Not So Stellar: Classic Sonic Downgrade

[ShakeResounding]

Introduction
Hello, everybody. You've read the title of the thread, so you know what's going on. I plan to downgrade the Classic Era cast from High 4-C.

So, let's get started.

The Issues
Let's begin with problems that arise as a result of Omegabronic's Power Core/Fake Emerald CRT. That being within Sonic the Fighters, where we see that entering Hyper Mode (a mini-state granted by the Chaos Emeralds) only increases the user's combat speed.

Obviously, this pokes a hole in how we scale the Classic Era to Chaos Emeralds. It's clear that the Classic Crew lack the know-how regarding using the Emeralds' power to amplify AP (other wise they'd do more damage with Hyper Mode activated), which falls in line with Chaos Energy still remaining a UES due to overwhelming consistency for such. So, due to not being able to reliably scale them to the AP value of a sole Chaos Emerald, we'll do the next best thing.

The Changes
One thing that IS consistent is the Death Egg Robot and it's correlation to powering the Death Egg itself. The latter is referred to as a doomsday machine and a planet-destroying battleship. Not only this, but it's referred to as his last resort and ultimate weapon by the time of Sonic 2 as well. This would upscale it from the Death Egg itself.

Meanwhile, we have Sonic defeating the DER in Sonic 2, Sonic Mania (and Mania Plus), Sonic 4 Episode I, and Sonic Generations. Iconically, once the Death Egg Robot is defeated, the Death Egg itself is a direct casualty practically every time.

As a result of Sonic's Earth being larger than ours, the GBE of his Earth is 162.7 Yottatons (5-A). This is what the Classic Era will scale to instead.

Those Affected
Classic Sonic
Classic Metal Sonic
Amy, Tails, Knuckles, & Dr. Eggman's mechas (Classic Era)
The Hooligans (Fang, Bean, Bark)
Hard Boiled Heavies
Any other relevant Egg Mecha, Badnik, etc. that scales fully to the peeps mentioned above.

And for those of you lovelies who missed Tier 5 Base, ya got it back.

Staff Agree: 3 (DarkDragonMedeus, Maverick Zero X, CloverDragon03)

Staff Neutral:

Staff Disagree:

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Looks good to me.

 

[omegabronic]

agree with premise, disagree with reasoning

The Issues
Let's begin with problems that arise as a result of Omegabronic's Power Core/Fake Emerald CRT. That being within Sonic the Fighters, where we see that entering Hyper Mode (a mini-state granted by the Chaos Emeralds) only increases the user's combat speed.

using gameplay exclusively to say that it doesn't amp anything but speed is not really a good argument, by that Logic Super Sonic is = Base Sonic, the argument here would be that they chars need the form to be amped by the emeralds in the first place

Obviously, this pokes a hole in how we scale the Classic Era to Chaos Emeralds. It's clear that the Classic Crew lack the know-how regarding using the Emeralds' power to amplify AP (other wise they'd do more damage with Hyper Mode activated), which falls in line with Chaos Energy still remaining a UES due to overwhelming consistency for such. So, due to not being able to reliably scale them to the AP value of a sole Chaos Emerald, we'll do the next best thing.

another argument regarding Silver Sonic in Sonic 2 8 bit would simply be the lack of statements of it being powered by the emerald in the first place, seen as even the normal users of them need a specific mode to use their power

The Changes
One thing that IS consistent is the Death Egg Robot and it's correlation to powering the Death Egg itself. The latter is referred to as a doomsday machine and a planet-destroying battleship. Not only this, but it's referred to as his last resort and ultimate weapon by the time of Sonic 2 as well. This would upscale it from the Death Egg itself.

Meanwhile, we have Sonic defeating the DER in Sonic 2, Sonic Mania (and Mania Plus), Sonic 4 Episode I, and Sonic Generations. Iconically, once the Death Egg Robot is defeated, the Death Egg itself is a direct casualty practically every time.

As a result of Sonic's Earth being larger than ours, the GBE of his Earth is 162.7 Yottatons (5-A). This is what the Classic Era will scale to instead.

