Tensei Shitara Slime Datta Ken Discussion Thread 20

[Mizuki67]

"natural death," meaning death via aging. The context suggests this. They were just talking about lifeforms not really aging.

Nothing there suggests Type 5. And again, there were multiple statements that showcased they are able to "die."

May i?
Yep, everyone can die, even High 1-A characters can die, saying they can die dont really do anything here, the question is, how hard is it for them to die?
They can't age, they can't be diseased, they are resistance to SEI, unaffected by all kinds of damages, regen from that damage, posses people, escape people, etc, the overcomed death means they literally can't be killed, even if you try, however its true they can be killed, but only if you get their core destroyed, the core is information and exist conceptually and blah blah blah, you get my point by now right?
Thats the reason for their several immortality.

This argument doesn't work because both Rimuru and Orc Disaster Geld possess significant fire and heat resistances. So the fire was not even affecting them to that extent in the first place.

For you to argue for High regeneration you'd need to showcase that they are able to regenerate from molecules.

Also, trying to use Quora for an argument is pretty bad. It doesn't really matter here since there are issues in the first place but try and get better sources if you can.

I am not sure myself as rimuru can even get low godly regen from ultra speed regeneration as high is lowball, but this is a discussion for another time, its night afterall, we wouldn't want to waste it trying to find scans (the novel of slime is long asf)

 

[Phoenks]

Yep, everyone can die, even High 1-A characters can die, saying they can die dont really do anything here, the question is, how hard is it for them to die?
They can't age, they can't be diseased, they are resistance to SEI, unaffected by all kinds of damages, regen from that damage, posses people, escape people, etc, the overcomed death means they literally can't be killed, even if you try, however its true they can be killed, but only if you get their core destroyed, the core is information and exist conceptually and blah blah blah, you get my point by now right?
Thats the reason for their several immortality.

None of this covers type 5.

Type 5 would be like existing outside of "Death" as a concept, and thus being unable to "die" because "death" simply doesn't apply to you. Typically people get it from states of transcending life/death and such.

Just being hard to kill via powerful regen and other immortalities doesn't automatically give you Type 5.

Btw for the Type 1 conceptual manipulation, I noticed it comes from Attributes which govern world principals but doesn't that only satisfy Type 2?

2. Dependent Concepts: Such concepts are abstract and govern all reality within their area of influence.

I feel like only the Light, Dark, and Time attributes would count since that's where everything seems stems from, including the other attributes. And they seem to actually be unbound from reality.

Tensei Slime is a pretty big verse it seems.

 

[Eikichi_Sensei]

Uhm? It was never said and I don't think it is ever said explicitly in the novel that the other spirits or attributes come from Time, Light or Darkness in addition to the Primordial Demons and Primordial Angels that existed before the creation of heaven and earth.

Also, I think the scan that Astral provided covers the reality independent thing for type 1...

 

[CodeCCLL]

My main concern whether or not these spiritual and information aspects were entirely metaphysical. Cause from the descriptions they seem more like pseudo-physical quantum stuff

I do not think that anyone who understands the difference between the terms Information and Information Particle can have any doubt about the metaphysical aspect of information, and regarding the soul, the fact that the soul particles called Spritrons are described as maqro quantum particle does not mean that they are not metaphysical.

Spiritrons are the particles that make up all forms of spiritual matter, lacking any sort of attribute and filling a position similar to that of the neutron. As a type of spiritual matter, spiritrons are normally intangible and invisible to the naked eye, though it possible for them to materialize into a solid state. The fact that Spiritual Lifeforms can leave their physical bodies behind but still have a spiritual body, the verse's description of physical death and the nature of spiritual matter already tell us that these are metaphysical.

 

[Mizuki67]

None of this covers type 5.

Type 5 would be like existing outside of "Death" as a concept, and thus being unable to "die" because "death" simply doesn't apply to you. Typically people get it from states of transcending life/death and such.

Just being hard to kill via powerful regen and other immortalities doesn't automatically give you Type 5.

Btw for the Type 1 conceptual manipulation, I noticed it comes from Attributes which govern world principals but doesn't that only satisfy Type 2?

2. Dependent Concepts: Such concepts are abstract and govern all reality within their area of influence.

I feel like only the Light, Dark, and Time attributes would count since that's where everything seems stems from, including the other attributes. And they seem to actually be unbound from reality.

Tensei Slime is a pretty big verse it seems.

