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Upgrading the Dragonball Z characters
- Thread starter Antvasima
- Start date
- Status
I really must confess, the rampant DBZ downplayers are not giving me much reason to want to remain on this site and continue visiting it. I could give names, but then they'd just block me in their zeal to defang and defame DBZ.
Let me just say that of course I don't think you're the downplayer personally. You're the sole voice of reason on this site, in my opinion.
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Well I think the dbz universe is made up of 4 big galaxys or 4 quadrants of multiple galaxy's since those are really the only 2 theory's to make sence
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Then it would be 4 BIG Galaxys like big enought to make up a univesres similer in size to ours
- 167,667
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- Thread starter
- #50
Expanding infinitely from the centre like ours does not mean that something is infinite. Our universe is around 91 billion lightyears wide, not infinite. All that we know is that the Dragonball universe has 4 galaxies, and that the North Galaxy is equivalent to our Milky Way Galaxy.
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@Xtrap12
1) Like Antvasima said, infinitely expanding not = infinite. Almost every cosmic structure (planets, stars, galaxies, etc.) vary vastly in size. Don't you think universes can be the same?
2) Where is the size of Dragon Ball universe stated to be equal to ours? Simply because both are expanding, size of Dragon Ball universe = ours? That's a very loose conclusion, you know.
3) Again, like Antvasima pointed out, the Dragon Ball universe was shown to have 4 galaxies, all the size of the Milky Way.
4) Next time, please link to original Daizenshuu scans (Japanese ones) instead of online translations. While I'm personally cool with it, some people always cry foul over mistranslations.
1) Like Antvasima said, infinitely expanding not = infinite. Almost every cosmic structure (planets, stars, galaxies, etc.) vary vastly in size. Don't you think universes can be the same?
2) Where is the size of Dragon Ball universe stated to be equal to ours? Simply because both are expanding, size of Dragon Ball universe = ours? That's a very loose conclusion, you know.
3) Again, like Antvasima pointed out, the Dragon Ball universe was shown to have 4 galaxies, all the size of the Milky Way.
4) Next time, please link to original Daizenshuu scans (Japanese ones) instead of online translations. While I'm personally cool with it, some people always cry foul over mistranslations.
Besides, canon status is not important. Toriyama adopted elements of the Other World filler tournament arc into the manga (what some fans call the "true canon") because he liked it. It's not the first time it's happened, either. Therefore, anime is just as valid as the manga.
Here are some examples of lightspeed reaction time. In the 21st Tenkaichi Budokai, Krillin and Master Roshi described in detail for about five minutes a series of reactions that took place in an instant during the flash of light in which they fought that would have taken three minutes, at the very least. Using power scaling, in which their strength has grown considerably to planet destroying and star destroying levels by the end of the Cell Saga, and Gohan effortlessly moves four people a dozen if not hundreds of meters away from Cell's punch a fraction of a second before it hit. And I've seen the panels, Cell did say in the manga that he could "blow away" the planets in the solar system. The only kind of power that can produce that effect is a supernova, making him, at minimum, a star buster as opposed to an outright solar system destroyer.
You know, does anyone know how you start your own Wiki? I'm considering launching my own version of this site, no matter how much it costs.
Here are some examples of lightspeed reaction time. In the 21st Tenkaichi Budokai, Krillin and Master Roshi described in detail for about five minutes a series of reactions that took place in an instant during the flash of light in which they fought that would have taken three minutes, at the very least. Using power scaling, in which their strength has grown considerably to planet destroying and star destroying levels by the end of the Cell Saga, and Gohan effortlessly moves four people a dozen if not hundreds of meters away from Cell's punch a fraction of a second before it hit. And I've seen the panels, Cell did say in the manga that he could "blow away" the planets in the solar system. The only kind of power that can produce that effect is a supernova, making him, at minimum, a star buster as opposed to an outright solar system destroyer.
You know, does anyone know how you start your own Wiki? I'm considering launching my own version of this site, no matter how much it costs.
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@Xtrap12:
I'm still not convinced, since I am not moved by the credibility of your evidence. While the statements themselves maybe accurate, your interpretation of them is what I disagree with. I think there are too many loose conjectures in your interpretation. Add to that the fact that Dragon Ball is quite possibly the most controversial Verse on vsbattleswiki, I feel an inertia to changing its accepted power levels and theories without solid, incontrovertible proof.
However, I'll leave the judgement to Antvasima. He's the Admin, after all.