Those Affected
Classic Sonic
Classic Metal Sonic
Amy, Tails, Knuckles, & Dr. Eggman's mechas (Classic Era)
The Hooligans (Fang, Bean, Bark)
Hard Boiled Heavies
Any other relevant Egg Mecha, Badnik, etc. that scales fully to the peeps mentioned above.

And for those of you lovelies who missed Tier 5 Base, ya got it back.

said the above, i agree with downgrading them, but i think that "High 4-C" with Hyper Mode for those who have it is the best, since they would still be amped to an Emerald level when using the mode to power themselves with the Emerald

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Agree with the OP.

 

[ShakeResounding]

agree with premise, disagree with reasoning

Noted.

using gameplay exclusively to say that it doesn't amp anything but speed is not really a good argument, by that Logic Super Sonic is = Base Sonic, the argument here would be that they chars need the form to be amped by the emeralds in the first place

Considering their AP is quite literally unchanged, this is just a fault of the characters' knowledge regarding Chaos Emeralds and their UES. So no, your Base Sonic = Super Sonic analogy doesn't work because. In fact, it actually works against you because at least Super Sonic defeats bosses in less hits throughput the Classic titles. AKA an increase to striking strength that the Base characters are unable to wield.

another argument regarding Silver Sonic in Sonic 2 8 bit would simply be the lack of statements of it being powered by the emerald in the first place, seen as even the normal users of them need a specific mode to use their power

I agree with this, so we'll remove that justification from Silver Sonic's AP.

said the above, i agree with downgrading them, but i think that "High 4-C" with Hyper Mode for those who have it is the best, since they would still be amped to an Emerald level when using the mode to power themselves with the Emerald

I'm neutral on the idea due to characters dropping Rings upon being hit, so technically it doesn't go against this idea. Ask DDM and Mav though.

 

[Theuser789]

I agree with OP. RIP Tier 4 Classic.

 

[TheShape03]

Isn't this enough evidence that Sonic can damage things that are powered by a chaos emerald? In case it's not, I agree.

 

[Eseseso]

Seems ok

 

[McFriesGuy075]

Isn't this enough evidence that Sonic can damage things that are powered by a chaos emerald? In case it's not, I agree.

is sonic pocket adventure canon? it looks like a mix of classic sonic and adventure sonic, i recall it being released 1 year after sonic adventure so it would land on being adventure sonic instead of classic

 

[BlastX]

Noted.

Considering their AP is quite literally unchanged, this is just a fault of the characters' knowledge regarding Chaos Emeralds and their UES. So no, your Base Sonic = Super Sonic analogy doesn't work because. In fact, it actually works against you because at least Super Sonic defeats bosses in less hits throughput the Classic titles. AKA an increase to striking strength that the Base characters are unable to wield.

I agree with this, so we'll remove that justification from Silver Sonic's AP.

I'm neutral on the idea due to characters dropping Rings upon being hit, so technically it doesn't go against this idea. Ask DDM and Mav though.

Actually that's wrong, outside of Sonic 4 EP II Super Sonic doesn't deal more damage to bosses than regular Sonic does, he can beat them much easier but not in less hits.

 

[GlaceonGamez471]

is sonic pocket adventure canon?

No

 

[Ghengiroo115]

is sonic pocket adventure canon? it looks like a mix of classic sonic and adventure sonic, i recall it being released 1 year after sonic adventure so it would land on being adventure sonic instead of classic

I think it’s supposed to be between Classic and Adventure chronologically based on the designs. If it was canon it would probably just warrant its own key placed before Adventure Sonic’s SA key, since the scaling is greater than Classic era characters but lower than Adventure era characters’ Chaos 4 scaling.

 

[TheShape03]

No

Damn, goodbye Classic Sonic High 4-C.

 

[LukeChaosBlobz]

Rip High 4-C Classic gang

 

[omegabronic]

Noted.

Considering their AP is quite literally unchanged, this is just a fault of the characters' knowledge regarding Chaos Emeralds and their UES.

which is why they can't use it without using a form contrary to people later on doing it by just holding it

So no, your Base Sonic = Super Sonic analogy doesn't work because. In fact, it actually works against you because at least Super Sonic defeats bosses in less hits throughput the Classic titles. AKA an increase to striking strength that the Base characters are unable to wield.

