Umineko Witch domain revision

[Nekobako]

Fragment/Gameboard in Human domain is a representation of a story/world as a fragment.

By viewing the Fragment/Gameboard as a fragment means viewing the entire hierarchy of it as a fragment.
However, Fragment in the Human domain has its own layer such as Higurashi fragment (5D), Hotarubi (4D) and Umineko (4D up to 8D)


According to the context from Memoir of Lambda, Lambda explained about Human level and Witch level that transcended the human level and its territory.
It means that layer within the Human domain and Witch domain are separated by different concept of layer and can be explained like this

• Higher layer in the Witch domain affect the restrictions
• Higher layer in the Human domain doesn't affect the restrictions

(Because higher layer in the Human domain is still bounded by Fragment and Human level so layer in Human domain isn't a part of the Witch domain and the concept of layer for the Witch domain cannot be used for the Human domain.)

Human domain = Higher layer doesn't affect the restriction
Witch domain = Higher layer has lower the restriction
Creator domain = No more restriction

Witch domain cannot reach the Creator domain because Witch still has restriction even in higher layer and Creator views Witch domain as a gameboard/fragment
while Human domain cannot reach the Witch domain because Human is bounded by Human level (Witch transcended the Human level so Witch isn't bound by Human level and can enter the Witch domain) and Witch views Human domain as a gameboard/fragment.


Moreover, layer in Umineko fragment as a gameboard has more added layers (Higher world, Underside of the gameboard) from Normal Fragment (No gamemaster and fantasy being as a piece) but added layer within Human domain doesn't affect the Witch domain because Witch domain still views it as a fragment.
That makes the Witch domain exists outside completely the Human domain and independent from layers including added layers within the Human domain as well.


Summary

1. Human domain has its own layer and there are added layers in Umineko Fragment.
2. Layer and added layers within Human domain cannot reach the Witch domain because those layers are still bounded in the Fragment and Human level.
3. Witch domain transcended the Human domain and still views the entire hierarchy within Human domain just a mere fragment even if there are added layers within the Human domain.


According to Q&A and some example

Q: How can a character be 1-A and above without an infinite-dimensional/infinitely-layered cosmology, then?
A: A good way to accomplish this would be to show that whatever state of being in which they exist is completely independent of the number of layers/dimensions present on the setting. For example, if they are unaffected by dimensions being arbitrarily added or removed from physical space by virtue of transcending it entirely, or if they exist as a "background" or canvas of sorts in which any amount of them can be inserted. This argument generalizes to tiers higher than 1-A as well.

Ex. Character B transcends the world and sees it as fictional and even at this new layer of reality, character A is still above them, not at another layer of the world but rather the whole system of layers/dimensions is inapplicable to them. So, it doesn't matter if character B transcend that layer of reality in the same manner they did before. Their difference stays the same.



Witch domain (Purgatory/Beatrice domain) will be 1-A baseline

 

[Gasper]

Looks fine

 

[Hasty12345]

whilst I agree with the idea of the thread, I am almost certain there are much more thought out arguments with a lot more evidence and whats presented here just isn't enough IMO.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Waiting for a good friend to join.

 

[Darksmash]

This argument doesn't work because all the layers of the human world have special nature and qualities. Like the underside of the gameboard quite literally being the underside of the chessboard from the world of the witches. We cannot extrapolate the fact that these layers can be stacked endlessly in the human domain without breaking into the witch domain and it wouldn't make sense to be so.

Not to mention that it's not stated anywhere that the layers of the human world don't lift these restrictions fractionally. So yeah, I think this argument isnt sufficient for an upgrade.

 

[Darksmash]

According to the context from Memoir of Lambda, Lambda explained about Human level and Witch level that transcended the human level and its territory.
It means that layer within the Human domain and Witch domain are separated by different concept of layer and can be explained like this

• Higher layer in the Witch domain affect the restrictions
• Higher layer in the Human domain doesn't affect the restrictions

Btw those scans don't mean that. It means that one can transcend from the human world to the world of witches but to become a witch they need recognition.

