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Gogeta vs Goku
- Thread starter Huesito88
- Start date
- Status
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Isn't Gogeta baseline?
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BoG God Goku is at least ten times baseline.
So I'd vote for him via a substantial difference in AP.
So I'd vote for him via a substantial difference in AP.
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Is this Goku in his first clash against Beerus or after his limits were surpassed?
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Then I think Godku is around five times stronger than baseline universal level if I am reading AKM sama's blog right.
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They should be pretty close in speed actually...
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They'd be equally matched given that Goku being 5x baseline is reliant on the size of the DB universe, which is the same in GT.
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Gogeta is unquantifiably much much higher than 2.45 quadrillion times FTL.
While Goku is unquantifiable higher than 54 quadrillion times FTL but much much slower than 283 quadrillion times faster than light.
While Goku is unquantifiable higher than 54 quadrillion times FTL but much much slower than 283 quadrillion times faster than light.
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One also has to take into account that Gogeta doesn't have qualms about killing straight away while Goku actually wants to enjoy the fight.
Anyway, so far I don't have an answer to this, and since I'm going to collapse on the bed in about one minute...
Anyway, so far I don't have an answer to this, and since I'm going to collapse on the bed in about one minute...
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gonna go Goku. even if its unquantifiable, he is still likely faster. Plus he's stronger. neither have much in the way of hax so....
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I don't think Super Goku is even close 54 quadrillions either givent that that was also a speed feat from Whis who is still unfathomably above him even right now.
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Wait a minute.
Why is Beerus scaled to Whis at his fastest speed when the 3/4's statement came from a slower speed feat?
Why is Beerus scaled to Whis at his fastest speed when the 3/4's statement came from a slower speed feat?
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Casual Whis was 72 quadrillion. Beerus was 3/4 of that at 54 quadrillion.AguilaR101 said:
And unless you want to say that a casual Beerus flying in space put out more energy than when he fought God Goku, then Goku should scale to be above that speed.
Whis at "his absolute fastest calc" was placed at 283 quadrillion, so nobody should be even close to that.
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He isn't being scaled to Whis's fastest speed, only the 72 quadrillion times feat.
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Beerus's profile says he moved at 3/4th the speed of Whis.Kepekley23 said:
And Whis's page says he is 283 quadrillion times faster than light.
The original 72 quadrillion calc is nowhere to be found on either page and so it makes it seem that Beerus moved at 3/4 the 283 quadrillion feat, which he did not.
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Well, that needs to be fixed with a good ol' CRT, doesn't it?
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Indeed, I believe so.Kepekley23 said:
I'm just too lazy to do it.
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I think the 72 quadrillion c feat is actually the current one but before being revised.
And the only time Beerus was shown to have 3/4th the speed of Whis was when they flew to a random planet and only that one time.
And the only time Beerus was shown to have 3/4th the speed of Whis was when they flew to a random planet and only that one time.
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What do you mean by current one?AguilaR101 said:
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@Aguile
The current one is a feat from the Arale episode which was stated to be Whis's top speed.
The old one is a feat from the second episode of DBS.
The current one is a feat from the Arale episode which was stated to be Whis's top speed.
The old one is a feat from the second episode of DBS.
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Personally, I think that Whis fastest speed only being 283 quadrillion c is ludicrous.
Like God Goku was unquantifiably greater than 54 quadrillion c as the Beerus fighting Goku was pushing out way more Ki than when he was casually flying in space.
And then he got stronger, got another transformation, got stronger, added Kaio-ken to his forms, got stronger, increased the level of Kaio-ken, got stronger, got a new transformation, got stronger, got a new transformation, and got even stronger; and all that strength leads to him not being close to a being that is only like 5 times faster then he was when he initially became a god?
Seems pretty wonky to me, but I guess you can't argue with feats, right?
Like God Goku was unquantifiably greater than 54 quadrillion c as the Beerus fighting Goku was pushing out way more Ki than when he was casually flying in space.
And then he got stronger, got another transformation, got stronger, added Kaio-ken to his forms, got stronger, increased the level of Kaio-ken, got stronger, got a new transformation, got stronger, got a new transformation, and got even stronger; and all that strength leads to him not being close to a being that is only like 5 times faster then he was when he initially became a god?