I'm still not convinced, since I am not moved by the credibility of your evidence. While the statements themselves maybe accurate, your interpretation of them is what I disagree with. I think there are too many loose conjectures in your interpretation. Add to that the fact that Dragon Ball is quite possibly the most controversial Verse on vsbattleswiki, I feel an inertia to changing its accepted power levels and theories without solid, incontrovertible proof.
However, I'll leave the judgement to Antvasima. He's the Admin, after all.
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- 76,234
- Thread starter
- #54
Well, my judgement is far from perfect, but I think that Goku, Beerus, Whis, Omega Shenron, and Janemba are different degrees of multi-galaxy level. However, that doesn't matter as long as all of the other admins think that the Dragonball characters should stay where they are.
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@Super Saiyan 3 Gohan:
"Besides, canon status is not important. Toriyama adopted elements of the Other World filler tournament arc into the manga (what some fans call the "true canon") because he liked it. It's not the first time it's happened, either. Therefore, anime is just as valid as the manga." - I COMPLETELY DISAGREE with this statement.
The anime is an adaptation of the manga, and as such Goku and all Dragon Ball characters should be considered based manga only. You're trying to suggest that Superman should be weaker because his movie version should be considered canon? Seriously, bro? That's the exact reason why we have different pages for the different adaptations of Superman. The "official" Goku page will be manga-only, so please: deal with it.
Your lightspeed reaction time example is faulty as well. "In the 21st Tenkaichi Budokai, Krillin and Master Roshi described in detail for about five minutes a series of reactions that took place in an instant during the flash of light in which they fought that would have taken three minutes, at the very least." - That's flawed logic. Something which takes place "instantly" isn't light speed, genius. It simply means that their reaction time was faster than the ability of the naked eye to process movement. That means their movement was faster than 1/16th of a second (distinction capability of the naked eye). Light speed reaction on the other hand, is if it would have been in 1/299,792,458th of a second.
"Cell did say in the manga that he could "blow away" the planets in the solar system.": Character statements are far from what I call solid proof. They might be considered true, but if the powerscaling doesn't match, then they're considered to be hyperbole. LOL, Black Zetsu "stated" that Itachi is "invincible" with his Susanoo. You're gonna try and convince me of that too?
I usually don't try to insult anyone personally, but your logic from the very get go is poorly constructed, highly dissonant with the standard procedure and is based entirely on your interpretation, which I also disagree with.
@Xtrap12:
All the links of the Kaizenshuu and Daizenshuu were translated versions, so I'm still not convinced. And like they say, if the feats disprove, the statements don't matter. And DBZ is a classic when it comes to lack of feats.
Sorry, it might seem like I'm deliberately downplaying DBZ, but it is one of the most controversial Verses on the wiki, notorious for fanboys and wankers, so I'm not going to be moved easily.
"Besides, canon status is not important. Toriyama adopted elements of the Other World filler tournament arc into the manga (what some fans call the "true canon") because he liked it. It's not the first time it's happened, either. Therefore, anime is just as valid as the manga." - I COMPLETELY DISAGREE with this statement.
The anime is an adaptation of the manga, and as such Goku and all Dragon Ball characters should be considered based manga only. You're trying to suggest that Superman should be weaker because his movie version should be considered canon? Seriously, bro? That's the exact reason why we have different pages for the different adaptations of Superman. The "official" Goku page will be manga-only, so please: deal with it.
Your lightspeed reaction time example is faulty as well. "In the 21st Tenkaichi Budokai, Krillin and Master Roshi described in detail for about five minutes a series of reactions that took place in an instant during the flash of light in which they fought that would have taken three minutes, at the very least." - That's flawed logic. Something which takes place "instantly" isn't light speed, genius. It simply means that their reaction time was faster than the ability of the naked eye to process movement. That means their movement was faster than 1/16th of a second (distinction capability of the naked eye). Light speed reaction on the other hand, is if it would have been in 1/299,792,458th of a second.
"Cell did say in the manga that he could "blow away" the planets in the solar system.": Character statements are far from what I call solid proof. They might be considered true, but if the powerscaling doesn't match, then they're considered to be hyperbole. LOL, Black Zetsu "stated" that Itachi is "invincible" with his Susanoo. You're gonna try and convince me of that too?
I usually don't try to insult anyone personally, but your logic from the very get go is poorly constructed, highly dissonant with the standard procedure and is based entirely on your interpretation, which I also disagree with.
@Xtrap12:
All the links of the Kaizenshuu and Daizenshuu were translated versions, so I'm still not convinced. And like they say, if the feats disprove, the statements don't matter. And DBZ is a classic when it comes to lack of feats.
