Upside Down Man/Great Evil Beast revisions

[Deagonx]

Ok... What's your point. It's still Lucifer vol 3 that I'm talking about and not Lucifer vol 4.

... I don't see how you failed to understand what I'm saying. The GEB retcon wasn't in vol. 3 (the Wild Hunt storyline) of Lucifer (2018). The "volume 4" is just issues 19-24 of Lucifer (2018), which is also sometimes called "volume 3" because it's the third Lucifer run. Volume 3 of Lucifer (2018) was #14-#19. Volume 3 did not have the GEB retcon.

No one's backpedalling. Lucifer volume 3 ended in february 2020 and you're trying to use vol 4 to replace volume 3's end date.

Lucifer (2018) ended in February 2020, with the 4th and final volume being published in February. Again, you are conflating two different meanings of the word volume. Read my post again, slowly, and try to understand where you made the error.

Likewise, you gave the publication date for issue 17. The end of vol. 3 of Lucifer (2018) was 19. You are wrong on literally all aspects of what you're trying to assert.

 

[Xearsay]

Well then it's Lucifer vol 2 it appears in. Which is even lower. However that doesn't matter as JLD is ongoing in 2021. You still lose.

 

[Deagonx]

Well then it's Lucifer vol 2 it appears in. Which is even lower.

The volumes are just collections of issues for graphic novel format, they arent the end of anything.

However that doesn't matter as JLD is ongoing in 2021.

You literally just said it wasn't. Future State is not JLD, and whilst the JLD might be in the story, that doesn't mean anything. Lucifer didn't stop existing in DC after the issue was published.

 

[Xearsay]

The volumes are just collections of issues for graphic novel format, they arent the end of anything.


You literally just said it wasn't. Future State is not JLD.

Yeah well I was wrong. It's ongoing. Only that section of it ended.

 

[Deagonx]

Yeah well I was wrong.

Well as long as you're able to recognize that.

 

[Xearsay]

Well as long as you're able to recognize that.

As long as you're able to recognize that Lucifer doesn't retcon JLD then that's fine lol.

 

[Deagonx]

Your very own metric for saying it didn't was proven wrong, so why would I recognize that?

 

[Xearsay]

Your very own metric for saying it didn't was proven wrong, so why would I recognize that?

How was it proven wrong? JLD is ongoing and continued recently in February 2021. Lucifer didn't. Making Lucifer less recent than JLD.

February 9th > January 27th. You lose.

 

[Deagonx]

JLD isn't ongoing. The team appeared in an issue of Future State. That's not the same as a story continuing, that just means the characters still exist in DC, which is obvious.

By that absurd logic, every time Lucifer or JLD appeared in an unrelated comic it would be a game of continuity leapfrog.

The JLD issues connecting "The Great Darkness" came out prior to the Lucifer retcon, and from that point JLD stuck to saying "the Darkness" occasionally and never The Great Darkness.

 

[Xearsay]

No the story is continuing from where it left off with the surviving team members fighting in a war against Merlin.

 

[Deagonx]

Yes, the team still exists and came up in Future State. This changes nothing as Justice League Dark ended.

 

[Xearsay]

Yes, the team still exists and came up in Future State. This changes nothing as Justice League Dark ended.

It did not. It’s picking up where it left off in JLD 28 with Merlin. Which means it’s continuing. Like.. what’s not clicking?

 

[Deagonx]

I've already explained this. JLD appearing in a different comic book doesn't mean Justice League Dark didn't end. The team still exists in DC and will continue to interact with the world outside of having their own dedicated line. This is equally true of Lucifer. Again, the model you are suggesting is that guest appearances in separate comic books would create a silly game of continuity leap frog and makes no sense. Whats not clicking?

 

[Xearsay]

Your argument doesn’t address anything because I never said it’s a continuation because it has the same characters. I said it picks up off the surviving team members fighting off against Merlin which is merely just me referencing the plot.

 

[Deagonx]

Yes. The team appearing in another comic is obviously going to connect to their most recent appearance.

The simple fact remains, Future State is not Justice League Dark just because it has that team in it. It's a separate comic entirely.

 

[Xearsay]

Obviously but that’s irrelevant to my point.

How does it being a separate comic mean anything? Lucifer issue 1 and Lucifer issue 2 are separate comics. Lol nice point.

 

[Deagonx]

Comic =/= Comic book issue

 

[Xearsay]

You realize “comic” is just a shortened way of addressing a comic book or strip right? So when you say it’s separate comics you’re not proving anything.

