DC Comics: Acausality revisions

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

• The Monitor, Anti-Monitor, World Forger, and Ultra-Monitor have Type 2 Acausality for existing beyond time, which isn't a valid justification for Type 2 Acausality, so this should be removed.
• The Great Darkness has Type 4 Acausality for being "excluded from the ordered universe", but this just refers to how it exists as something that encompasses creation and doesn't exist inside it, which isn't a valid justification for Type 4 Acausality, so this should be removed.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

@Deagonx @Elizio33 @FinePoint @Elizhaa @Eficiente @LordTracer @Emirp sumitpo @LordGriffin1000 @Firestorm808 @DarkDragonMedeus @Maverick_Zero_X @Armorchompy

 

[ProfectusInfinity]

I agree.

 

[Excellence616]

I agree

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

I told them not to give the Monitor Brothers type 4. They did not listen!

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Looks alright.

 

[Deagonx]

Looks good to me

 

[Elizio33]

Sounds good to me, but shouldn't they have at least Type 1 since the Sixth Dimension has been described as a realm "out of time" by Batman: "We're dealing with a realm out of time. Who knows how long he'll be away? It could be months, years, decad--"

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

Sounds good to me, but shouldn't they have at least Type 1 since the Sixth Dimension has been described as a realm "out of time" by Batman: "We're dealing with a realm out of time. Who knows how long he'll be away? It could be months, years, decad--"

How is that evidence that changing their past wouldn't change their futures?

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Type 3 fits them the most but it still has issues.

 

[Eseseso]

Type 3 fits them the most but it still has issues.

Not sure how Type 3 fits here.

OP looks fine, I guess.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Not sure how Type 3 fits here.

OP looks fine, I guess.

I was trying to say Type 3 feels better than the other options but it still doesn't work.

 

[Elizio33]

And Mr. Mxyzptlk, who exists out of time, is not capable of perceiving the events of the Sixth Dimension and the Brother Monitors were apparently unaffected by the changes brought by the crises: Barry... Are you alright? I... Don't know. I can remember echoes of what he's talking about... They do not even remember all they have lost, brother!

I think this still qualify for Acausality (Type 1) since by virtue of existing on a plane higher than Mr. Mxyzptlk, they have resistance to Precognition and Time Manipulation (Reality-Changing Crisis).

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

I think this remains a quality of Acausality (Type 1) since by virtue of existing on a plane higher than Mr. Mxyzptlk, they have resistance to Precognition and Time Manipulation (Reality-Changing Crisis).

Most of them remembered what happened during Final Crisis. Also, Crisis events are really just effect not causes.

 

[Elizio33]

Most of them remembered what happened during Final Crisis. Also, Crisis events are really just effect not causes.

Yeah, I know, the fact is that they weren't necessarily affected by the crises. This should only apply to their sixth dimensional state since it is clear that they become bound by the lower planes once they enter them.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Yeah, I know, the fact is that they weren't necessarily affected by the crises. This should only apply to their sixth dimensional state since it is clear that they become bound by the lower planes once they enter them.

To be clear, I'm not disagreeing with type 1. I'm just trying to get all the ground bases covered. Convincing the people might be tricky depending if they agree with your view of not being affected by Crises events.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

Yeah, I know, the fact is that they weren't necessarily affected by the crises. This should only apply to their sixth dimensional state since it is clear that they become bound by the lower planes once they enter them.

Okay, I'll add that when I apply this.

 

[Elizio33]

Okay, I'll add that when I apply this.

Type 1 should be fine for the Monitor Brothers, type 4 would work as well by virtue of existing above Mr. Mxyzptlk, although they become bound by the lower planes of existence when they enter them, but i would understand why it might be tricky.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Type 1 should be fine for the Monitor Brothers, type 4 would work as well by virtue of existing above Mr. Mxyzptlk, although they become bound by the lower planes of existence when they enter them, but i would understand why it might be tricky.

I though you were arguing that for Type 1?

 

[Elizio33]

I though you were arguing that for Type 1?