Sorry, it might seem like I'm deliberately downplaying DBZ, but it is one of the most controversial Verses on the wiki, notorious for fanboys and wankers, so I'm not going to be moved easily.
@Lord Kapenvy: No really, I have found the vast majority of this attitude tends to come from Americans who restrict everything to manga, nothing else, either because they worship the manga or they hate DBZ so much (like you, apparently) that they want to use it to defang DBZ. The Japanese don't care about canon status. Look it up. It's TRUE. So, pick a side: Do you wanna go with the American version, which means that you adhere to our rigid view of canon status, or the Japanese? If you go with ours, then you've sealed your fate. Because here is the EXACT screenshot from the manga.
http://img600.imageshack.us/img600/4374/kidbuugalaybusting.gif
It clearly states in only a few years that Buu had destroyed entire galaxies. At the very minimum, he should be galaxy buster, not a casual galaxy buster, but a galaxy buster nonetheless, even if it's a small galaxy, because it's fact that there is only four galaxies left in the DBZ universe, and that's because Buu destroyed them. Being a large star buster still means he can destroy large segments of the universe, but that would take thousands if not millions of years, and even a small galaxy buster would take a while, which isn't consistent with what is written in the manga. And you can't flip flop between Japanese and American; how would you, a Superman fanatic, like it if I chose to reject Superman's 200-quintillion ton lift and yet I DID accept Superman being hurt by Lex Luthor's Scientific Spirit Bomb. You wouldn't like that, would you? Make up your damn mind.
Then by that logic Superman shouldn't be considered lightspeed either since we never technically see him reach lightspeed because it's in a comic strip not designed for scientific accuracy, the same as DBZ! Even the cartoons don't and can't ever show him going lightspeed! And you can't then say that he is because other characters claim that he is; by that same logic, Raditz was lightspeed and Goku and Frieza were moving beyond lightspeed (remember, King Kai easily tracked Goku's faster-than-light ship yet he had a hard time following Goku and Frieza). Don't deny for our side what you allow for your side when the argument is very similar. You know what the truth is? You are never going to be convinced that they are moving beyond lightspeed not because of the facts, but because you don't WANT to believe it. It's that simple.
I can accept that Cell's statement could, from a certain point of view, be considered hyperbole (though if you also believe Superman is moving at lightspeed, then you're a hypocrite because we only have the statements of other characters and himself to prove it, not actual fact because you can NEVER literally SHOW someone moving or fighting at lightspeed like you seem to think they should), but what is NOT hyperbole is that Buu destroyed every galaxy in the entire DBZ universe but four of them. THAT is FACT, and he should be at least a small galaxy buster, though my personal belief is that he's a multi-galaxy buster.
Not controversial. Mercilessly picked on and ridiculed and belittled and bullied. THAT is the truth. The admins and the mods here flat-out hate Dragon Ball Z. And it's motivated by troll hatred; to try and defang and remove DBZ as potential competition to DC Comics and how strong the characters there can get. It's an insidious movement because rather than just try and accept how strong these characters are head-on and let their hero win legitimately they try and stack the deck to ensure that they absolutely never stand a chance. It's infantile and pathetic. Antvasima thinks DBZ should be upgraded, and he doesn't even like the series! This site is anything but fair and impartial, it's blatantly biased, period. And you're fooling yourself if you think you're any different. I can tell from your tone you don't even like DBZ. Have you ever even WATCHED it or READ the manga? And I mean RECENTLY too. Because if you haven't, then you have no business debating something I know so well and watch so much, because I know it far better than you ever will.
http://img600.imageshack.us/img600/4374/kidbuugalaybusting.gif
It clearly states in only a few years that Buu had destroyed entire galaxies. At the very minimum, he should be galaxy buster, not a casual galaxy buster, but a galaxy buster nonetheless, even if it's a small galaxy, because it's fact that there is only four galaxies left in the DBZ universe, and that's because Buu destroyed them. Being a large star buster still means he can destroy large segments of the universe, but that would take thousands if not millions of years, and even a small galaxy buster would take a while, which isn't consistent with what is written in the manga. And you can't flip flop between Japanese and American; how would you, a Superman fanatic, like it if I chose to reject Superman's 200-quintillion ton lift and yet I DID accept Superman being hurt by Lex Luthor's Scientific Spirit Bomb. You wouldn't like that, would you? Make up your damn mind.