 

[Deagonx]

A single comic book can have many issues. For example, Gaiman's "The Sandman" is a comic book that has 75 issues. Justice League Dark (2018) had 29 and was canceled late last year. Lucifer (2018) had 24 and ended in February.

Case in point, you claimed Lucifer ended before Justice League Dark and used that claim to justify the notion that Lucifer couldn't have retconned JLD. You were proven wrong, and now you're moving the goalposts.

 

[Xearsay]

And a comic book could also only be one issue lol. Once again you have no point. Also it just became a back up book to Justice League. The storyline still continued though. So once again February 9th > January 27th.

And even then the notion of GEB = Lucifer was only presented in the span of 2 issues. Meanwhile JLD incorporate the entire notion into the plot line and built off.

 

[Deagonx]

February 9th wasn't an issue of Justice League Dark. It was an issue of Future State.

Meanwhile JLD incorporate the entire notion into the plot line

And was then retconned. Besides this, the position of the Presence relative to the Other Place makes the notion far too incoherent to apply it for scaling purposes regardless. Too much about the Presence has changed since American Gothic what with him being the primordial power that facilitates the very existence of a Sphere of the Gods/Otherplace in a single multiverse amongst trillions that he's responsible for.

 

[Xearsay]

Yes it did. It’s literally a back up strip to Justice League.

Lol JLD’s plot line extends beyond those 2 issues so no the entire story literally can’t be retconned lol.

 

[Deagonx]

The entire story wasn't retconned, merely the connection to the original "Great Darkness" which was more or less flavor text, since nothing about the Otherplace nor Upside Down Man nor their origin had literally anything to do with a giant black hand reaching out to God, nor was it related to a giant primordial darkness that was curious about the nature of it's existence. It had nothing to do with the darkness that existed before God said let there be light, because the Otherplace was created with the DC universe.

So, no, your wild exaggeration that "the entire storyline was retconned" is false. A single aspect of it was retconned, and that aspect was not referenced after Lucifer retconned it.

 

[Xearsay]

No that changes the entire storyline because that implies that they’re rescuing Zatara for no reason and that Zatara also died that day for no reason. Which treats the whole story a part from beginning to end.

 

[Deagonx]

The threat of the Upside Down Man and the Otherplace don't change if the connection to American Gothic is removed, and neither do any of the plot points connected to that. Likewise, the fight that killed Zatara could just as easily be connected to cultists worshipping the Otherkind.

The point remains, however, that Lucifer severed that connection.

 

[Xearsay]

Yes it does lol. It’s an essential part of the plot that the GEB was a sliver of the Otherkinds power that escaped and killed Zatara causing him to end up in the Orherplace. If the Otherkind isn’t a sliver of the Otherkinds power that escaped then that plot point doesn’t exist. Which means Zatara never sacrificed himself and never ended up in the Otherplace. Which contradicts the entire storyline.

 

[Deagonx]

You're barely responding to my points and have moved the goalposts several times. You've already been thoroughly debunked so I see no reason to beat a dead horse.

Regardless, the retcon happened. You don't need to like it for it to be true.

That said, this upgrade is clearly unwarranted. 1-C is probably generous as it is, and you gave no good evidence as to why it should be upgraded.

 

[Xearsay]

Sorry buddy but an entire story line that extends beyond Lucifer’s 2 issue reference cannot be retconned.

Lol I gave plenty of evidence. Source Wall is 1-A on here. So Tearing down the Source Wall would be 1-A.

 

[MichaelJZero]

It did not. It’s picking up where it left off in JLD 28 with Merlin. Which means it’s continuing. Like.. what’s not clicking?

What isn't clicking is his failure to address that he omitted the rest of the conversation from the debate community for nearly an entire year. As well as just flat out trying to censor the entire Metal Series itself telling us that the Source Wall, as soon as the heroes breeched the source wall in Metal, they entered the Dark Multiverse. So this is a fib. But lets deep dive even more.

He also said the Dark Multiverse wasn't made by a Monitor, when in fact it was made by Alpheus and is the collection of broken and discarded universes that didn't make it to the positive creation. So nobody here wants to call this guy out for censoring the entire metal series? Anyone who read Metal knows the Dark Multiverse was the creation of a Monitor.

Next, he said "If you are capable of creating a servant equal to Hecate, then you are far more powerful than Hecate. It makes no sense that he would be wiped out by a being, yet he is strong enough to create a servant to defeat her."

Another blatant mistruth, as multiple deities had to group to pull resources to forge Eclipso. "The other great powers" had to do this, not just one. The text on the comic panel does't seem to matter to Deagon.