Seems pretty wonky to me, but I guess you can't argue with feats, right?
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Oh boy.
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The current value is from the arale episode yes, but the old 75 quadrillion value most certainly wasn't from ep 2 given that the calculation presumably used the radius of the observable universe which didn't happen in ep 2.Kepekley23 said:
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I'll give this to Goku as well
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Ah yes, Whis' Speed.
Well let's debunk some stuff right now.
Whis' max speed is only 283 Quadrillion C.
Yeaaaaah no.
Let's say for arguments sake Goku scales to Beerus at 54 Quadrillion only. Even though a serious Beerus should logically have more speed than travel speed and Dragon Ball almost always has faster burst speeds, whatever. I'm lowballing hard.
ignoring Super Saiyan Blue, we still have the accepted linear Kaioken Multipliers.
So!
Super Saiyan Blue Kaiokenx20 would be 54 x 20
That would only be about 1080 Quadrillion C.
Y'know, only about 3.81625441696x faster than Whis.
Well let's debunk some stuff right now.
Whis' max speed is only 283 Quadrillion C.
Yeaaaaah no.
Let's say for arguments sake Goku scales to Beerus at 54 Quadrillion only. Even though a serious Beerus should logically have more speed than travel speed and Dragon Ball almost always has faster burst speeds, whatever. I'm lowballing hard.
ignoring Super Saiyan Blue, we still have the accepted linear Kaioken Multipliers.
So!
Super Saiyan Blue Kaiokenx20 would be 54 x 20
That would only be about 1080 Quadrillion C.
Y'know, only about 3.81625441696x faster than Whis.
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You're not debunking anything, quite the opposite you're only proving the multipliers can't be trusted or that it's extremely inconsistent for BoG Goku to be at the level of speed he is currently rated as.Akreious said:
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Are you one of those "All multipliers can't be trusted whatsoever" people? Because we've been using Kaioken Multipliers on this site for Speed and Strength for... a long time now. Because unlike Super Saiyan (Which is minimum 40x Multiplier scaling from Freeza 50% = Goku Kaiokenx20), it has a clear stated multiplier in it's name and is repeatedly stated to multiply linearly both in-canon and outside canon.
Again, Dragon Ball Burst Speed is SIGNIFICANTLY higher than Travel Speed. Whis saying that he's never gone as fast before means nothing as he's visibly not tired whatsoever and also only referring to Travel Speed. Obviously. He travelled from point A to point B.
My example above showed that despite what many people think, 283 Quadrillion C is not Dragon Ball's max speed cap. Especially since, again, Whis is not visibly tired whatsoever during said feat.
Again, Dragon Ball Burst Speed is SIGNIFICANTLY higher than Travel Speed. Whis saying that he's never gone as fast before means nothing as he's visibly not tired whatsoever and also only referring to Travel Speed. Obviously. He travelled from point A to point B.
My example above showed that despite what many people think, 283 Quadrillion C is not Dragon Ball's max speed cap. Especially since, again, Whis is not visibly tired whatsoever during said feat.
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Again, Dragon Ball Burst Speed is SIGNIFICANTLY higher than Travel Speed. Whis saying that he's never gone as fast before means nothing as he's visibly not tired whatsoever and also only referring to Travel Speed. Obviously. He travelled from point A to point B.
Sure, but ever since the the start of super all we've gotten are travel speed feats so that's all we're going to use.
My example above showed that despite what many people think, 283 Quadrillion C is not Dragon Ball's max speed cap. Especially since, again, Whis is not visibly tired whatsoever during said feat.
Not being tired after performing a task =/= having the ability to perform said task faster.
It is the speed cap though, Whis' is literally the fastest character of the main cast barring other angels, and given how he is portrayed to be ridiculously above the likes of Goku we cannot use multipliers to bump former beyond Whis' feats as that creates a massive inconsistency in scaling.
Sure, but ever since the the start of super all we've gotten are travel speed feats so that's all we're going to use.
My example above showed that despite what many people think, 283 Quadrillion C is not Dragon Ball's max speed cap. Especially since, again, Whis is not visibly tired whatsoever during said feat.
Not being tired after performing a task =/= having the ability to perform said task faster.