Although correct attributes birthed all other concepts, as far as i remember
Like water gave birth to deceleration and the rest
Then light and darkness gave birth to duality
And even those things they gave birth to was said to be the source of the world, so its even better

 

[Mizuki67]

Well, we appreciate everyone concern, someone made hell of hax that doesn't follow verse terminologies, so we would also arrange that too, Thank you for pointing out your troubles

 

[CodeCCLL]

Btw for the Type 1 conceptual manipulation, I noticed it comes from Attributes which govern world principals but doesn't that only satisfy Type 2?

Spiritual Lifeforms that embody the qualities themselves can still exist by preserving their conceptual self (core/essence) in a case where all the objects with which the concepts/laws they came into being in the first place are related are destroyed (the end of space-time), therefore manipulating the attributes themselves must be a type 1 conceptual manipulation, therefore magic itself can also manipulate the attributes that govern the fundamental principles of the World.

This is also supported in the passive conceptual manipulation section listed on the Spiritual Lifeforms page, characters can use magic to interact with Spiritual Lifeforms, and by interacting with Spiritual Lifeforms you can influence the concepts/laws they embody. I previously thought that the hierarchy of concepts did not matter in terms of interaction (not manipulation), but in a Q&A on this subject, Everything12 said that a character that can only interact with type 2 or 3 concepts cannot interact with type 1 concepts. I guess this supports the nature (law manipulation based type 1 conceptual manipulation) of magic.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

In your same scan it says that Benimaru couldn't create something like Rimuru so you chose a bad example...

that is regarding size, not temperature.... and we literally see Benimaru spamming it during Orc lord arc.
and here is what I found regarding its size and temperature :

If I decrease the volume of a certain container containing a gas; the KE of the particles will increase and therefore the temperature should increase. But according to Charles's law both of these are directly proportional.

tho Idk if this is the correct theory to apply here, but I used this since pressure wasn't mentioned to increase or decrease in the scan

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Photons are still considered Macro-Quantum. Being significantly smaller than that would be quantum level. I never argued with that.

My main concern whether or not these spiritual and information aspects were entirely metaphysical. Cause from the descriptions they seem more like pseudo-physical quantum stuff.

Information is what makes up the spirit and mind, which is the astral and spiritual body, which are not physical, and Information Particles make up the core, something deeper than even the Soul, even Skills are made of information, and Skills themselves are part of the natural Laws of the World

Also, I must clarify, but "Physical" in Tensura does not strictly refer to only actual physical stuff, even intangible things like Magicule-made bodies are considered physical

IT's fine though, I don't really have much else to say on this for now. It probably works

alright

Upon looking through other pages this is probably fine.

ok

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Btw for the Type 1 conceptual manipulation, I noticed it comes from Attributes which govern world principals but doesn't that only satisfy Type 2?

the Great Spirits existed far before the World itself

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

"natural death," meaning death via aging. The context suggests this. They were just talking about lifeforms not really aging.

Nothing there suggests Type 5. And again, there were multiple statements that showcased they are able to "die."

5: Deathless Immortality: Characters who exist unbound by conventional life or death, or do not exist at all, and thus cannot be traditionally killed. Typically, abilities such as Existence Erasure are needed to destroy them.

The "Die" here is when their their energy is depleted or their core is destroyed, and in both cases, if their energy is lost, they disappear/fade away, they cease to exist, their existence is erased, and return to nonexistence, and core destruction is basically their conceptual death

 

[CodeCCLL]

the Great Spirits existed far before the World itself

This counts as one point.

The "Die" here is when their their energy is depleted or their core is destroyed, and in both cases, if their energy is lost, they disappear/fade away, they cease to exist, their existence is erased, and return to nonexistence, and core destruction is basically their conceptual death

This means Spiritual Lifeforms can still be affected by conceptual death manipulation, but this is consistent because we have Primordial Demons like Diablo and Carrera who are immune to the concept of death, Primordial Demons already have immortality beyond Spiritual Lifeforms.

• Immortality (Type 5; Primordial Demons are wholly exempt from the concept of death[9])

 

[Mizuki67]

That Time I got Reincarnated as a slime revision

we can clearly see how packed the profiles of light novel characters are depsite there's an existing platform to explain certain general aspects of the series, so just to make it easier to read i will love to rephrase lots of things On people's profiles there's this Magic, Law Manipulation...

vsbattles.com

 

[Mizuki67]

i want to create a vsmatch between
Our strongest character vs this entire verse, who wins?
2nd strongest 2-A in history or of today?