Then by that logic Superman shouldn't be considered lightspeed either since we never technically see him reach lightspeed because it's in a comic strip not designed for scientific accuracy, the same as DBZ! Even the cartoons don't and can't ever show him going lightspeed! And you can't then say that he is because other characters claim that he is; by that same logic, Raditz was lightspeed and Goku and Frieza were moving beyond lightspeed (remember, King Kai easily tracked Goku's faster-than-light ship yet he had a hard time following Goku and Frieza). Don't deny for our side what you allow for your side when the argument is very similar. You know what the truth is? You are never going to be convinced that they are moving beyond lightspeed not because of the facts, but because you don't WANT to believe it. It's that simple.
I can accept that Cell's statement could, from a certain point of view, be considered hyperbole (though if you also believe Superman is moving at lightspeed, then you're a hypocrite because we only have the statements of other characters and himself to prove it, not actual fact because you can NEVER literally SHOW someone moving or fighting at lightspeed like you seem to think they should), but what is NOT hyperbole is that Buu destroyed every galaxy in the entire DBZ universe but four of them. THAT is FACT, and he should be at least a small galaxy buster, though my personal belief is that he's a multi-galaxy buster.
Not controversial. Mercilessly picked on and ridiculed and belittled and bullied. THAT is the truth. The admins and the mods here flat-out hate Dragon Ball Z. And it's motivated by troll hatred; to try and defang and remove DBZ as potential competition to DC Comics and how strong the characters there can get. It's an insidious movement because rather than just try and accept how strong these characters are head-on and let their hero win legitimately they try and stack the deck to ensure that they absolutely never stand a chance. It's infantile and pathetic. Antvasima thinks DBZ should be upgraded, and he doesn't even like the series! This site is anything but fair and impartial, it's blatantly biased, period. And you're fooling yourself if you think you're any different. I can tell from your tone you don't even like DBZ. Have you ever even WATCHED it or READ the manga? And I mean RECENTLY too. Because if you haven't, then you have no business debating something I know so well and watch so much, because I know it far better than you ever will.
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@Super Saiyan 3 Gohan:
CASE 1
"No really, I have found the vast majority of this attitude tends to come from Americans who restrict everything to manga, nothing else, either because they worship the manga or they hate DBZ so much (like you, apparently) that they want to use it to defang DBZ. The Japanese don't care about canon status. Look it up. It's TRUE. So, pick a side: Do you wanna go with the American version, which means that you adhere to our rigid view of canon status, or the Japanese?"
Fallacy: Appeal to tradition; "American version", "the Japanese" way
LOL, I don't give a **** about either "American version" or "the Japanese" way? What the **** are those terms supposed to mean anyway? Are you implying a person's thought process depends on what country they live in?
I'm going by the simple definition in which I'll choose the ORIGINAL appearance of a character as canon. Goku originally appeared in a manga, hence only his manga feats are to be accepted, apart from events the author specifically states as canon material (like Battle of Gods). If you wish to use anime version of Goku, or any other adapted version, go right ahead. I never asked you not to, simply to differentiate the anime version from the manga one. The Sherlock Holmes in Arthur Conan Doyle's books will be the canon version, not the Movie or the TV series character. That's exactly why we have two pages for Azathoth, dumbass. One for the Cthulhu Mythos version and the other for the Demonbane version, despite both of them being the same character.
CASE 2
"If you go with ours, then you've sealed your fate. Because here is the EXACT screenshot from the manga.
[Your Image]
It clearly states in only a few years that Buu had destroyed entire galaxies. At the very minimum, he should be galaxy buster, not a casual galaxy buster, but a galaxy buster nonetheless, even if it's a small galaxy, because it's fact that there is only four galaxies left in the DBZ universe, and that's because Buu destroyed them. Being a large star buster still means he can destroy large segments of the universe, but that would take thousands if not millions of years, and even a small galaxy buster would take a while, which isn't consistent with what is written in the manga."
^ LOL, that's obviously an scanlation. Fan-made bullshit, to put it simply. But hey, since we're discussing scanlations
Same page on ********
Same page on MangaTow
Damn man, even the scanlations disagree with you. Both state "hundreds of planets" quite clearly. Stop twisting the canon material into something completely different. Hell, there was even a debate on the very same topic, about the very same page.
Real vs Fake
Just accept it, dude. Dragon Ball characters are Star System at best. All your so-called "evidence" cannot overcome the crushing truth about featless claims and inane powerscaling.
CASE 3
"And you can't flip flop between Japanese and American; how would you, a Superman fanatic, like it if I chose to reject Superman's 200-quintillion ton lift and yet I DID accept Superman being hurt by Lex Luthor's Scientific Spirit Bomb. You wouldn't like that, would you? Make up your damn mind."