Next, he said "Hecate isn't stronger than the Presence. Hecate is the embodiment of the Collective Unconscious, which is one of the Connective Energies that the Presence grants to Super Celestials to create multiverses. In other words, the Presence literally spawned the Connective power which Hecate is born from."

Two debunks here, first Hecate came before all those Gods, sorry. The comic said it clear as a bell.

Second, he used Wally West talking about what he feels about this and just told everyone that wally west is now more credible than the authors narrative box in the comic and also the Chronicler, who came from the Overvoid, who has knowledge of trillions of Multiverses. This could be the worst counter I've ever heard. The context was explained in the finale issues that the power of Crisis Energy is NOT from the Presence, but of the moment and NOTHING ELSE.

Nothing Else doesn't mean whatever you want it to mean. It means NOTHING ELSE. We do not listen to the commentary and speculation of Wally West over the narration box and the smartest most intelligent being in existence tell us the opposite of what Wally did.

Chronicler confirmed twice in this comic that the Source is the Overvoid and that the entire Sphere of Gods was shaking and dying due to Perpetua and BWLs fight

Presence is the Source in this canon. He isn't. The Overvoid is.

Next, he said I am misrepresenting the evidence, while at the same time getting caught censoring his conversation with that author, telling everyone that Alpheus didn't belt out the Dark Multiverse and that Death Metal never said the Overvoid was the Source. It in fact said it three times or more.

Next, he said "Again, you are deeply editorializing your scans and falsely representing what they say. The Source Wall is not implicated at all in those scans."

Which is also a censorship attempt, because we who have read Dark Knight Metal know that the moment they breached the Source Wall, they immediately entered the Dark Multiverse. The Fuginauts were the ones protecting anything from getting out of the Dark Multiverse and into the Positive matter multiverse. And they could only get into the positive due to the crack in the Source Wall. I am just...is anyone else even reading anything this guy has been saying but me? The only thing left for him to say is that Superman never wore a red cape with an S on it. And that he never originated from Krypton.

Next, he things the Capitol G makes the Presence the supreme god of all things outside of the comic book boundary and fictive edge of the artwork. Let's see if that is true. Nope, it isnt

Capital G for God. Twice.
TWO capitol G's lol

Next, he said the Monitors didn't call the Source the Prime Monitor. I guess I have to crop the already super cropped scan. Ok,no prob

He wanted to become the Source? THE PRIME MONITOR is a myth, a legend!

What Deagon is doing here isn't debating. this is just disregarding all scans that debunk him,.

Next, he said "Elaine narrated that in that specific trip to the void outside the Source Wall, that he "ignored" the Source. There is no evidence that he never met the Source."

Which also isn't true, he was not in the Void nor was he outside of the Source Wall. Deagon takes this backward, of course. Because taking it backward means he would be right. The scan says " he went to the edge of everything and there was something out there called The Source, but he ignored it."b He never went past that point. He was floating above the Aleph. The Source was beyond that area.

Next, he said "Your scan does not say that at all. You are editorializing your evidence."
I showed three out of the four scans from the Metal series that directly show the Overvoid as the Source.

Next. he says that The Presence is God and that its the same as the Overvoid

The Presence knows how the Multiverse got there and didn't send Chronicler.
The Overvoid has no clue how the Multiverse got there, and did sent the Chronicler

Deagon feels these two sentences are identical


With respect, to anyone reading this. At no point, literally no point in his retort was he objectively correct on one line. Not a single line. He went as far as trying to shill that the Dark Multiverse wasn't made by Alephus. Unbelievable.

*needs to chill, and breathe, stressed now, lol

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Great Darkness being an aspect of Lucifer is blatntly wrong and not implied in the actual comic. Twitter Comments from authors don't go by editorial reviews and are not approved for publishing and hence aren't canon, the actual comic doesn't indicate that.

The Great Darkness is indeed only a fragment of "The Otherplace", but I don't think that "The Source / The Presence" is meant to be included in the Gods that Hecate is more powerful than. It's possible that the hand that matched the Great Evil Darkness was just a fragment of the Presence anyways, at least that's how I figure.

Or, more accurately, there is a distinction to be had between Yahweh and "The Presence / The Source" who is described as a boundless, unconscious and abstract deity, and the former is actually weaker than Hecate.

Either way I agree with 1-A for Upside-Down Man and Hecate.