 

[Mizuki67]

What Veldanava have	what it can do
His Cosmic awareness	can view the result of anything in a 2-A range, within this 2-A, there's also another 2-A voice in the cosmology so, that's basically 2 multiverse level+ shinenegan
his Nonexistent Physiology	there's already the 2 Nonexistent (type 2) worlds in the slime verse so being more nonexistent or seeing those two as fleeting dreams prove how nonexistent bro is, untop of that things like plot manipulation, information manipulation, conceptual manipulation, nonduality negation, etc will have 0 effect on him
His Large size	everything is merely his consciousness so..
his Conceptual Manipulation	his conceptual manipulation are in about 7 layers, but canonically only 6, also his abstract existence as well, pretty scary
his resistances	ultimate skill resist almost all things, he also resist all ultimate skills, then go as far as to resist turn null effects as God Spirit of time>>>Turn null so....

 

[Eikichi_Sensei]

So far I've seen most of the pages and I think the only thing it has to at least interact with Veldanava is this https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/The_Crystals_(Final_Fantasy) (the only page I see has CM1) but I could be wrong.

Also, what rank is the type 9 immortality of this verse?

 

[Eikichi_Sensei]

I also didn't find pages resistant to CM1 ☠

 

[Mizuki67]

So far I've seen most of the pages and I think the only thing it has to at least interact with Veldanava is this https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/The_Crystals_(Final_Fantasy) (the only page I see has CM1) but I could be wrong.

Also, what rank is the type 9 immortality of this verse?

There's also this

Unseen Chaos Physiology (Final Fantasy)

Chaos/Unseen Chaos (カオス? or 混沌, Kaosu) is a reoccurring storyline element in the "Fabula Nova Crystallis" mythos. This substance originates from a place known as The Unseen Realm, where there is no concept of Space-Time and Form, perfect chaos. Chaos is also omnipresent across various dimensions...

vsbattles.fandom.com

But it isn't much of a threat either

 

[Eikichi_Sensei]

How does Veldanava/God have TD 1?

Also, how does Veldanava/God interact with ND 2 or Non-existent Physiology type 3?

 

[CodeCCLL]

I strongly reiterate that you should avoid making a match with High/God tiers for now. If you really want to make a good match, throw Hinata and Yuuki's first keys across the God tiers of popular verses.

 

[Mizuki67]

How does Veldanava/God have TD 1?

Because spirit of time have nonduality clearly

Also, how does Veldanava/God interact with ND 2 or Non-existent Physiology type 3?

Nonduality is interactable

Characters with regular nonduality exist outside and independently of the logical systems that they're nondual regarding without transcending them on any level. Though this power renders them immune to effects intermediated through the dualities in question, characters with certain forms of Causality Manipulation, Conceptual Manipulation, Information Manipulation, Law Manipulation, or Mathematics Manipulation could potentially bestow these dualities on them, which would remove their nondual nature and render them vulnerable to attacks governed by the dualities

Nep3 is another fancy way to describe nep1 lol, and he have passive nep 1 erasure

 

[Mizuki67]

I strongly reiterate that you should avoid making a match with High/God tiers for now. If you really want to make a good match, throw Hinata and Yuuki's first keys across the God tiers of popular verses.

I am just thinking, but its true, until we get all misconceptions cleared or poi ted at. Then we should avoid creating a distopia, which character can we throw in to challenge yuuki or co

 

[Mizuki67]

also turn null abilities and ramiris abilities can be added to Velda profile, I'll just add it to my CRT that you @CodeCCLL should give your opinion on
CRT link

That Time I got Reincarnated as a slime revision

we can clearly see how packed the profiles of light novel characters are depsite there's an existing platform to explain certain general aspects of the series, so just to make it easier to read i will love to rephrase lots of things On people's profiles there's this Magic, Law Manipulation...

vsbattles.com

 

[CodeCCLL]

which character can we throw in to challenge yuuki or co

Zeref Dragneel

Zeref Dragneel was considered to be the strongest, most evil Mage of all time, who possesses extremely dangerous, and powerful Magic know as the Black Arts. Around 400 years ago, he was cursed by the God Ankhseram with the Curse of Contradiction. After this, Zeref wished to die and created the...

vsbattles.fandom.com

We can start with Fairy Heart Zeref and Hinata. Hinata can kill Zeref and Zeref can kill Hinata in the same way. However, since Hinata lacks range, you should start the fight in Hinata's favor from a distance where Hinata can easily close the distance between Zeref and the speed should be equalized. I think this is a thread worth discussing.