Yes. I was just saying that Type 4 is also a possibility via scaling above Mr. Mxyzptlk and the Fifth Dimension, but that could be tricky. Type 1 makes more sense to me.

 

[Eseseso]

Type 1 should be fine for the Monitor Brothers, type 4 would work as well by virtue of existing above Mr. Mxyzptlk, although they become bound by the lower planes of existence when they enter them, but i would understand why it might be tricky.

This seems good, going by the definition of Type 4.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Yes. I was just saying that Type 4 is also a possibility via scaling above Mr. Mxyzptlk and the Fifth Dimension, but that could be tricky. Type 1 makes more sense to me.

If the Monitor Brothers won't have it why would Mxy.

 

[Elizio33]

If the Monitor Brothers won't have it why would Mxy.

From his profile, Mxy has evidence.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

From his profile, Mxy has evidence.

Ah, we’re going the scaling route.

 

[Elizio33]

Not just scaling. To recapitulate:

1. The Monitor Brothers (Sixth Dimension) exists beyond time (Fourth Dimension) and imagination (Fifth Dimension).

2. They weren't affected by the changes brought by the crises.

3. Mr. Mxyzptlk cannot perceive events in the Sixth Dimension.

4. The Sixth Dimension is a realm out of time where lower dimensional beings could not understand or withstand mentally without the intervention of higher beings.

5. The Monitor Brothers become limited by the rules of the material multiverse when they enter it and their power also diminishes significantly.

 

[Eseseso]

The 6th dimension seems very much outside of standard cause and effect, aka Type 4 Acausality, based on the above stuff.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

The 6th dimension seems very much outside of standard cause and effect, aka Type 4 Acausality, based on the above stuff.

The beings in question do not fully scale to it though. So even if the 6th Dimension is Type 4 we don't know what their true state is supposed to be in relation to that, other than not being limited in physical body in the Material World. They very well could still experience the things that they see, their body is the changed state, not their nature.

 

[Elizio33]

The beings in question do not fully scale to it though. So even if the 6th Dimension is Type 4 we don't know what their true state is supposed to be in relation to that, other than not being limited in physical body in the Material World. They very well could still experience the things that they see, their body is the changed state, not their nature.

Well, the World Forger described his cells in the Sixth Dimension to be such that he could not exist on the third dimensional plane of existence and the World Forger along with his brothers can recreate their own cells to enter the lower multiverse, but this reduces them. They should logically scale to their realm and scale above Mr. Mxyzptlk.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Well, the World Forger described his cells in the Sixth Dimension to be such that he could not exist on the third dimensional plane of existence and the World Forger along with his brothers can recreate their own cells to enter the lower multiverse, but this reduces them. They should logically scale to their realm and scale above Mr. Mxyzptlk.

I'm not saying they aren't above the Impa and their realm. I'm just saying the change isn't as big as you think. It's limited not to the degree that should give them things like cause and effect immunity simply being limited in their physicality.

 

[Elizio33]

I'm not saying they aren't above the Impa and their realm. I'm just saying the change isn't as big as you think. It's limited not to the degree that should give them things like cause and effect immunity simply being limited in their physicality.

They still qualify for acausality, whether they are type 1 or 4.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

They still qualify for acausality, whether they are type 1 or 4.

Acausality type 0 seems sufficient. Jokes aside, I think type 1 works because I don't how type 4 works and Mxy needs a revision on his part as well.

 

[Elizio33]

Acausality type 0 seems sufficient. Jokes aside, I think type 1 works because I don't how type 4 works and Mxy needs a revision on his part as well.

Personally, I think another thread should be created to revise the acausality of Mxy and the Monitor Brothers, because it wouldn't make sense for the Monitors Brothers to be Type 1 while Mxy, who scale below, them is type 4.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Personally, I think another thread should be created to revise the acausality of Mxy and the Monitor Brothers, because it wouldn't make sense for the Monitors Brothers to be Type 1 while Mxy, who scale below, them is type 4.

