Should Jupiter/Zeus be 4-A?

[FanofRPGs]

In one myth Orion was killed by a Scorpion and he turned both into constellations. That is a 4-A feat, I heard that he also made many of the other constellations.

 

[Antvasima]

It depends. By our way of understanding the universe it would be 4-A, but the Greeks did not consider the universe to be anywhere near as large if I remember correctly.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

This is for the Mythology pages, right Fanon? (Sorry if that's a dumb question)/

 

[FanofRPGs]

It depends. By our way of understanding the universe it would be 4-A, but the Greeks did not consider the universe to be anywhere near as large if I remember correctly.

Maybe for tierings for the Greek/Roman gods, we could put the tier going by their perspective and the tier going by our view of science?

 

[Antvasima]

I am fairly sure that he means mythological Zeus, not the Marvel or Disney versions.

 

[FanofRPGs]

This is for the Mythology pages, right Fanon? (Sorry if that's a dumb question)/

Yes

http://www.theoi.com/Cat_Astraioi.html

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

Yeah, okay. @Antvasima

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Capricorn, Aquarius, Gemini, Taurus, Cygnus, Pegasus, Ursa Major, Canis Major, Canis Minor, Sagitta

^

Constellations that Zeus made.

 

[Antvasima]

I remember that Spiralmaster once looked up how large the Greeks thought the universe was and ended up with comparatively very small numbers, which lead to the scaling of the Typho and Zeus (Myth) pages. If somebody could do this again we would have more to go by.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

If only Spiralmaster could come by again on this, then we could get something on this. If anything, i have no issues with this should this be accepted however....

 

[Antvasima]

Well, he previously did scale the Zeus and Typhon pages based on the latter's size, I think.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Well, he previously did scale the Zeus and Typhon pages based on the latter's size, I think.

That is correct, due to Typhon being larger than our sun.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

Yeah, but i'm asking if we can get him to do something like this one just like he did with Zeus and Tyhpon...

 

[Antvasima]

You can ask him if you wish, but I don't think that the Greeks considered the stars to be of anywhere near comparative size to our Sun.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

You can ask him if you wish, but I don't think that the Greeks considered the stars to be of anywhere near comparative size to our Sun.

I have asked him.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. He is not here very often nowadays though.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

Okay. He is not here very often nowadays though.

Really? Last time he showed on the 13th. But i guess the only thing we can do is wait on this.

 

[Antvasima]

Yup.

 

[SpiralMaster]

Well, it's possible that Zeus is higher. Various different beliefs existed back then on the nature of the universe, some surprisingly similar to our own. What else is there to know about these constellations?

This also reminds me - Erebus & Chaos (at least) are infinite in size, so should be 2-C.

https://books.google.com.au/books?i...epage&q=chaos ancient greece infinite&f=false

"It relates that in the beginning there arose Chaos, a formless mass of infinite extent. Out of Chaos, in turn, came the first five deities: Gaia (Earth), Tartarus (a dark pit in the detphs of hell), Eros (Love), Nix (Night), and Erebus (the darkness of Tartarus)."

http://www.theoi.com/Protogenos/Khaos.html

"CHAOS (Chaos), the vacant and infinite space which existed according to the ancient cosmogonies previous to the creation of the world (Hes. Theog. 116), and out of which the gods, men, and all things arose."

"At the beginning there was only Khaos (Air), Nyx (Night), dark Erebos (Darkness), and deep Tartaros (Hell's Pit). Ge (Earth), Aer (Air) and Ouranos (Heaven) had no existence. Firstly, black-winged Nyx (Night) laid a germless egg in the bosom of the infinite deeps of Erebos (Darkness), and from this, after the revolution of long ages, sprang the graceful Eros (Desire) with his glittering golden wings, swift as the whirlwinds of the tempest. He mated [or fertilised] in deep Tartaros (Hell-Pit) with dark Khaos (Air), winged like himself, and thus hatched forth our race [the birds], which was the first to see the light."

Should have more in the future.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Well, it's possible that Zeus is higher. Various different beliefs existed back then on the nature of the universe, some surprisingly similar to our own. What else is there to know about these constellations?
This also reminds me - Erebus & Chaos (at least) are infinite in size, so should be 2-C.

https://books.google.com.au/books?i...epage&q=chaos ancient greece infinite&f=false

"It relates that in the beginning there arose Chaos, a formless mass of infinite extent. Out of Chaos, in turn, came the first five deities: Gaia (Earth), Tartarus (a dark pit in the detphs of hell), Eros (Love), Nix (Night), and Erebus (the darkness of Tartarus)."

http://www.theoi.com/Protogenos/Khaos.html

"CHAOS (Chaos), the vacant and infinite space which existed according to the ancient cosmogonies previous to the creation of the world (Hes. Theog. 116), and out of which the gods, men, and all things arose."

"At the beginning there was only Khaos (Air), Nyx (Night), dark Erebos (Darkness), and deep Tartaros (Hell's Pit). Ge (Earth), Aer (Air) and Ouranos (Heaven) had no existence. Firstly, black-winged Nyx (Night) laid a germless egg in the bosom of the infinite deeps of Erebos (Darkness), and from this, after the revolution of long ages, sprang the graceful Eros (Desire) with his glittering golden wings, swift as the whirlwinds of the tempest. He mated [or fertilised] in deep Tartaros (Hell-Pit) with dark Khaos (Air), winged like himself, and thus hatched forth our race [the birds], which was the first to see the light."

