The Great Odyssean Quest to Downgrade God of War ⌈Part 3⌋

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Let's kick things up a notch!
(ie; I'm doing slightly more abilities this time around lol)

Resistance to Memory Manipulation & Mind Manipulation [Kratos, Demigod Key]

At the end of the first God of War, Kratos attempts to free himself from the nightmares that plague his mind by killing himself with the intent to erase his memories in the river Lethe. His profile says he resisted this (or that he should resist it, but who cares), which is made evident by the fact that he retains his memories after Athena raises him from the body of water he jumped into. The obvious problem is that Kratos never entered the Lethe. The novel specifies that he fell into the Aegean sea (presumably, he would’ve killed himself, and then erase his memories in the Lethe after he arrived in the Underworld).

There is the argument that the Lethe is a part of the river Styx, and Kratos is shown to resist the Styx's negative effects with the soul of Hades. The problem with that is that the Lethe is merely a subsection of the Styx, and we have no way to confirm if Kratos actually entered that specific part of it. It'd be like saying someone who goes to Ukraine must logically resist radiation manipulation, because Chernobyl is a part of Ukraine.

Mind BFR/Resistance to Mind BFR [Persephone & Kratos, Demigod Key]

This is from how Persephone can supposedly banish Kratos’ mind to another world. Looking at the in-game context though… She tells Kratos to leave the world behind and be with his wife. I believe most people would view this as something akin to a daydream or hallucination, where Kratos “leaves behind this world” (in a metaphorical sense) and enters a better world found within his imagination. I do not think many people would assume that this involves Persephone banishing Kratos’ consciousness to an alternate reality. All the language used in regards to leaving this world behind is equally applicable when it comes to experiencing some kind of vision, hallucination, or other mental influence that makes it appear as though you are no longer a part of the world (for example, a statement such as this could apply if one were high on some sort of hallucinogenic drug).

If this were truly BFR, then it would imply the existence of an alternate dimension where Kratos’ wife never died, and this is something that is never brought up again even though Persephone can apparently just send people there at will. That seems like a far more extreme conclusion to come to than “Persephone made Kratos see his dead wife to put him at ease so he’d let his guard down”.

Resistance to Status Effect Inducement [Kratos, God Key]

This stems from Kratos “resisting” Helios’ light. Which he does not actually do. He is explicitly pushed back and stunned by it, and can only walk forward if he blocks out the light with his hands (if he ever lowers his hands, he is immediately pushed back and stunned again).

Body Puppetry & Death Manipulation [Sirens]

Sirens are assumed to be able to control one's body physically due to this scan. For further context, sirens are able to induce emotions, particularly lust, in those who hear their song. What is interpreted as them puppeteering Kratos' body directly is moreso him acting on his emotions, being driven by his lust to seek out the sirens and presumably have sex with them. This is a common consequence of manipulating one's emotions, as an individual's actions are of course governed by their state of mind; Making someone depressed and causing them to commit suicide, making someone angry and causing them to physically lash out at an ally, or making someone calm and causing them to stop fighting and drop their weapons are all possible examples of empathic manipulation "manipulating" one's physical body, though this is not body puppetry and is, again, merely how the human mind works.

There is, however, the argument that the author specified that Kratos' body was being affected, so it cannot merely be empathic manipulation. However, describing one's body as acting on its own is a common way of depicting intense feelings of lust and desire in a character, and isn't even incongruent with real life. You can see this depicted in a substantial amount of written erotica, particularly fanfiction (though I will avoid quoting any here for obvious reasons; just know that I am well versed on this matter), and the author is likely aware of this and merely wrote the scene in this way to depict how ravenously horny Kratos is (the phrase "wanting them as he had never wanted another before" makes this clear).

Death manipulation is even more straightforward. The source shows sirens screeching at such a precise pitch that they made people's heads explode. This is explicitly a form of explosion manipulation, yet it is erroneously listed as death manipulation at the same time. They do not kill through some ability to just make things die without explanation; The explanation is that they make people's heads explode, which kills them (as things tend to die without their heads [citation needed]). I have read through the various manuals, guidebooks, and novelizations that exist, and none provide support for death hax beyond the instance of sirens blowing people up. This is a simple matter of a mislabeled ability.