Fallacy: Red Herring; Superman is totally and completely irrelevant to this thread
I must admit, this is a classic example of Red Herring. Superman has no relation to this thread, yet you deliberately bring him up just to change the actual point of this thread: Should Dragon Ball charcters be upgraded or not?
You bring up the topic of Superman in a poor attempt at provoking me for who knows what reason. By this point, I think you could be considered a troll by some people for deliberately provoking another member of the community using a classic bait technique in order to deviate from the actual topic, in which said member disagreed with you.
CASE 4
"Then by that logic Superman shouldn't be considered lightspeed either since we never technically see him reach lightspeed because it's in a comic strip not designed for scientific accuracy, the same as DBZ! Even the cartoons don't and can't ever show him going lightspeed! And you can't then say that he is because other characters claim that he is; by that same logic, Raditz was lightspeed and Goku and Frieza were moving beyond lightspeed (remember, King Kai easily tracked Goku's faster-than-light ship yet he had a hard time following Goku and Frieza). Don't deny for our side what you allow for your side when the argument is very similar. You know what the truth is? You are never going to be convinced that they are moving beyond lightspeed not because of the facts, but because you don't WANT to believe it. It's that simple."
Fallacy: Circular Reasoning; because Superman was never shown to be FTL, yet is considered to be, the same applies for Dragon Ball characters as well
This argument of yours is also a classic case of circular reasoning, as well as incorrect. I won't bother to debate it with you, but Superman has been shown to reach FTL speed (especially Pre-Crisis Superman) multiple times. None of the Dragon Ball characters have been shown to be faster than light, though.
Simply because Superman is considered FTL, Dragon Ball characters should be as well? Like I said, a classic case of Circular Reasoning Fallacy. Hmm...you definitely seem as if you're trolling a bit...anyways, moving on...
CASE 5
"I can accept that Cell's statement could, from a certain point of view, be considered hyperbole (though if you also believe Superman is moving at lightspeed, then you're a hypocrite because we only have the statements of other characters and himself to prove it, not actual fact because you can NEVER literally SHOW someone moving or fighting at lightspeed like you seem to think they should), but what is NOT hyperbole is that Buu destroyed every galaxy in the entire DBZ universe but four of them. THAT is FACT, and he should be at least a small galaxy buster, though my personal belief is that he's a multi-galaxy buster."
Fallacies
a) Argument of ignorance; But Buu destroyed a galaxy in the anime!
Well, Buu was never shown to have destroyed a galaxy in the manga and your claims of canonicity are irrelevant compared to the standard online system, so the anime will be ignored by me. Additionally, your manga scan is an inaccurately translated page of fanfiction.
b) Non-Sequitur; Since there are only four galaxies in the Dragon Ball universe, the rest of them must have been destroyed by Buu
Do I need to elaborate on this? You conclusion of Buu having destroyed every galaxy except four is not implied at all by the premise of the Dragon Ball universe having only four galaxies.
c) Red Herring; Superman is totally and completely irrelevant to this thread
Yet again, the mention of Superman is entirely unnecessary apart from trying to provoke me (again).
d) Argument from belief; personal belief that Buu is multi-galaxy buster
Yes, you are absolutely free to exercise your personal beliefs on FanFictio , not a wiki where powers and stats are based on feats and not beliefs.
You know, I'm seriously doubting if you are a troll...
CASE 6
"Not controversial. Mercilessly picked on and ridiculed and belittled and bullied. THAT is the truth. The admins and the mods here flat-out hate Dragon Ball Z. And it's motivated by troll hatred; to try and defang and remove DBZ as potential competition to DC Comics and how strong the characters there can get. It's an insidious movement because rather than just try and accept how strong these characters are head-on and let their hero win legitimately they try and stack the deck to ensure that they absolutely never stand a chance. It's infantile and pathetic. Antvasima thinks DBZ should be upgraded, and he doesn't even like the series! This site is anything but fair and impartial, it's blatantly biased, period. And you're fooling yourself if you think you're any different. I can tell from your tone you don't even like DBZ. Have you ever even WATCHED it or READ the manga? And I mean RECENTLY too. Because if you haven't, then you have no business debating something I know so well and watch so much, because I know it far better than you ever will."
Fallacy: Ad Hominem; argument against member (and wiki), not the point
Yet another classic example of an age-old fallacy. Instead of trying to prove your point, you instead try to discredit the entire wiki, admins, members as well as myself for not agreeing with your personal opinion of whether Dragon Ball characters should be upgraded or not.