Should have more in the future.

It's worth noting that some versions of this story put Chronos (Time) and Ananke (Necessity) to have created Chaos, so they would be above infinity.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

For instance, taken from Theoi.com:

"This Khronos (Unaging Time), of immortal resource, begot Aither (Light) and great Khaos, vast this way and that, no limit below it, no base, no place to settle. Then great Khronos fashioned from (or in) divine Aither a bright white egg [from which Phanes was born]."

"For this is the great Khronos (Unaging Time) that we found in it [the Rhapsodies], the father of Aither and Khaos. Indeed, in this theology too [the Hieronyman], this Khronos (Time), the serpent has offspring, three in number: moist Aither (Light) (I quote), unbounded Khaos (Air), and as a third, misty Erebos (Darkness) . . ."

 

[Antvasima]

Well being literally infinite in 3-dimensional size only qualifies a character for the High 3-A ranking.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

In my opinion:

Chaos = 3-A or High 3-A

Chronos / Ananke = High 3-A or Low 2-C if we take the Orphic version, far lower if we go by the version where they too came from Chaos.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I am not informed about the subject and too tired to focus right now.

 

[LordXcano]

In my opinion:
Chaos = 3-A or High 3-A

Chronos / Ananke = High 3-A or Low 2-C if we take the Orphic version, far lower if we go by the version where they too came from Chaos.

I think that the most common version is that Chaos came first, since it was an endless void

At least, everything I've read starts with Chaos then things come from that

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

In my opinion:
Chaos = 3-A or High 3-A

Chronos / Ananke = High 3-A or Low 2-C if we take the Orphic version, far lower if we go by the version where they too came from Chaos.

I think that the most common version is that Chaos came first, since it was an endless void
At least, everything I've read starts with Chaos then things come from that

Well, Orphism is pretty different from the Hellenic religion. Look at Zeus becoming one with the universe at the end.

 

[LordXcano]

@Matthew Then I guess we should choose between Orphism or Hellenic

Maybe whichever version came first because that'd be the source material?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

@Matthew Then I guess we should choose between Orphism or Hellenic
Maybe whichever version came first because that'd be the source material?

Well, we have Hellenic Zeus and Orphic Zeus as two tiers. We could do the same for Chaos and Chronos.

 

[SpiralMaster]

Isn't Platos Cave an analagy for the Greek Gods being higher dimensional?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

^... No?

 

[LordXcano]

I don't think the Greeks had the concept of higher dimensions

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

They never did.

 

[SpiralMaster]

Pretty sure that concepts like euclidean space were thought of back in ancient Greece.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euclidean_space

Platos Cave seems something similar, the analagy being that we can't see true reality, just as people who see 2D shadows in a cave think 2D is reality.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

Hmm.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I'll go with feats from the poems and books of the times than a philosophy by a guy who's way after the hellenic / homeric period.

 

[Antvasima]

I agree with Matthew on that point.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

Same here.

 

[Dreaming_Serpent]

Considering he needed help to defeat Zeus, Typhon should be around his level, if not higher slightly.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Here's some feats I found:

http://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?b=26616 Even with extreme lowballing, Typhon would be Solar System Level through size alone

http://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?b=26618 Typhon was capable of crushing constellations with his hands. If we go by Modern Standards of Power, that would make At least High 4-A, but even then, it's still impressive with the limitations of the time:

Assuming that the stars were 73 Million Kilometers away, than their size should likely be that many times greater, and the distance between them at the sky, a few centimeters for the naked eye, would also be millions of times higher.

Anyway, Zeus beat him without outside help, that shows you a lot.

Also this quote from Zeus himself:

"Come, try me, immortals, so all of you can learn. Hang a great golden cable down from the heavens, lay hold of it, all you gods, all goddesses too: you can never drag me down from sky to earth, not Zeus, the highest, mightiest king of kings, not even if you worked yourselves to death. But whenever I'd set my mind to drag you up, in deadly earnest, I'd hoist you all with ease, you and the earth, you and the sea, all together, then loop that golden cable round a horn of Olympus, bind it fast and leave the whole world dangling in mid-air— That is how far I tower over the gods, I tower over men." — Zeus, The Iliad

Zeus would likely be 3-C to be so superior to all the other Olympians together, and to have defeated Typhon who effortlesly crushed Constellations. This is also consistent, as Gods like Apollo, Artemis, Poseidon, Athena and others all created Constellations too (Not as many as Zeus, but at least 1 each) which would be At Least Low 4-A in power

http://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?b=31082 Many Primordials were viewed as Infinite Forces, and Hades's underworld was another plane of existence, outside the universe.

Also something to note: According to Orphism, Chronos and Ananke created the Cosmic Egg, that held within it all the infinite matter of the universe. Meaning that their power likely surpasses that of 3D infinity

http://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?b=25242 Orphic Zeus absorbed the whole of existence, an immense feat. Why?

http://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?b=25242 Ancient Greeks believed in a Multiverse. So if everything became one with Zeus, he was 2-A

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

Nice work, Matthew. And happy holidays to you too,