Starcraft low tier downgrade (marines, high templars etc.)

[TyphonEX]

This in-verse tier of characters in Starcraft is currently rated at 8-C via High Templars seemingly being capable of vaporizing Zerglings. However, the clip where High Templars allegedly vaporize zerglings only shows them incinerating zerglings, reducing them to ash, rather than vaporizing them. The remains of the zerglings seem to remain visible and not vaporized a while after being hit by the High Templar, all the way up to the point where they're obscured by the dust cloud that's kicked up, so there is no proof that they were actually fully vaporized rather than being reduced to ash. Tl;dr there's no proof that the High Templars can vaporize zerglings

Now, due to this, it would be better to use the "Reducing an Average Human to char" calculation (the current blog utilizes the "average human" end for zerglings) for each of the three zerglings. According to the aforementioned calc, it takes 239,851,203.807 joules or 0.05732581352 tons of TNT to reduce an average human (which we will use in place of the zerglings) to ash. Multiply this by 3 and the High Templar's attack gets a yield of 719,553,611.421 joules or 0.17197744056 tons of TNT (Small building level). This downgraded calculation would apply to High Templars, Marines (Starcraft, obviously), Jim Raynor, Hydralisks, and all the other profiles that scale to the High Templar calc. I can make a blog for this new calculation if that is necessary.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

There's actually a statement where High Templars cause atomic destruction and not just merely vaporize them. Also, it's hard to fully interpret what happens in the clip, but the "Ashes" actually looks more like the dirt underneath the Zerglings got launched.

 

[Diamond_Drone]

Tl;dr there's no proof that the High Templars can vaporize zerglings

Yeah no proof... except for this statement from this In-Universe Manual about Starcraft Units that says that High Templer powers work on the atomic level and can "tear apart molecular structures and shatter the minds of other species". So arguably it should be even higher.

I've already made a blog like years ago trying the fix the assumption that only 1 Zergling was vaporized (there was 4) and assuming a Zergling was the size of a human (it's way bigger).

No, the bigger issue is arguably the scaling, because Hydralisks scale to the High Templar with a feat that probably doesn't exist and then Marines scale to the Hydra's (with a feat done by the General right after every other Marine died in just 2 shots, so they probably shouldn't even scale to that either) and that leads to Zerglings scaling to Marines with a feat that doesn't have any issues. This stills causes a scaling chain that makes Zerglings scale to a High Templar that vaporizes/atomizes multiple Zerglings.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Yeah, I don't think every single unit should scale from High Templar's feat tbh. And there has been quite a bit of reverse scaling being proposed in the past but @Not_Icarus was also someone who worked hard on gathering feats and it later ended in a division that never got included.

 

[Diamond_Drone]

Actually, I do have a feat that I haven't uploaded yet which gives Marines Small Building level for the starting mission for SC2 WOL, which would be supported by them being able to destroy hellions in the following mission.

I also remember there being a feat of Marines being able to harm Overlords or at least some discussion about it? That is also Small Building level and somewhat closer to where they are currently scaled.

Marines should be 8-C with Magrail Munitions though, given that it's shared with the Marauders in Covert Ops who should scale to this Reaper Blast from the comic.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Oh, how typical! Ya'll care for this thread but not the rework of every unit!

sigh

 

[Not_Icarus]

I got an 8-B Stalker calc but yeah I'd prefer a versewide rework instead of just randomly touching some unit pages right now.

 

[TyphonEX]

Yeah no proof... except for this statement from this In-Universe Manual about Starcraft Units that says that High Templer powers work on the atomic level and can "tear apart molecular structures and shatter the minds of other species". So arguably it should be even higher.

I've already made a blog like years ago trying the fix the assumption that only 1 Zergling was vaporized (there was 4) and assuming a Zergling was the size of a human (it's way bigger).

No, the bigger issue is arguably the scaling, because Hydralisks scale to the High Templar with a feat that probably doesn't exist and then Marines scale to the Hydra's (with a feat done by the General right after every other Marine died in just 2 shots, so they probably shouldn't even scale to that either) and that leads to Zerglings scaling to Marines with a feat that doesn't have any issues. This stills causes a scaling chain that makes Zerglings scale to a High Templar that vaporizes/atomizes multiple Zerglings.

Disrupting molecular structures is a good feat, yes, but it's fallacious to argue that this statement proves that what happened in the clip is the complete disruption of the ENTIRE zergling. This whole line of argumentation is "High Templar attacks can vaporize molecular structures of unspecified size, therefore the High Templar vaporized 3 ENTIRE zerglings in this clip." This is an example of the fallacy of composition. The fact still is that there is no proof that, in the clip, High Templars vaporize the entire bodies of three zerglings.

Also, it's hard to fully interpret what happens in the clip, but the "Ashes" actually looks more like the dirt underneath the Zerglings got launched.

No, not really. I'm talking about the glowing ashes which are the remains of the zerglings' bodies themselves. We can see a zergling here, which in the very next two frames is incinerated turned into glowing blue stuff by the High Templar's attack. If you follow the next few frames, (such as the blue stuff changing colors and becoming the orange stuff) the you can see that the glowing sparks in the frames that I posted in OP are just the incinerated matter of the zergling's body rather than dirt underneath the Zerglings. Here's a bunch of the frames in sequence to demonstrate the continuity between the zerglings and their incinerated remains. All this demonstrates that the zerglings weren't actually vaporized.

