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Might be not be the best time to make this, but I've noticed a particular problem with calc stacking when it comes to speed that I wanted to make a larger discussion about. I've spoken to some others here about this as well, one being a calc-group member themselves, to get input before making this, who have also expressed some concern about it.
Okay, so, I'll get right into it. The issue I have here is in regards to what's said for speed on the the calc stacking page:
As I've recently learned, statistics like speed are not assumed to be at distinctly different levels in different instances here, under normal circumstances. Rather, they are constants. For instance, if a character demonstrates flight speed great enough to travel across the entire universe in seconds, and the feat gives them MFTL+ flight speed, their use of flight speed in other instances would be taken as them using the same MFTL+ flight speed (or roughly the same). Combat speed is the same in other instances of combat speed, attack speed is the same in other instances of attack speed, etc etc. And for characters who would normally display no signs of purposely altering their own stats for some specific purpose or reason, this is reasonable to think.
Now, here's where the main issue comes up. The ONLY reason why our site considers using calced speed for other feats calc stacking, is because of this idea that a character and their attacks can have varying speeds, as stated so on the calc stacking page. But what im not understanding here is that if we go with the idea that a character's speed is generally the same across the board for that speed type, we are then agreeing that there's no variation in their speed. That they won't have different speed levels, they will normally be the same.
So if that is the case, why wouldn't they be allowed to be used for calculations if they DON'T vary? The speed of Character A in the instance you would go off of to try calculating Character's B's speed would be no different than any other normal instance of Character A's movement and speeds, so there isn't any legitimate reason to say the calculated speed of Character A couldn't be applied. Without speed being normally disproportionate, it goes against what the calc stacking page currently specifies and gives no real justification to say calculated speed can't ever be used.
One explanation that can made for the case of "varied speed" that I've seen written up is something a calc-group member explained to me when I spoke to them about this to get their opinion:
"Looking at the bolded part, I believe what is meant is that characters can sometimes suppress themselves. Let's say Character A can keep up with Character B when Character B is fighting casually, but when Character B fights seriously, they blitz Character A."
If we go off of this idea of when characters suppress themselves, then sure, this is definitely a more reasonable take to use as to why using calculated speeds for other feats do not work. But, having said that, character's purposely limiting themselves isn't a reason to think speeds from character's normally vary. The speeds here, in this case, get altered specifically because of the circumstances that cause the character's speed to fluctuate from what their speed tier normally is. Whether this is because:
-Character's get a powerup that makes their speed faster than it normally is
-Character's get a powerup that makes their speed slower than it normally is
-A character is fatigued from battle, so their speed is slower than normal
-A character is purposely suppressing themselves to fight a weaker opponent
-A character is purposely suppressing themselves to let an opponent win
-A character gets their speed altered by another character
Or something similar that happens, they apply to only specific cases of where a change in speed for a character happens.
After that, comes the only other possible reason to deny calcs that use other character's calculated speeds, that being its "inflated". Only, again, this is also not a universally applicable reason, and to try arguing so is not only unrealistically ludicrous, but also boderline headcanon. Whether a feat can be considered "inflated" or not and then be rendered unusable, is for the series in question to determine here. If they have the necessary evidence and context to support the results, and causes no inconsistencies with their scaling and feats, why reject it simply because of the result being high?
Now, having said this, this leads me to what I think would be a more reasonable solution to implement regarding this.
For situations where one tries using a calculated speed to help find the speed of another character, it should be a case by case basis depending on the given series and the given context. As I've said, the general practice of us not allowing calced speed because of speed alterations is generally fine, and I don't completely disagree with using this justification to dismiss the use of applying calced speeds on other feats. But if we are given a case of a character that's proven to use their average / full speed, has reason to be using their average / full speed, without any known alterations in their stats being known to have happened, then we should be allowed to use their calculated speeds for those instances to calculate the speed of other characters should the latter's do something in relation to the former.