Those who are accepted as resisting the effects of sirens (Kratos and Zeus) would lose resistance to these abilities, or at least have the justifications altered so that any references to sirens are removed. Death manipulation would be replaced with explosion manipulation, where applicable.

Agree: Deagonx, Maverick_Zero_X, AbaddonTheDisappointment, Darkgrath
Disagree:
Neutral:

 

[chosen]

Wouldn't explodeze head be sound Manipulation related stuff? Sounds strong enough can do same stuff https://science.howstuffworks.com/can-sound-wave-kill.htm just requires to be this potent

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Wouldn't explodeze head be sound Manipulation related stuff? Sounds strong enough can do same stuff https://science.howstuffworks.com/can-sound-wave-kill.htm just requires to be this potent

Sure, but I don't really have a problem with labeling it as explosion manipulation. It does, in fact, make things explode.

 

[chosen]

Sure, but I don't really have a problem with labeling it as explosion manipulation. It does, in fact, make things explode.

Fair ig

 

[Mr. Bambu]

preemptively submitting myself to the torture of replying, eventually. no need to ask.

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

As mentioned in the last thread this was proposed, I agree to everything, but Body puppetry.

I think it should at least be limited body puppetry, since while not fully being able to complelty control the movements of someone else, they can at least force their body to move towards them, even if it's with the help of lust.

I personally feel like any form of "forced body control" should at least grant them Limited body Puppetry.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

As mentioned in the last thread this was proposed, I agree to everything, but Body puppetry.

I think it should at least be limited body puppetry, since while not fully being able to complelty control the movements of someone else, they can at least force their body to move towards them, even if it's with the help of lust.

I personally feel like any form of "forced body control" should at least grant them Limited body Puppetry.

Then we'd have to do that for damn near every empathic manipulation user on the site. People's emotions dictate their physical actions, that's just how emotions work. If you make someone scared using fear manipulation, and they run away from you, is that body puppetry?

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Then we'd have to do that for damn near every empathic manipulation user on the site. People's emotions dictate their physical actions, that's just how emotions work. If you make someone scared using fear manipulation, and they run away from you, is that body puppetry?

Ah, my English isen't the best So i think i explained it badly.

What i meant was, that the Lust Siren's force upon others, in this example Kratos, forceable makes Kratos walks towards her, even though he is some what mentally resistant. It is not just his mind being manipulated by their song, but also his body feeling and acting on that lust.

 

[Pepsimanslover_69]

There is the argument that the Lethe is a part of the river Styx, and Kratos is shown to resist the Styx's negative effects with the soul of Hades. The problem with that is that the Lethe is merely a subsection of the Styx, and we have no way to confirm if Kratos actually entered that specific part of it. It'd be like saying someone who goes to Ukraine must logically resist radiation manipulation, because Chernobyl is a part of Ukraine.

I agree with mostly everything except this part, the Lethe is still considered a part of the Styx, Hades's resistance is suggested to extend to the entirety of Styx, "you can swim in the river Styx with no harm)"

So I'm pretty sure his resistance would extend to the river Lethe.

But this should definitely be removed from his Demigod Key.

 

[Pepsimanslover_69]

Sorry for that, the link should be fixed.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I agree with mostly everything except this part, the Lethe is still considered a part of the Styx, Hades's resistance is suggested to extend to the entirety of Styx, "you can swim in the river Styx with no harm)"

So I'm pretty sure his resistance would extend to the river Lethe.

But this should definitely be removed from his Demigod Key.

I'm not sure why we're treating swimming in the Styx as the same thing as swimming in the very specific part of the Styx that erases memories. Like, a lot of places have subsections that are more dangerous than the location they're in, that doesn't mean entering that location requires any sort of special resistance.

Ah, my English isen't the best So i think i explained it badly.

What i meant was, that the Lust Siren's force upon others, in this example Kratos, forceable makes Kratos walks towards her, even though he is some what mentally resistant. It is not just his mind being manipulated by their song, but also his body feeling and acting on that lust.

He isn't mentally resistant. In the context of the novels, Kratos is explicitly affected by their song until he deafens himself with Zeus' lightning. He's moving towards them because he's filled with lust and wants to fuck them, I don't know how much simpler I can make this without quoting certain NSFW materials.