It is the speed cap though, Whis' is literally the fastest character of the main cast barring other angels, and given how he is portrayed to be ridiculously above the likes of Goku we cannot use multipliers to bump former beyond Whis' feats as that creates a massive inconsistency in scaling.
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"Sure, but ever since the the start of super all we've gotten are travel speed feats so that's all we're going to use."
Which is disingenuous and contradictory given what we've known of Dragon Ball for about a decade now.
"Not being tired after performing a task =/= having the ability to perform said task faster."
... What? Where does this logic stem from? Because if I do an activity that requires sheer bodily ability to do and I do it but still have energy to spare, you can definitely do it faster. If I do a 50m sprint but I sigh once, you're almost completely guaranteed that if I were to race an alternate version of myself that's sweating in a pool of shame after clearing the same amount of distance in the same amount of time, I'd be the faster one.
"It is the speed cap though, Whis' is literally the fastest character of the main cast barring other angels"
It isn't when Whis wasn't straining over said speed whatsoever though? You're literally placing an arbitrary cap on a Character that didn't even say it was their cap; it was just faster than they felt were safe for them to normally go at. Just because I have a car and I drive it at 60 mph doesn't mean I can't drive it at 180 mph.
"and given how he is portrayed to be ridiculously above the likes of Goku we cannot use multipliers to bump former beyond Whis' feats as that creates a massive inconsistency in scaling."
An inconsistency that isn't inconsistent whatsoever since it wasn't a Serious Whis that was actually trying like he would be in serious combat?
Your argument is, Goku being faster than Whis makes no sense because Whis is supposed to be faster than Goku.
Yet the Whis we're comparing is one that wasn't anywhere near 100% nor putting in any large amount of effort into their speed and only went at that speed due to Beerus' ushering of him.
How is there an inconsistency there? It's not like Whis said "100c is my maximum speed" and Goku scales to 3/4 of it. All Whis said was "I've never gone that fast before", meaning he's never tried. He doesn't have a hard cap right now; characters being faster than him is fine since it isn't a hard cap.
Which is disingenuous and contradictory given what we've known of Dragon Ball for about a decade now.
"Not being tired after performing a task =/= having the ability to perform said task faster."
... What? Where does this logic stem from? Because if I do an activity that requires sheer bodily ability to do and I do it but still have energy to spare, you can definitely do it faster. If I do a 50m sprint but I sigh once, you're almost completely guaranteed that if I were to race an alternate version of myself that's sweating in a pool of shame after clearing the same amount of distance in the same amount of time, I'd be the faster one.
"It is the speed cap though, Whis' is literally the fastest character of the main cast barring other angels"
It isn't when Whis wasn't straining over said speed whatsoever though? You're literally placing an arbitrary cap on a Character that didn't even say it was their cap; it was just faster than they felt were safe for them to normally go at. Just because I have a car and I drive it at 60 mph doesn't mean I can't drive it at 180 mph.
"and given how he is portrayed to be ridiculously above the likes of Goku we cannot use multipliers to bump former beyond Whis' feats as that creates a massive inconsistency in scaling."
An inconsistency that isn't inconsistent whatsoever since it wasn't a Serious Whis that was actually trying like he would be in serious combat?
Your argument is, Goku being faster than Whis makes no sense because Whis is supposed to be faster than Goku.
Yet the Whis we're comparing is one that wasn't anywhere near 100% nor putting in any large amount of effort into their speed and only went at that speed due to Beerus' ushering of him.
How is there an inconsistency there? It's not like Whis said "100c is my maximum speed" and Goku scales to 3/4 of it. All Whis said was "I've never gone that fast before", meaning he's never tried. He doesn't have a hard cap right now; characters being faster than him is fine since it isn't a hard cap.
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Which is disingenuous and contradictory given what we've known of Dragon Ball for about a decade now.
In which way exactly? do you have an actual measurable formula that would allow us to extrapolate how fast their reactions are compared to their travel speed ? It'd be even consistent throught the series? and at any rate I doubt you could even find this hypothetical ratio to be consistent even through the original manga.
... What? Where does this logic stem from? Because if I do an activity that requires sheer bodily ability to do and I do it but still have energy to spare, you can definitely do it faster. If I do a 50m sprint but I sigh once, you're almost completely guaranteed that if I were to race an alternate version of myself that's sweating in a pool of shame after clearing the same amount of distance in the same amount of time, I'd be the faster one.