He doesn't tho? In gameplay, all that Super Sonic does is be invincible and be faster, he doesn't deal more damage

Using purely gameplay to say that something that, in verse, is stablished to raise power as well(chaos emeralds) doesn't make sense, the lore takes precedence over gameplay

I agree with this, so we'll remove that justification from Silver Sonic's AP.

I'm neutral on the idea due to characters dropping Rings upon being hit, so technically it doesn't go against this idea. Ask DDM and Mav though.

sure

 

[Peptocoptr27]

Chaos Energy still remaining a UES due to overwhelming consistency for such

What's a UES?

 

[GlaceonGamez471]

What's a UES?

Universal Energy System

 

[TyranoDoom30]

Agree with Shake

 

[omegabronic]

Looks good to me.

Agree with the OP.

could you two give opinions about my points here?

agree with premise, disagree with reasoning


using gameplay exclusively to say that it doesn't amp anything but speed is not really a good argument, by that Logic Super Sonic is = Base Sonic, the argument here would be that they chars need the form to be amped by the emeralds in the first place


another argument regarding Silver Sonic in Sonic 2 8 bit would simply be the lack of statements of it being powered by the emerald in the first place, seen as even the normal users of them need a specific mode to use their power


said the above, i agree with downgrading them, but i think that "High 4-C" with Hyper Mode for those who have it is the best, since they would still be amped to an Emerald level when using the mode to power themselves with the Emerald

 

[Peptocoptr27]

I agree with Omega

 

[BlastX]

Not sure if this counts for anything but Espio and Bean have a Hyper Mode exclusive warp move.

 

[y3p_owo]

Agree with OP

 

[ShakeResounding]

which is why they can't use it without using a form contrary to people later on doing it by just holding it

A lack of knowledge regarding the Chaos Emeralds' functions supercedes any event that happens when the cast has more knowledge.

He doesn't tho? In gameplay, all that Super Sonic does is be invincible and be faster, he doesn't deal more damage

My mistake.

Using purely gameplay to say that something that, in verse, is established to raise power as well(chaos emeralds) doesn't make sense, the lore takes precedence over gameplay

You're trying to shill a false binary here. A healthy use of both lore and gameplay is often necessary, disregarding the lack of AP amps simply because they showcase it in the future is erroneous logic.

 

[omegabronic]

A lack of knowledge regarding the Chaos Emeralds' functions supercedes any event that happens when the cast has more knowledge.

the lack of knowledge would be in how to use their power freely, as in without a form, rather than not being able to use it at all

My mistake.

You're trying to shill a false binary here. A healthy use of both lore and gameplay is often necessary, disregarding the lack of AP amps simply because they showcase it in the future is erroneous logic.

if you agreed with the Super Sonic example, then explain to me the difference between that and Hyper Mode

 

[CloverDragon03]

I agree with the OP

 

[Theuser789]

Super Sonic does deal more damage than Base Sonic in Fighters btw

 

[Omnificence]

RIP High 4-C Classic Sonic

Anyways, agree.

 

[JRockfish1]

So, has this CRT passed?

 

[Theuser789]

Not yet.

 

[ShakeResounding]

the lack of knowledge would be in how to use their power freely, as in without a form, rather than not being able to use it at all

I think that's still the same issue here tbh. And they can use it, Hyper Mode shows as much, it just isn't usable for straight-up AP increases to the degree you're claiming.

if you agreed with the Super Sonic example, then explain to me the difference between that and Hyper Mode

Super Forms have been consistently portrayed as increasing strength due to implications in the lore. Hyper Mode doesn't have that luxury, mostly due to it being a thing for one title only.

 

[Peptocoptr27]

I agree with Shake now

 

[ShakeResounding]

Bump.

 

[ShakeResounding]

I'll have to edit the Powerscaling Blog to adjust alongside it. 2 admins should be fine, but I'd prefer 3 so Imma wait longer.