As for Antvasima, even though I personally disagree with him regarding the Dragon Ball characters' power levels, I respect him for trying to maintain a neutral stance as an admin, something it seems you are evidently incapable of.
Why it seems so? Well, when I disagreed with you, you proclaimed (and here i quote verbatim): "I can tell from your tone you don't even like DBZ. Have you ever even WATCHED it or READ the manga? And I mean RECENTLY too."
Well, you have already formed a biased opinion of me. Please go to my wiki profile page here and it states on the SECOND line that I'm a long time supporter of Dragon Ball. It seems like your "telling from tone" skills need some real polishing buddy.
Oh, and just in case you doubt it, please check the page history as well. So far there has been only one edit (changed from the default page, that is) on Feb 15, 2015, so you cannot claim that I edited my profile when I posted this.
I really think I should report you to the Admins for attacking me personally over a difference of opinion when I did absolutely nothing to provoke you, but I'll let it slide for now.
CASE 1
"No really, I have found the vast majority of this attitude tends to come from Americans who restrict everything to manga, nothing else, either because they worship the manga or they hate DBZ so much (like you, apparently) that they want to use it to defang DBZ. The Japanese don't care about canon status. Look it up. It's TRUE. So, pick a side: Do you wanna go with the American version, which means that you adhere to our rigid view of canon status, or the Japanese?"
Fallacy: Appeal to tradition; "American version", "the Japanese" way
LOL, I don't give a **** about either "American version" or "the Japanese" way? What the **** are those terms supposed to mean anyway? Are you implying a person's thought process depends on what country they live in?
I'm going by the simple definition in which I'll choose the ORIGINAL appearance of a character as canon. Goku originally appeared in a manga, hence only his manga feats are to be accepted, apart from events the author specifically states as canon material (like Battle of Gods). If you wish to use anime version of Goku, or any other adapted version, go right ahead. I never asked you not to, simply to differentiate the anime version from the manga one. The Sherlock Holmes in Arthur Conan Doyle's books will be the canon version, not the Movie or the TV series character. That's exactly why we have two pages for Azathoth, dumbass. One for the Cthulhu Mythos version and the other for the Demonbane version, despite both of them being the same character.
CASE 2
"If you go with ours, then you've sealed your fate. Because here is the EXACT screenshot from the manga.
[Your Image]
It clearly states in only a few years that Buu had destroyed entire galaxies. At the very minimum, he should be galaxy buster, not a casual galaxy buster, but a galaxy buster nonetheless, even if it's a small galaxy, because it's fact that there is only four galaxies left in the DBZ universe, and that's because Buu destroyed them. Being a large star buster still means he can destroy large segments of the universe, but that would take thousands if not millions of years, and even a small galaxy buster would take a while, which isn't consistent with what is written in the manga."
^ LOL, that's obviously an scanlation. Fan-made bullshit, to put it simply. But hey, since we're discussing scanlations
Same page on ********
Same page on MangaTow
Damn man, even the scanlations disagree with you. Both state "hundreds of planets" quite clearly. Stop twisting the canon material into something completely different. Hell, there was even a debate on the very same topic, about the very same page.
Real vs Fake
Just accept it, dude. Dragon Ball characters are Star System at best. All your so-called "evidence" cannot overcome the crushing truth about featless claims and inane powerscaling.
CASE 3
"And you can't flip flop between Japanese and American; how would you, a Superman fanatic, like it if I chose to reject Superman's 200-quintillion ton lift and yet I DID accept Superman being hurt by Lex Luthor's Scientific Spirit Bomb. You wouldn't like that, would you? Make up your damn mind."
Fallacy: Red Herring; Superman is totally and completely irrelevant to this thread
I must admit, this is a classic example of Red Herring. Superman has no relation to this thread, yet you deliberately bring him up just to change the actual point of this thread: Should Dragon Ball charcters be upgraded or not?
You bring up the topic of Superman in a poor attempt at provoking me for who knows what reason. By this point, I think you could be considered a troll by some people for deliberately provoking another member of the community using a classic bait technique in order to deviate from the actual topic, in which said member disagreed with you.
CASE 4
"Then by that logic Superman shouldn't be considered lightspeed either since we never technically see him reach lightspeed because it's in a comic strip not designed for scientific accuracy, the same as DBZ! Even the cartoons don't and can't ever show him going lightspeed! And you can't then say that he is because other characters claim that he is; by that same logic, Raditz was lightspeed and Goku and Frieza were moving beyond lightspeed (remember, King Kai easily tracked Goku's faster-than-light ship yet he had a hard time following Goku and Frieza). Don't deny for our side what you allow for your side when the argument is very similar. You know what the truth is? You are never going to be convinced that they are moving beyond lightspeed not because of the facts, but because you don't WANT to believe it. It's that simple."