 

[Pepsimanslover_69]

I'm not sure why we're treating swimming in the Styx as the same thing as swimming in the very specific part of the Styx that erases memories. Like, a lot of places have subsections that are more dangerous than the location they're in, that doesn't mean entering that location requires any sort of special resistance.

The statement suggests that he can swim in the river without harm, I doubt that excludes a major part of the river.

 

[Rikimarox2]

What i meant was, that the Lust Siren's force upon others, in this example Kratos, forceable makes Kratos walks towards her, even though he is some what mentally resistant. It is not just his mind being manipulated by their song, but also his body feeling and acting on that lust.

Not sure how that's body puppetry? They aren't controlling him, they aren't actively taking his body and making it move towards him. They simply made him full of lust, and he, in response to the emotions that he is feeling, is moving towards them. It's like if someone used a hunger spell on me (Not exactly the same, but close enough), and I feel hungry to the point of starvation, me going to the kitchen isn't body puppetry, but merely me just acting on the hunger feeling I have.

Anyways, I agree with the CRT.

 

[Deagonx]

The novel specifies that he fell into the Aegean sea (presumably, he would’ve killed himself, and then erase his memories in the Lethe after he arrived in the Underworld).

There is the argument that the Lethe is a part of the river Styx, and Kratos is shown to resist the Styx's negative effects with the soul of Hades. The problem with that is that the Lethe is merely a subsection of the Styx, and we have no way to confirm if Kratos actually entered that specific part of it. It'd be like saying someone who goes to Ukraine must logically resist radiation manipulation, because Chernobyl is a part of Ukraine.

This is straightforward. If Styx and Lethe were meant to be regarded as identical, they wouldn't need to be distinguished in the first place. If there's no evidence that Kratos entered Lethe independent of the bare fact of him entering Styx, then we don't really have evidence at all. Moreover, if Kratos is meant to resist Lethe's memory-wiping properties we would expect someone/something to mention it.

This is from how Persephone can supposedly banish Kratos’ mind to another world. Looking at the in-game context though… She tells Kratos to leave the world behind and be with his wife.

Let's not forget here that the first scan does not say "mind" at all. It says "grabbing him and dragging him under into another world." It just plainly doesn't say the most important word to the argument, so this just isn't evidence at all. Very straightforward agree.

This stems from Kratos “resisting” Helios’ light. Which he does not actually do. He is explicitly pushed back and stunned by it, and can only walk forward if he blocks out the light with his hands (if he ever lowers his hands, he is immediately pushed back and stunned again).

Straightforward. The light affects him exactly how we would expect it to and his only defense is physically obstructing the light which anyone can do. Agree.

Sirens are assumed to be able to control one's body physically due to this scan. For further context, sirens are able to induce emotions, particularly lust, in those who hear their song. What is interpreted as them puppeteering Kratos' body directly is moreso him acting on his emotions, being driven by his lust to seek out the sirens and presumably have sex with them. This is a common consequence of manipulating one's emotions

There is, however, the argument that the author specified that Kratos' body was being affected, so it cannot merely be empathic manipulation. However, describing one's body as acting on its own is a common way of depicting intense feelings of lust and desire in a character, and isn't even incongruent with real life.

Very obvious agree. Body puppetry is specifically distinct from mind manip. The fact that Kratos can block it out by having his ears plugged means it isn't body puppetry, it's mind manip. They can accomplish the same thing, but through different mechanisms. It's very clear that the mechanism is mind manip.

Death manipulation is even more straightforward. The source shows sirens screeching at such a precise pitch that they made people's heads explode. This is explicitly a form of explosion manipulation, yet it is erroneously listed as death manipulation at the same time. They do not kill through some ability to just make things die without explanation;

Yeah this is clearly just using sound manip to cause an explosive effect. Not death manip in any sense of the word.

 

[Deagonx]

Oh, by the way. Lethe is not a section or part of Styx. I understand why it's being read that way, but looking at it more carefully:

Within the bounds of the mighty Styx that marks the borders of Hades, runs the river Lethe.

It's roundabout, but Styx is being described as the border of Hades, and Lethe is "within it's bounds" (along with everything in Hades). This is an artsy way of saying Lethe is in Hades, not that it's some kind of... sub-river within a main river. This makes more sense in general, and its also true of the original myth that they were separate rivers. It's fine for GOW to contradict the original myth, but I don't think that's happening here.