And with that, here we go with the discussion.
Okay, so, I'll get right into it. The issue I have here is in regards to what's said for speed on the the calc stacking page:
- Using speed of characters or attacks calculated at other instances can't be used, as characters and attacks can vary in speed. This is the case regardless of whether the character is seriously trying to do his best or anything similar.
As I've recently learned, statistics like speed are not assumed to be at distinctly different levels in different instances here, under normal circumstances. Rather, they are constants. For instance, if a character demonstrates flight speed great enough to travel across the entire universe in seconds, and the feat gives them MFTL+ flight speed, their use of flight speed in other instances would be taken as them using the same MFTL+ flight speed (or roughly the same). Combat speed is the same in other instances of combat speed, attack speed is the same in other instances of attack speed, etc etc. And for characters who would normally display no signs of purposely altering their own stats for some specific purpose or reason, this is reasonable to think.
Now, here's where the main issue comes up. The ONLY reason why our site considers using calced speed for other feats calc stacking, is because of this idea that a character and their attacks can have varying speeds, as stated so on the calc stacking page. But what im not understanding here is that if we go with the idea that a character's speed is generally the same across the board for that speed type, we are then agreeing that there's no variation in their speed. That they won't have different speed levels, they will normally be the same.
So if that is the case, why wouldn't they be allowed to be used for calculations if they DON'T vary? The speed of Character A in the instance you would go off of to try calculating Character's B's speed would be no different than any other normal instance of Character A's movement and speeds, so there isn't any legitimate reason to say the calculated speed of Character A couldn't be applied. Without speed being normally disproportionate, it goes against what the calc stacking page currently specifies and gives no real justification to say calculated speed can't ever be used.
One explanation that can made for the case of "varied speed" that I've seen written up is something a calc-group member explained to me when I spoke to them about this to get their opinion:
"Looking at the bolded part, I believe what is meant is that characters can sometimes suppress themselves. Let's say Character A can keep up with Character B when Character B is fighting casually, but when Character B fights seriously, they blitz Character A."
If we go off of this idea of when characters suppress themselves, then sure, this is definitely a more reasonable take to use as to why using calculated speeds for other feats do not work. But, having said that, character's purposely limiting themselves isn't a reason to think speeds from character's normally vary. The speeds here, in this case, get altered specifically because of the circumstances that cause the character's speed to fluctuate from what their speed tier normally is. Whether this is because:
-Character's get a powerup that makes their speed faster than it normally is
-Character's get a powerup that makes their speed slower than it normally is
-A character is fatigued from battle, so their speed is slower than normal
-A character is purposely suppressing themselves to fight a weaker opponent
-A character is purposely suppressing themselves to let an opponent win
-A character gets their speed altered by another character
Or something similar that happens, they apply to only specific cases of where a change in speed for a character happens.
After that, comes the only other possible reason to deny calcs that use other character's calculated speeds, that being its "inflated". Only, again, this is also not a universally applicable reason, and to try arguing so is not only unrealistically ludicrous, but also boderline headcanon. Whether a feat can be considered "inflated" or not and then be rendered unusable, is for the series in question to determine here. If they have the necessary evidence and context to support the results, and causes no inconsistencies with their scaling and feats, why reject it simply because of the result being high?
Now, having said this, this leads me to what I think would be a more reasonable solution to implement regarding this.
For situations where one tries using a calculated speed to help find the speed of another character, it should be a case by case basis depending on the given series and the given context. As I've said, the general practice of us not allowing calced speed because of speed alterations is generally fine, and I don't completely disagree with using this justification to dismiss the use of applying calced speeds on other feats. But if we are given a case of a character that's proven to use their average / full speed, has reason to be using their average / full speed, without any known alterations in their stats being known to have happened, then we should be allowed to use their calculated speeds for those instances to calculate the speed of other characters should the latter's do something in relation to the former.
And with that, here we go with the discussion.
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