Fallacy: Circular Reasoning; because Superman was never shown to be FTL, yet is considered to be, the same applies for Dragon Ball characters as well
This argument of yours is also a classic case of circular reasoning, as well as incorrect. I won't bother to debate it with you, but Superman has been shown to reach FTL speed (especially Pre-Crisis Superman) multiple times. None of the Dragon Ball characters have been shown to be faster than light, though.
Simply because Superman is considered FTL, Dragon Ball characters should be as well? Like I said, a classic case of Circular Reasoning Fallacy. Hmm...you definitely seem as if you're trolling a bit...anyways, moving on...
CASE 5
"I can accept that Cell's statement could, from a certain point of view, be considered hyperbole (though if you also believe Superman is moving at lightspeed, then you're a hypocrite because we only have the statements of other characters and himself to prove it, not actual fact because you can NEVER literally SHOW someone moving or fighting at lightspeed like you seem to think they should), but what is NOT hyperbole is that Buu destroyed every galaxy in the entire DBZ universe but four of them. THAT is FACT, and he should be at least a small galaxy buster, though my personal belief is that he's a multi-galaxy buster."
Fallacies
a) Argument of ignorance; But Buu destroyed a galaxy in the anime!
Well, Buu was never shown to have destroyed a galaxy in the manga and your claims of canonicity are irrelevant compared to the standard online system, so the anime will be ignored by me. Additionally, your manga scan is an inaccurately translated page of fanfiction.
b) Non-Sequitur; Since there are only four galaxies in the Dragon Ball universe, the rest of them must have been destroyed by Buu
Do I need to elaborate on this? You conclusion of Buu having destroyed every galaxy except four is not implied at all by the premise of the Dragon Ball universe having only four galaxies.
c) Red Herring; Superman is totally and completely irrelevant to this thread
Yet again, the mention of Superman is entirely unnecessary apart from trying to provoke me (again).
d) Argument from belief; personal belief that Buu is multi-galaxy buster
Yes, you are absolutely free to exercise your personal beliefs on FanFictio , not a wiki where powers and stats are based on feats and not beliefs.
You know, I'm seriously doubting if you are a troll...
CASE 6
"Not controversial. Mercilessly picked on and ridiculed and belittled and bullied. THAT is the truth. The admins and the mods here flat-out hate Dragon Ball Z. And it's motivated by troll hatred; to try and defang and remove DBZ as potential competition to DC Comics and how strong the characters there can get. It's an insidious movement because rather than just try and accept how strong these characters are head-on and let their hero win legitimately they try and stack the deck to ensure that they absolutely never stand a chance. It's infantile and pathetic. Antvasima thinks DBZ should be upgraded, and he doesn't even like the series! This site is anything but fair and impartial, it's blatantly biased, period. And you're fooling yourself if you think you're any different. I can tell from your tone you don't even like DBZ. Have you ever even WATCHED it or READ the manga? And I mean RECENTLY too. Because if you haven't, then you have no business debating something I know so well and watch so much, because I know it far better than you ever will."
Fallacy: Ad Hominem; argument against member (and wiki), not the point
Yet another classic example of an age-old fallacy. Instead of trying to prove your point, you instead try to discredit the entire wiki, admins, members as well as myself for not agreeing with your personal opinion of whether Dragon Ball characters should be upgraded or not.
As for Antvasima, even though I personally disagree with him regarding the Dragon Ball characters' power levels, I respect him for trying to maintain a neutral stance as an admin, something it seems you are evidently incapable of.
Why it seems so? Well, when I disagreed with you, you proclaimed (and here i quote verbatim): "I can tell from your tone you don't even like DBZ. Have you ever even WATCHED it or READ the manga? And I mean RECENTLY too."
Well, you have already formed a biased opinion of me. Please go to my wiki profile page here and it states on the SECOND line that I'm a long time supporter of Dragon Ball. It seems like your "telling from tone" skills need some real polishing buddy.
Oh, and just in case you doubt it, please check the page history as well. So far there has been only one edit (changed from the default page, that is) on Feb 15, 2015, so you cannot claim that I edited my profile when I posted this.
I really think I should report you to the Admins for attacking me personally over a difference of opinion when I did absolutely nothing to provoke you, but I'll let it slide for now.
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Uh most of the scans used here were done by a very poorly translationin the early 2000's.