 

[Nekobako]

This argument doesn't work because all the layers of the human world have special nature and qualities. Like the underside of the gameboard quite literally being the underside of the chessboard from the world of the witches. We cannot extrapolate the fact that these layers can be stacked endlessly in the human domain without breaking into the witch domain and it wouldn't make sense to be so.

Not to mention that it's not stated anywhere that the layers of the human world don't lift these restrictions fractionally. So yeah, I think this argument isn't sufficient for an upgrade.

Isn't even endless stacked layers also cannot reach the Witch domain?????

Edit: Can you explain how added higher layer in Human domain able to reach the Witch domain without exist outside of the Fragment?
I don't see that how added layers in the story are able to above the Witch domain which always above the story.

Added layer in Human domain cannot reach the Witch domain because added layer is still bounded by the fragment/story.

So no matter how many added layers inside the book, it's still inside the book and amount of layers inside the Human domain aren't relevant to the Witch domain.

Edit: Trianthology and Higurashi got 1-C just because they exist outside the Fragment which is just 4D or 5D
It doesn't mean that no matter how many layer inside the Fragment, Meta world/Witch domain still above it?

 

[Nekobako]

Bump.


Lambda said that

"The ones tossed about by fate are the humans.
Fools, helpless, can't create anything.
......However, they have a ground to firmly step under their feet.
And that ground will never betray them, thus, they can live their whole existence without the fear of the terror of falling to hell."

while Battler in the Sea of Fragment can fall to hell/depth. it means even a human exists outside of Fragment can fall like a Witch.


So what Lambda said is about the nature of the world of Human.
The world of Human cannot fall to hell because it still have a ground while an added layer (Higher world) inside the world of Human still has the same nature and different from the Witch domain that beyond the world of Human completely.

 

[Darksmash]

Bump.


Lambda said that

"The ones tossed about by fate are the humans.
Fools, helpless, can't create anything.
......However, they have a ground to firmly step under their feet.
And that ground will never betray them, thus, they can live their whole existence without the fear of the terror of falling to hell."

while Battler in the Sea of Fragment can fall to hell/depth. it means even a human exists outside of Fragment can fall like a Witch.


So what Lambda said is about the nature of the world of Human.
The world of Human cannot fall to hell because it still have a ground while an added layer (Higher world) inside the world of Human still has the same nature and different from the Witch domain that beyond the world of Human completely.

That's just bad reading comprehension. The statement is talking about how normal humans have a "ground" under their feet because they do not live an unstable life of a witch. A human that's been brought to higher worlds isn't what that statement was talking about. Also no clue what you are talking about with the Battler example, or the sea of fragments. Or how you switched "humans" to "world of humans".

Edit: Can you explain how added higher layer in Human domain able to reach the Witch domain without exist outside of the Fragment?
I don't see that how added layers in the story are able to above the Witch domain which always above the story.

What does this mean? What are you asking here? I cannot understand. There is no statement that implies layers can be indefinitely stacked in the human domain without breaking into the witch domain.

Added layer in Human domain cannot reach the Witch domain because added layer is still bounded by the fragment/story.

That's just how Umi layers work. In the witch domain all the lower layers below any given layer exist inside a fragment at that layer. But it does not mean you won't reach this layer if you +1 your level of existence on the previous layer.

Edit: Trianthology and Higurashi got 1-C just because they exist outside the Fragment which is just 4D or 5D
It doesn't mean that no matter how many layer inside the Fragment, Meta world/Witch domain still above it?

? What?

 

[AKUTO123]

Agree with op

 

[Railgun]

I agree with the crt but I want to see thoughts of knowledgeable members

 

[Ovy7]

This thread is rushed.

 

[Darksmash]

Also simply using wrong arguments.

 

[AKUTO123]

even tho op just got debunked

Eh ı just read op