This also goes hand in hand with what I discussed earlier with you. How most beings within the Multiverse from whatever realms do not fully scale to their realm. As such, Mxy to the Fifth Dimension and Monitor Brothers to the Sixth Dimension.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

Personally, I think another thread should be created to revise the acausality of Mxy and the Monitor Brothers, because it wouldn't make sense for the Monitors Brothers to be Type 1 while Mxy, who scale below, them is type 4.

Type 4 acausality is any weirdness of causality whatsoever. You can be stronger than another being who has it without having it yourself.

 

[ProfectusInfinity]

Acausality type 0 seems sufficient. Jokes aside, I think type 1 works because I don't how type 4 works and Mxy needs a revision on his part as well.

Type 4 means you exist under different laws of causality that render you virtually immune to causality manipulation, precognition, and fate manipulation which are bound to the regular system of cause and effect.

The easiest way to attain type 4 acausality is being decoupled from time, for instance:

Archie Silver

Dragon Ball Demons

I think apostles from Dies Irae also had Aca4 under the basis that “they embodied a parallel world with laws constantly at discourse with those of the regular world.”

The key idea is to prove that a character existentially uses a different standard of causality that would at least, render them immune to temporal paradoxes.

I’m neutral on Aca4 for the monitor brothers. The problem is, most of their justifications are merely “they exist in this realm beyond time” rather than statements for them embodying it or having a similar nature/level of existence with it. Elizio brought up this:

The Monitor Brothers become limited by the rules of the material multiverse when they enter it and their power also diminishes significantly.

And while it’s a solid argument, like I said, I feel you’d need evidence that’s more-so “their existence is beyond time” than “where they exist is beyond time.”

 

[Elizio33]

This also goes hand in hand with what I discussed earlier with you. How most beings within the Multiverse from whatever realms do not fully scale to their realm. As such, Mxy to the Fifth Dimension and Monitor Brothers to the Sixth Dimension.

I agree that some beings should not scale to their realms, but others certainly do. Mister Mxyzptlk scale to the Fifth Dimension because imps are beyond length, width, depth, and time and perceives the 3-D world as flat drawings. They also exist outside of time and thus perceive time timelessly and can even physically interact with time. The Monitor Brothers, in their sixth-dimensional states, are beyond time and imagination of most living beings and are considerably bigger than the material multiverse, seeing it as a bubble. Even Darkseid in his true form was considerably larger than a single universe since his fall cast a massive shadow over the multiverse and the New Gods view universe as bubbles.

 

[Elizio33]

Type 4 acausality is any weirdness of causality whatsoever. You can be stronger than another being who has it without having it yourself.

Then type 1 should work better.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

I agree that some beings should not scale to their realms, but others certainly do. Mister Mxyzptlk scale to the Fifth Dimension because imps are beyond length, width, depth, and time and perceives the 3-D world as flat drawings. They also exist outside of time and thus perceive time timelessly and can even physically interact with time. The Monitor Brothers, in their sixth-dimensional states, are beyond time and imagination of most living beings and are considerably bigger than the material multiverse, seeing it as a bubble. Even Darkseid in his true form was considerably larger than a single universe since his fall cast a massive shadow over the multiverse and the New Gods view universe as bubbles.

I'm arguing that they don't fully scale not that they did. This means full description to pinpoint very large statements about a realm wouldn't automatically apply to the residents.

 

[Elizio33]

Like I said, type 4 was nothing more than a possibility but still tricky.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Type 4 means you exist under different laws of causality that render you virtually immune to causality manipulation, precognition, and fate manipulation which are bound to the regular system of cause and effect.

The easiest way to attain type 4 acausality is being decoupled from time, for instance:

Archie Silver

Dragon Ball Demons

I think apostles from Dies Irae also had Aca4 under the basis that “they embodied a parallel world with laws constantly at discourse with those of the regular world.”

The key idea is to prove that a character existentially uses a different standard of causality that would at least, render them immune to temporal paradoxes.

I’m neutral on Aca4 for the monitor brothers. The problem is, most of their justifications are merely “they exist in this realm beyond time” rather than statements for them embodying it or having a similar nature/level of existence with it. Elizio brought up this:

The context isn't I don't know Type 4. It's just me saying I don't see how Type 4 works better than Type 1.