 

[CodeCCLL]

Note: I am not responsible for any verse wars that may break out, Zeref supporters can be very aggressive, deal with them according to the rules.

 

[Mizuki67]

Note: I am not responsible for any verse wars that may break out, Zeref supporters can be very aggressive, deal with them according to the rules.

No issue, thanks for the advice

 

[CodeCCLL]

No issue, thanks for the advice

Also, make this match after replacing Hinata's "Non-Real, Fictional" nonsense in CM 1 justification with "imaginary" .

 

[Mizuki67]

Also, make this match after replacing Hinata's "Non-Real, Fictional" nonsense in CM 1 justification with "imaginary" .

Don't know why astral chose "Fictional" and not imaginary lmao, I'll change it then

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Don't know why astral chose "Fictional" and not imaginary lmao, I'll change it then

I kinda copied it from my previous sandbox which I prepared for the thread, and forgot to edit the fictional part since I had already done in the thread but not in my sandbox, sorry bout that

 

[Mizuki67]

I kinda copied it from my previous sandbox which I prepared for the thread, and forgot to edit the fictional part since I had already done in the thread but not in my sandbox, sorry bout that

Can you change it, then
On all profiles, and its fine, i also have wording errors too

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Can you change it, then
On all profiles, and its fine, i also have wording errors too

sure, will do it when am free

 

[Digital_Franz]

I have wanted to create a CRT for WN Rimuru for a long time and since I am currently free I want to get started. So I need you to enlighten me.
I wonder if ruling over time and space (universe with a higher temporal dimension) gives Low Complex Multiversal level AP and if being able to move there also gives Immeasurable speed

 

[Mizuki67]

I have wanted to create a CRT for WN Rimuru for a long time and since I am currently free I want to get started. So I need you to enlighten me.
I wonder if ruling over time and space (universe with a higher temporal dimension) gives Low Complex Multiversal level AP and if being able to move there also gives Immeasurable speed

We have tried all things
Infact there were million times better arguments than this, you won't get yourself anywhere with that statement

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

I have wanted to create a CRT for WN Rimuru for a long time and since I am currently free I want to get started. So I need you to enlighten me.
I wonder if ruling over time and space (universe with a higher temporal dimension) gives Low Complex Multiversal level AP and if being able to move there also gives Immeasurable speed

if an actual higher temporal dimension is involved, and by "ruling" it means the character can effect that higher temporal dimension as a whole, than yes

although, if I had to guess, are you gonna try the "he was sent to EOST where the space-time continuum was destroyed yet he could still travel in time and "time still passed" meaning there's a higher temporal dimension involved"? Cuz I was thinking of that for around a month now

 

[Digital_Franz]

if an actual higher temporal dimension is involved, and by "ruling" it means the character can effect that higher temporal dimension as a whole, than yes

although, if I had to guess, are you gonna try the "he was sent to EOST where the space-time continuum was destroyed yet he could still travel in time and "time still passed" meaning there's a higher temporal dimension involved"? Cuz I was thinking of that for around a month now

Yes exactly. I read what DB supporters used to prove the existence of a higher temporal dimension and in our case it even verifies the orthogonality condition

 

[Digital_Franz]

We have tried all things
Infact there were million times better arguments than this, you won't get yourself anywhere with that statement

There have not yet been arguments like the ones I want to make. It's usually about what DB supporters used

 

[Mizuki67]

There have not yet been arguments like the ones I want to make. It's usually about what DB supporters used

I told you man, its not going to work
Read all past pages of this thread from page 68 to 78

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Yes exactly. I read what DB supporters used to prove the existence of a higher temporal dimension and in our case it even verifies the orthogonality condition

nice, glad to see there's someone else who has the same thoughts as me
can we talk this on cord? my ID is linked here, so send me a req if you're free

 

[Digital_Franz]

nice, glad to see there's someone else who has the same thoughts as me
can we talk this on cord? my ID is linked here, so send me a req if you're free

OK I will be sure to write to you when I can

 

[Digital_Franz]

I told you man, its not going to work
Read all past pages of this thread from page 68 to 78

Pages 68-78 talk about 2022 topics and this argument for the higher time dimension was not yet valid in wiki standards. What others used before was probably something else. A few months ago I was speaking with Jozay and the argument I want to use for the higher temporal dimension had not been mentioned to his knowledge