 

[Ned_the_outer_god]

I agree with this

 

[Xearsay]

Great Darkness being an aspect of Lucifer is blatntly wrong and not implied in the actual comic. Twitter Comments from authors don't go by editorial reviews and are not approved for publishing and hence aren't canon, the actual comic doesn't indicate that.

The Great Darkness is indeed only a fragment of "The Otherplace", but I don't think that "The Source / The Presence" is meant to be included in the Gods that Hecate is more powerful than. It's possible that the hand that matched the Great Evil Darkness was just a fragment of the Presence anyways, at least that's how I figure.

Or, more accurately, there is a distinction to be had between Yahweh and "The Presence / The Source" who is described as a boundless, unconscious and abstract deity, and the former is actually weaker than Hecate.

Either way I agree with 1-A for Upside-Down Man and Hecate.

Agreed. I see it as the Presence(1-A version) was beneath Hecate but the Source itself was still beyond Hecate.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

The "1-A" may be incompatible with the current Perpetua Creation Story anyways.

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

The "1-A" may be incompatible with the current Perpetua Creation Story anyways.

Doesn't dc have multiple conflicting yet true creation story?

 

[Antvasima]

@Matthew_Schroeder

I would appreciate if you can figure out how we should properly reorganise our DC tiering structure based on this. Should we downgrade "The Presence" profile page, along with The Great Evil Beast, Lucifer, Michael, and Gabriel, or use some other approach? Making The Upside-Down Man and Hecate High 1-A would obviously be extremely exaggerated.

 

[Sandman31]

-snip-

anyway, thanks for reading

One major problem is that you're cross referencing from different comics, written by different writers that are like decades apart. That line by the Presence already has an explanation that doesn't involve straying too far from the Sandman/Lucifer mythos.

"Because it is the nature of Dreams, and ONLY of Dreams, to define Reality. Destiny is bound to existence. Death is limited by what she will or will not accept "
-The Sandman: Overture

Creation is pretty malleable, human dreams, beliefs and stories can shape creation. They shape creation from its beginning to end, ab aeterno. Even the Presence was created by dreams and he's not the only Creator, it has been mentioned that there will Creators after the Presence, that there are creators and creations before the Presence.

1

"I mean all of it. Humans make up bullshit stories about where they came from and where they're going. And they live in them. They turn the whole of eternity into a ******* soap opera. Reality is messy and scary. Stories give a kind of shape to it"

The Presence is shaped by his own creations, the mortal realms and even other deities believing him to be the way he is. The more that believe in him, the stronger he is believed to be, the stronger he actually becomes.

That's not how it really works, Creation and The Presence is shaped by dreams and beliefs but The Presence doesn't need it for sustenance. The Presence wont get weaker if less people pray, because in this version of Creation he's already the top dog. Everyone can become an atheist tomorrow and it wont do anything to the Presence because in this version of Creation, he is the Creator. Everything in Creation is basically branded with the name of the Presence so the only way a god can become more powerful than him is if you replaced Creation itself or if the Presence abdicated just like in Lucifer. Dreams shapes everything, its can shape things that happened even before Creation existed.

Why do you think the Titan Brothers in Lucifer had to wait for the Presence to abdicate before they can do their plan of replacing him?

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/Jvm0Si4X8ejFbq_tF8A1sTW0MoTEoi8rYF2u52k7zK1Qrg5wNZBMysxXNgdLRnMZEg1Wq9DljHzm=s1600

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/htbn3JYjhCd_8HarZ61yCw4SEDNZnzI5lXav0awcOGLfWpBi4Oo6bFOoXpadsBnK6eJmZo3HmDcI=s1600

The Presence occupies a role, and the only way you can occupy that role is if the Presence is gone.

The "external factor" line is already explained within the comics and related titles, you don't need to add "explanations" from other titles that were written decades prior or after to prove things that are just not there.

 

[Antvasima]

the whole "DC continuity is a mess" is getting really old

It contradicts and retcons itself constantly. It is the truth as far as I am aware. What do you want me to say?

 

[Antvasima]

Anyway, I think that Sandman31 makes sense. Thank you for helping out.

 

[Sandman31]

Also, If we go by what Metron said about beliefs, then the true top dog of DC will be Mother Night and Father Time. As they were stated to be responsible for the existence of all versions of Creation and is the progenitor of the "dreams and belief" system.

 

[Antvasima]

@Zensum @C2_of_Omegon @Eficiente @SuperAPM @Firestorm808 @EmperorRorepme @LuciferDC099 @Ehnkr2beboh @Tllmbrg

I would still appreciate your input here, as the full scale of this is complicated to create a coherent tiering structure from.