 

[Not_Icarus]

I'm pretty confident about it. Even Stalkers and Dragoons can atomize people to death and we get an inferior version of their weapons annihilate a spectre and the wall behind him in The Keep. Dragoon does something similar but against more enemies in the Shadow of the Xel'Naga novel iirc. Psi storm varies from relatively small room sized aoe attack that can knock out/ destroy electronics and enemies shown in the Frontline comics to planet destroying wide scales as shown in the Queen of Blades novel.

Also btw, a single High Templar in Shadow of the Xel'Naga are shown to be capable of doing genuine damage to a battlecruiser with psi storm so make of that what you will

But yeah I'd prefer you don't talk about this here as we already have an ongoing revision thread going on

 

[TyphonEX]

I'm pretty confident about it. Even Stalkers and Dragoons can atomize people to death and we get an inferior version of their weapons annihilate a spectre and the wall behind him in The Keep. Dragoon does something similar but against more enemies in the Shadow of the Xel'Naga novel iirc. Psi storm varies from relatively small room sized aoe attack that can knock out/ destroy electronics and enemies shown in the Frontline comics to planet destroying wide scales as shown in the Queen of Blades novel.

Also btw, a single High Templar in Shadow of the Xel'Naga are shown to be capable of doing genuine damage to a battlecruiser with psi storm so make of that what you will

But yeah I'd prefer you don't talk about this here as we already have an ongoing revision thread going on

So I should just save the discussion about this for after that thread concludes right?

 

[Not_Icarus]

Honestly, probably. We're still discussing stuff like size and AP for the heavy tiers. Like finding a replacement for the leviathan calc ap results currently. Friend of mine promised me to get some results of battlecruiser ramming which is useable as the battlecruiser white star was able to survive it and stay functional.

We already have the old nydus worm ap calc approved from years ago and I'm still waiting to this day for someone to notice my other 2 8-B calc requests/blogs. Easy lower end scaling for infantry is 9-B via Hydralisk bite force statements. Currently the only useable and approved infantry calc is only the nydus worm calc as the rest were never approved and noticed as far as I'm aware. I plan to likely make many of the infantry to light/medium units as "At least 9-B, possibly/likely 8-B."

 

[CNBA3]

Question about Ultralisks, why does it scale to Nukes? I heard some sources where Terran Nukes are kiloton worthy, though it could vary as when calculating a blast from orbit it is 1 gigaton. There are other sources where a Void Ray killed 24 Ultralisks through an unstable attack and one by a concentration of Siege Tanks

 

[DaReaperMan]

Question about Ultralisks, why does it scale to Nukes? I heard some sources where Terran Nukes are kiloton worthy, though it could vary as when calculating a blast from orbit it is 1 gigaton. There are other sources where a Void Ray killed 24 Ultralisks through an unstable attack and one by a concentration of Siege Tanks

One of the Starcraft II evolution missions has Mengsk nuking ultralisks and it didn't work

 

[CNBA3]

One of the Starcraft II evolution missions has Mengsk nuking ultralisks and it didn't work

Oh I remember that, what I mean is, why would that be the deciding factor compare to Ultralisks dying to a void ray or sieve tanks.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Oh I remember that, what I mean is, why would that be the deciding factor compare to Ultralisks dying to a void ray or sieve tanks.

I mean, Void Rays are a part of the purification fleets, so they're well beyond the majority of nuked anyway, and Siege tanks=Immortals who were considered sufficient to battle Hybrid by Artanis

Aka, neither of the examples are really good

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I recently replayed StarCraft II to refresh my memory, and yeah. Ultralisk being able to tank a nuke and literally evolve into Torrasque. Likewise, in the Heart of the Swarm trailer, Ultralisks were shown to be pretty much invulnerable to Siege tanks and could crush them just by stepping on them.

And I recall that previous thread that was never concluded and there was a lengthy argument about whether Psionic Energy was a Universal Energy System as opposed to limited or non-physical. Which based on the story, it appears rather limited for Terran Ghosts/Spectres. But Zerg Hiveminds and Protoss have more Universal evidence. The physical potency of various Zerg units are basically dependent on the Psionic power of the Hivemind/Leaders. Kerrigan for example uses Psionic Energy to amplify the power, speed, and durability of her swarm from Zerglings to Ultralisks. And she also uses the same system to amplify her own physical characteristics as well. Which means her Telekinetic and Psionic storm powers are interlinked to her physical strength that she can also share with her minions to an extent.

 

[Not_Icarus]

I still wish my calc buddy didn't just dissapear on me since he has the crucial editor data for more tier 6 calcs like 1 kilometer battlecruiser ramming

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Hard disagree with this one.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I still wish my calc buddy didn't just dissapear on me since he has the crucial editor data for more tier 6 calcs like 1 kilometer battlecruiser ramming

Diamond Drone?

 

[Not_Icarus]

No, it's someone else that doesn't use a versus wiki account and gave me the marine model values for the baneling 8-b calc. Although while he can calc, he's not the one who did that Baneling calc actually as I asked Dark-Carioca to do that for me since he actually has an account that does calc blogs.

A small calc of his I actually posted here before was an 8-b atomization feat from a Terran reversed engineered phase disruptor based on Protoss weapons that units like dragoons use.

Another calc result I got in storage is more solid mhs+ StarCraft with his quick sketch of the shakuras explosion which resulted in 1700 mhs+ Artanis teleportation reaction speeds. I gave out the rough numbers and image to others since he said that it's incomplete and didn't have stuff like planet curvature. Other folks finished it for me and got the mach 1700 result.