I seriously doubt you'd be able to do it 3x times faster like you're trying to imply here, let alone 60x to thousands of times faster like you were trying to imply by "lowballing" the multipliers.
It isn't when Whis wasn't straining over said speed whatsoever though? You're literally placing an arbitrary cap on a Character that didn't even say it was their cap; it was just faster than they felt were safe for them to normally go at. Just because I have a car and I drive it at 60 mph doesn't mean I can't drive it at 180 mph.
We're not going to assume a character to be much faster than their feats just because you believe they could be faster based on clumsily made real life comparisons.
An inconsistency that isn't inconsistent whatsoever since it wasn't a Serious Whis that was actually trying like he would be in serious combat
Whis has never put any effort when fighting either Goku or vegeta.
Yet the Whis we're comparing is one that wasn't anywhere near 100% nor putting in any large amount of effort into their speed and only went at that speed due to Beerus' ushering of him.
He literally states he has never gone this fast before, ergo there is no concievable way for him to ever have used this level of speed to deal with Goku for him to be on the same realm.
it isn't a hard cap.
For our vsdebating purposes and for the rest of the cast that scales below Whis? it totally is.
In which way exactly? do you have an actual measurable formula that would allow us to extrapolate how fast their reactions are compared to their travel speed ? It'd be even consistent throught the series? and at any rate I doubt you could even find this hypothetical ratio to be consistent even through the original manga.
... What? Where does this logic stem from? Because if I do an activity that requires sheer bodily ability to do and I do it but still have energy to spare, you can definitely do it faster. If I do a 50m sprint but I sigh once, you're almost completely guaranteed that if I were to race an alternate version of myself that's sweating in a pool of shame after clearing the same amount of distance in the same amount of time, I'd be the faster one.
I seriously doubt you'd be able to do it 3x times faster like you're trying to imply here, let alone 60x to thousands of times faster like you were trying to imply by "lowballing" the multipliers.
It isn't when Whis wasn't straining over said speed whatsoever though? You're literally placing an arbitrary cap on a Character that didn't even say it was their cap; it was just faster than they felt were safe for them to normally go at. Just because I have a car and I drive it at 60 mph doesn't mean I can't drive it at 180 mph.
We're not going to assume a character to be much faster than their feats just because you believe they could be faster based on clumsily made real life comparisons.
An inconsistency that isn't inconsistent whatsoever since it wasn't a Serious Whis that was actually trying like he would be in serious combat
Whis has never put any effort when fighting either Goku or vegeta.
Yet the Whis we're comparing is one that wasn't anywhere near 100% nor putting in any large amount of effort into their speed and only went at that speed due to Beerus' ushering of him.
He literally states he has never gone this fast before, ergo there is no concievable way for him to ever have used this level of speed to deal with Goku for him to be on the same realm.
it isn't a hard cap.
For our vsdebating purposes and for the rest of the cast that scales below Whis? it totally is.
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@Akreious and AguilaR101
I think we should stop the derailing. I didn't mean for this topic to get this heated, but I'm putting a stop to it.
If you want to continue this debate, pick one of your message's walls, or maybe mine, and continue the debate there.
Although I am more inclined to agree with Akreious's stance on the matter.
@AKM sama
Are you sure?
I remember it being that episode where Whis goes to a planet in a very distant galaxy, and Beerus catching up to him at 3/4 the speed.
Do you have the calc?
When I try to click on the one form Naruto Forums, the page never loads.
I think we should stop the derailing. I didn't mean for this topic to get this heated, but I'm putting a stop to it.
If you want to continue this debate, pick one of your message's walls, or maybe mine, and continue the debate there.
Although I am more inclined to agree with Akreious's stance on the matter.
@AKM sama
Are you sure?
I remember it being that episode where Whis goes to a planet in a very distant galaxy, and Beerus catching up to him at 3/4 the speed.
Do you have the calc?
When I try to click on the one form Naruto Forums, the page never loads.
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Akreious, if you want to go that route, then SSJ4 Gogeta is quintillions of times FTL with multipliers. Don't.
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