 

[Pepsimanslover_69]

Oh, by the way. Lethe is not a section or part of Styx. I understand why it's being read that way, but looking at it more carefully:



It's roundabout, but Styx is being described as the border of Hades, and Lethe is "within it's bounds" (along with everything in Hades). This is an artsy way of saying Lethe is in Hades, not that it's some kind of... sub-river within a main river. This makes more sense in general, and its also true of the original myth that they were separate rivers. It's fine for GOW to contradict the original myth, but I don't think that's happening here.

The statement doesn't describe the Styx as Hades's borders, it describes it as the marker of the borders( the same way people can mark lines to separate space) and river Lethe runs within said marker.

Regardless, we get a direct statement that the River Lethe was sprung from the Styx.

 

[Deagonx]

The statement doesn't describe the Styx as Hades's borders, it describes it as the marker of the borders( the same way people can mark lines to separate space) and river Lethe runs within said marker.

This isn't a material difference. We could say that a fence marks the border of Missouri, and that St. Louis is "within the bounds" of the fence, but that simply means it's inside the area that the fence surrounds, not that St. Louis is physically colocated with the actual fence itself.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

The statement doesn't describe the Styx as Hades's borders, it describes it as the marker of the borders( the same way people can mark lines to separate space) and river Lethe runs within said marker.

Regardless, we get a direct statement that the River Lethe was sprung from the Styx.

I'm pretty sure that quote comes from a part describing the original Greek myths, not anything from GoW itself (at least, that's the impression I get from reading the rest of the text). It also confirms that the Styx doesn't inherently carry all the properties of the rivers that stem from it, as the passage also mentions the Phlegethon, a river or burning fire, and I'm pretty sure the Styx isn't on fire.

 

[Pepsimanslover_69]

I'll need a moment to gather scans.

 

[Pepsimanslover_69]

I'm pretty sure that quote comes from a part describing the original Greek myths, not anything from GoW itself (at least, that's the impression I get from reading the rest of the text). It also confirms that the Styx doesn't inherently carry all the properties of the rivers that stem from it, as the passage also mentions the Phlegethon, a river or burning fire, and I'm pretty sure the Styx isn't on fire.

Those passages are there to explain the lore of the series as per the Guidebooks themselves, albeit the Guide are just secondary canon.

As for the Styx not being on fire, we actually do see a section of the Styx that's on fire in God of war (2005)(as per the novel and guidebook, this is confirmed as the Styx, so dismiss the werid misspelling. ) not only does this river look visually on fire, but the enemies we fight there are straight up in flames(which is likely from the river itself) with everything in this section being described as "exploding" as well.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

As for the Styx not being on fire, we actually do see a section of the Styx that's on fire in God of war (2005)(as per the novel and guidebook, this is confirmed as the Styx, so dismiss the werid misspelling. ) not only does this river look visually on fire, but the enemies we fight there are straight up in flames(which is likely from the river itself) with everything in this section being described as "exploding" as well.

I might be stupid, but I'm not seeing any fire in this section? It's tinted red, but there's a distinct lack of the area being engulfed in flames, aside from the existence of flaming enemies I guess. I also wouldn't say the last scan supports your point, since it just says there are things exploding there. Not really an indication that this is happening to the entire river or a notable section of it.

Those passages are there to explain the lore of the series as per the Guidebooks themselves, albeit the Guide are just secondary canon.

Which guidebook is this? I noticed that the God of War 1 Prima guide had sections dedicated to "classical mythology", so I assumed the scan was from a similar source.

 

[Deagonx]

I might be stupid, but I'm not seeing any fire in this section? It's tinted red, but there's a distinct lack of the area being engulfed in flames, aside from the existence of flaming enemies I guess.

No I'm in the same boat, it doesn't look like fire at all to me. Just a vague red haze.

 

[Pepsimanslover_69]

Which guidebook is this? I noticed that the God of War 1 Prima guide had sections dedicated to "classical mythology", so I assumed the scan was from a similar source.

The God of war 3 Guidebook.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

The God of war 3 Guidebook.

