKM sama @Promestein @Ryukama @Ultima_Reality @Sera_EX

What do you think about these suggestions?
 
Antoniofer said:
One most be aware that, when equalizing speed, one will alter several factors of the fight: talking about the same example, if you say that character X speed = bullet speed, then that either means this character is going to speedblitz character Y (if the speed difference is big enough), or reduces the speed of the projectiles (in whose case they're going to be reduced to uselessness).
Click to expand...
If a character as fast as the very bullets he uses fights a character of equal speed, their bullets were always useless at long range. Even without speed equalization, if he meets a character as fast as him, then his bullets could only be useful in close combat. What that means is that this characters fighting style would already be based on close combat stuff and having him fight like that is no different to his normal combat style.

Sure, if the other, slower, character is a human with a gun, then the humans bullets would be faster. Not his combat speed, though, so it wouldn't be a speedblitz unless the characters as fast as his bullets would be incapable of dealing with gunfire the way humans would (aimdodging and searching cover).
If that happens, by my suggested rules, the catch wouldn't be added, which in my opinion seems like an acceptable outcome.


Antoniofer said:
As for what qualify as "independent speed", welp, in principle it was a rule for firearms and other realistic projectile weapons, but it also apply to attacks that have a stated set speed. But by standard, no supernatural attack wouldn't qualify as "independent speed".
Click to expand...
Well, then I am against it out of principle. Having users of realistic projectile weapons profit more from speed equal than all their supernatural counterparts would be extremely unfair.
 
Although, I would argue that, in the case of facing someone as fast as it (in the same category), defending against a charging adult is moderately easier to defend against a diminity projectile hard to see and parry, but that is unrelated. Basically, speed equal match between people with firearms (or crossbows) means their standard combat speed is the same (the speed of the slower one), but their projectile weapons keeps their real speed, in which case, the weapon with the higher muzzle speed with remain faster (doesn't mean character are instanly hit, as they can get over or aim dodge); personally, this is most fair outcome.

As for the magic, this situation happens cuz magic lack speed feats, and thus they are directly scaled to standard (generally melee) combat speed. I have no inmediate solution to this issue tho, if the wizard is a zoomer (was it called that? Don't confuse it with the meme) you expect its magical (or ki) projectiles to be faster than its melee combat speed, but that an unrelated issue.
 
DontTalkDT said:
Personally, I would be in favour of equalizing things by scaling them relative to combat speed, like others have suggested.
Equalizing everything is a bad take, as every ranged weapon would become completely useless. It's just not possible to snipe someone from 2km away with bullets moving at running speed.
Leaving 'independent' speed unequalized IMO has weird results. Like a character that is as fast as his own bullets, suddenly become way slower than them. Furthermore, I think what is an 'independent' speed would in many cases be controversial. With magic and weapons build into cyborgs and stuff it's sometimes hard to tell.

In total, I would suggest this system of rules:
  • The combat speed of that faster character is equalized to the combat speed of the slower character. Every other speed the faster character has is reduced by the same multiplier. This includes the speed of any attacks, projectiles, reactions, perception, flight etc.
  • Speed Amplification techniques grant the same percentile of increase to a character's equalized speeds, as they would to their usual speeds.
  • Any speed equalized match, where a major reason a character loses is due to having a disadvantage against some speed value they usually wouldn't have a disadvantage against, may not be added to profiles.
    • As a result, winning a speed equalized match against a faster opponent due to a speed boost so large that it blitzes the opponent will not be added.
    • Matches in which characters with Immeasurable speed lose against not-immeasurable passive abilities would likewise not be added, as the Immeasurable characters would normally be faster than the instantaneous passives.
    • While time stop, which could be viewed as an infinite speed amplification, works even on characters that would resist it via speed, those matches can likewise not be added.
  • Abilities based on speed are retained. Characters that can run over water via speed can, for example, still do so even if now technically too slow for that. Likewise, a character who can create a tornado by running fast in a circle can still create one by this manner, even though they are now running slower.
    • As a result, Immeasurable characters that get speed equalized retain their ability to travel through time, even if it now isn't via speed anymore.
Click to expand...
@SomebodyData @The_real_cal_howard @Dragonmasterxyz @Celestial_Pegasus @Soldier_Blue @Saikou_The_Lewd_King @Andytrenom @DarkDragonMedeus @Wokistan @Mr._Bambu @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @ByAsura @Damage3245

What do you think about this?
 
Already voiced my approval of that, yeah.
 
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