And this is digging way to much. Statements only go so far. Your being a little bit too open minded Antvaism.
And this is digging way to much. Statements only go so far. Your being a little bit too open minded Antvaism.
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Well, I am trying to be a nice and reasonable admin. I still have a bad conscience for having a very bad mood, getting impatient and blocking a few people earlier. I unblocked them rather quickly, but still...
Anyway, we have official statements from Toriyama that Beerus could destroy the Kaioshin realm (which is the size of a galaxy) 75 million years ago, when he was likely much weaker than currently, so multi-galaxy level makes sense to me.
Anyway, we have official statements from Toriyama that Beerus could destroy the Kaioshin realm (which is the size of a galaxy) 75 million years ago, when he was likely much weaker than currently, so multi-galaxy level makes sense to me.
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yup
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Thats still just a statement. Toriyama doesnt know that much abotu power.
If there are no galaxy level feats then there are no feats statments dont mean much.
Kishimoto said that some extremly slow attacks in naruto are light speed even though they are about mach 10 at best.
Once again feats>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>statements.
Dragon ball doesnt have a offical data book that has been studited for correctness and analyzed.
Also alot of these scans that have been showed are done by early scanners that are know for being awfully bad.
If there are no galaxy level feats then there are no feats statments dont mean much.
Kishimoto said that some extremly slow attacks in naruto are light speed even though they are about mach 10 at best.
Once again feats>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>statements.
Dragon ball doesnt have a offical data book that has been studited for correctness and analyzed.
Also alot of these scans that have been showed are done by early scanners that are know for being awfully bad.
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Ok I agree with strap except on piccolo and gotanks and Mabey gohan
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serious, beerus should be at LEAST galaxy level, even if you lowball dbz to 4 regular sized galaxy
but i consider dbz to be regular sized universe having 4 quadrants with 4 administrative galaxies or something
but i consider dbz to be regular sized universe having 4 quadrants with 4 administrative galaxies or something
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Yes, you have posted that several times, but as I have said elsewhere, all of the Dragonball wikis say that the North Galaxy is equivalent to the Milky Way Galaxy, this guidebook says that the Dragonball galaxies contain billions of stars (our galaxy contains 100-200 billion stars),[1] until proven othervise we must assume that the Dragonball nebulas and galaxies are of similar size to our nebulas and galaxies, in this context "infinitely expansive" seems to mean constantly expanding, and no universe is infinite, so that is very likely just a figure of speech to make children understand that a universe is unfathomable large, even one consisting of only 4 galaxies. Again, you need new proof to convince me, not to repeat yourself. Sorry.
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@Antvasima:
Hmm...correct me if I'm wrong, but Beerus isn't stated to be able to one-shot the Kaioshin realm, only destroy it. That would be the same as saying the Buu is a universal threat, yet he cannot one-shot the universe.
Am I on the mark, Antvasima?
Hmm...correct me if I'm wrong, but Beerus isn't stated to be able to one-shot the Kaioshin realm, only destroy it. That would be the same as saying the Buu is a universal threat, yet he cannot one-shot the universe.
Am I on the mark, Antvasima?
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Well, personally I think that Toriyama meant that Beerus could quickly destroy the realm. Considering how vast a galaxy is/the distances involved in destroying it even with a massively faster than lightspeed energy expansion, that is good enough for me. Also, it was 75 million years ago, so he should be considerably more powerful currently. Given the context of the anime evidence, Buu being a universal threat, in my mind means galaxy level, i.e. taking out one of the 4 galaxies at a time.
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I think we should create a seperate page rather than a seperate column, so as to avoid confusion. Like I mention earlier, Son Goku (Dragon Ball GT) should be retitled to Son Goku (Anime). On this page, people are free to powerscale using anime feats.
Sound fair?
Sound fair?
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@XTrap12:
Sorry, but I do not know Spanish. So we'll have to converse in English.
@Antvasima:
We are trying to create an accurate wiki Antvasima, not please fans. If we start trying to please fans, fantards will corrupt this wiki and turn it into a pile of shit.
And just an advice (obtained from painful personal experience): There's no pleasing Dragon Ball fans. EVER.
Note: PM on fanfiction
Sorry, but I do not know Spanish. So we'll have to converse in English.
@Antvasima:
We are trying to create an accurate wiki Antvasima, not please fans. If we start trying to please fans, fantards will corrupt this wiki and turn it into a pile of shit.
And just an advice (obtained from painful personal experience): There's no pleasing Dragon Ball fans. EVER.
Note: PM on fanfiction
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