Thank you. While nothing outright says these passages are talking about the original myths, I think that can be reasonably assumed from how they spend a lot of time talking about various myths and legends rather than anything specific to GoW. For example:

 

[Pepsimanslover_69]

Thank you. While nothing outright says these passages are talking about the original myths, I think that can be reasonably assumed from how they spend a lot of time talking about various myths and legends rather than anything specific to GoW. For example:

The problem is that these passages are there to explain the lore behind the characters, which is why we use them currently.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

The problem is that these passages are there to explain the lore behind the characters, which is why we use them currently.

I didn't say it was unusable. In cases like this, I usually prefer to rely on things that support what is already shown in the series, which does not appear to be the case here.

 

[Pepsimanslover_69]

I might be stupid, but I'm not seeing any fire in this section? It's tinted red, but there's a distinct lack of the area being engulfed in flames, aside from the existence of flaming enemies I guess. I also wouldn't say the last scan supports your point, since it just says there are things exploding there. Not really an indication that this is happening to the entire river or a notable section of it.

No I'm in the same boat, it doesn't look like fire at all to me. Just a vague red haze.

Probably just game limits, as the devs describe the entire section as blood red and fire everywhere(which would include the river).

 

[Deagonx]

Probably just game limits, as the devs describe the entire section as blood red and fire everywhere(which would include the river).

This scan says the opposite of what you're saying.

"We didn't want to make Hades all blood red and fiery everywhere, so we needed to re-examine the color palettes."

This is not really useful information in any case. The chain of reasoning is way too specious. Styx might have fire in it (because there's redness and some enemies have fire), which one of the sub-rivers has, therefore Styx = sub-rivers, therefore resistance to mind manip. I feel that we are layering assumption after assumption here, and so much of the evidence is from strange sources like a random dev comment about color palettes or greek mythology snippets of questionable relation to GoW.

 

[Pepsimanslover_69]

This scan says the opposite of what you're saying.

"We didn't want to make Hades all blood red and fiery everywhere, so we needed to re-examine the color palettes."

Focus on the word re-examine here, this was what they had done with the previous games, they just decided to reexamine it to a different one in the case of God of war III.

 

[Deagonx]

He says "re-examine the palettes in all other areas" which means he is not referring to previous games. However, I'd prefer not to go back and forth about this. This is not great evidence regardless. The novelization even says the following:

He plunged through the blood-hazed gloom of Hades, falling toward the shores of the river Styx.

He had fallen so far that now he began to see the landscape of the underworld. Though he was still too high to see the river, he began to pickout solid-seeming bone-white structures that stood or crossed or loomed in the blood-colored gloom below

The captain had a penetrating voice, and Kratos heard him screaming curses as his shade cartwheeled downward to vanish in the blood mist above the Styx

 

[Pepsimanslover_69]

Alright, then I'm in full agreement with the OP.

 

[Eseseso]

Let's kick things up a notch!
(ie; I'm doing slightly more abilities this time around lol)

Thank goodness

Resistance to Memory Manipulation & Mind Manipulation [Kratos, Demigod Key]

At the end of the first God of War, Kratos attempts to free himself from the nightmares that plague his mind by killing himself with the intent to erase his memories in the river Lethe. His profile says he resisted this (or that he should resist it, but who cares), which is made evident by the fact that he retains his memories after Athena raises him from the body of water he jumped into. The obvious problem is that Kratos never entered the Lethe. The novel specifies that he fell into the Aegean sea (presumably, he would’ve killed himself, and then erase his memories in the Lethe after he arrived in the Underworld).

There is the argument that the Lethe is a part of the river Styx, and Kratos is shown to resist the Styx's negative effects with the soul of Hades. The problem with that is that the Lethe is merely a subsection of the Styx, and we have no way to confirm if Kratos actually entered that specific part of it. It'd be like saying someone who goes to Ukraine must logically resist radiation manipulation, because Chernobyl is a part of Ukraine.

Seems fine.

Mind BFR/Resistance to Mind BFR [Persephone & Kratos, Demigod Key]

This is from how Persephone can supposedly banish Kratos’ mind to another world. Looking at the in-game context though… She tells Kratos to leave the world behind and be with his wife. I believe most people would view this as something akin to a daydream or hallucination, where Kratos “leaves behind this world” (in a metaphorical sense) and enters a better world found within his imagination. I do not think many people would assume that this involves Persephone banishing Kratos’ consciousness to an alternate reality. All the language used in regards to leaving this world behind is equally applicable when it comes to experiencing some kind of vision, hallucination, or other mental influence that makes it appear as though you are no longer a part of the world (I’ve done a not insubstantial amount of acid, so I can personally attest to this fact).

If this were truly BFR, then it would imply the existence of an alternate dimension where Kratos’ wife never died, and this is something that is never brought up again even though Persephone can apparently just send people there at will. That seems like a far more extreme conclusion to come to than “Persephone made Kratos see his dead wife to put him at ease so he’d let his guard down”.

Yeah, this kind of seems more like mind hax, the BFR being mostly just figurative language like you said.

Resistance to Status Effect Inducement [Kratos, God Key]

This stems from Kratos “resisting” Helios’ light. Which he does not actually do. He is explicitly pushed back and stunned by it, and can only walk forward if he blocks out the light with his hands (if he ever lowers his hands, he is immediately pushed back and stunned again).

Seems ok.

Body Puppetry & Death Manipulation [Sirens]

Sirens are assumed to be able to control one's body physically due to this scan. For further context, sirens are able to induce emotions, particularly lust, in those who hear their song. What is interpreted as them puppeteering Kratos' body directly is moreso him acting on his emotions, being driven by his lust to seek out the sirens and presumably have sex with them. This is a common consequence of manipulating one's emotions, as an individual's actions are of course governed by their state of mind; Making someone depressed and causing them to commit suicide, making someone angry and causing them to physically lash out at an ally, or making someone calm and causing them to stop fighting and drop their weapons are all possible examples of empathic manipulation "manipulating" one's physical body, though this is not body puppetry and is, again, merely how the human mind works.

There is, however, the argument that the author specified that Kratos' body was being affected, so it cannot merely be empathic manipulation. However, describing one's body as acting on its own is a common way of depicting intense feelings of lust and desire in a character, and isn't even incongruent with real life. You can see this depicted in a substantial amount of written erotica, particularly fanfiction (though I will avoid quoting any here for obvious reasons; just know that I am well versed on this matter), and the author is likely aware of this and merely wrote the scene in this way to depict how ravenously horny Kratos is (the phrase "wanting them as he had never wanted another before" makes this clear).

Sure.

Death manipulation is even more straightforward. The source shows sirens screeching at such a precise pitch that they made people's heads explode. This is explicitly a form of explosion manipulation, yet it is erroneously listed as death manipulation at the same time. They do not kill through some ability to just make things die without explanation; The explanation is that they make people's heads explode, which kills them (as things tend to die without their heads [citation needed]). I have read through the various manuals, guidebooks, and novelizations that exist, and none provide support for death hax beyond the instance of sirens blowing people up. This is a simple matter of a mislabeled ability.

Those who are accepted as resisting the effects of sirens (Kratos and Zeus) would lose resistance to these abilities, or at least have the justifications altered so that any references to sirens are removed. Death manipulation would be replaced with explosion manipulation, where applicable.

Yeah that doesn't seem like death hax.

 

[Georredannea15]

Dude... this again.

When you lose Istanbul derby that was ambitiously choreographed, it's a burden for you to get out of your dumpster...

Anyway, I think I agree with the others.
There is no reason to oppose. Mehh

And I think Fuji has a fantasy for downgrade this kind of cornered haxs.

 

[CloverDragon03]

The proposed changes seem okay. I think that generally speaking, there's some confusion on what is and isn't Death Manipulation in particular - as I've seen cases of it being erroneously given like this

 

[Omnificence]

My boi Spawn now has a better chance

Anyway, agree with all.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Agree with the revisions.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Bump

 

[Deagonx]

@Mr. Bambu @Firestorm808 @CrimsonStarFallen @DarkGrath

Any of you mind looking over this? If it helps, the verse supporters are also in agreement with these changes, so it's uncontroversial this time:

Alright, then I'm in full agreement with the OP.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

the verse supporters are also in agreement with these changes, so it's uncontroversial this time:

To add onto this, Planck agreed with the removal of body puppetry and resistance to status effect inducement in the original thread, and Glass agreed with the removal of body puppetry off-site.

 

[AbaddonTheDisappointment]

Disagree so that this gets an extra few pages

These look fine, agree