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Regarding OP and the Opposition, I'm split between both viewpoints. Some scans support what OP is claiming, while some of the points Primehydra brought up support the Opposition’s stance. Also, from what I’ve seen, the Tensura setup is similar to Bleach's cosmology. So, some worlds might qualify for Low 2-C, while others are of unknown size, I think.
In the worst-case scenario, I believe a rating of At least Low 2-C, likely or possibly 2-C is guaranteed.
However, one thing I wholeheartedly agree with OP on is that the 2-A rating for the cycle of time should be removed. It's pretty clearly stated that if parallel universes existed, then two versions of the same person could coexist at the same time. But the fact that Chloe was disappearing when her past self was about to enter the same universe shows that it's not a case of different universes splitting off whenever the past is altered, but rather the timeline is being overwritten. Mask is just an exception, as the scan itself points out.
Another "nuke the verse cuz I don't like it" thread
Anyways I agree with prime, its clear a different space or larger space contains the universes/dimensions and from the way this thread is, it's clear it's biased and thinks theory>actual feat or statement
Never was it implied that I'm doing this cause I don't like the verse, I love the verse, it's just getting way too many wanks so I had to pop in and see for myself. What started my journey down this road was seeing the Weaker than Solar System Anti-feat, but that's not what this CRT is about.
And the fact OP only brings statement from vol11 or 12 is something, so we just gonna ignore otherworlds, worlds larger than universe, different timelines and many worlds created by veldanava
But I didn't, I even mentioned Volume 16 and 17 arguments and explained all that in the OP and the replies. Never disputed that there are different timelines and many "worlds". Also, worlds larger than universes is not necessarily a refutation since the main problem is the size of these "universes" which is called into question.
I think this is a very Mute point, considering the biggest flaw in accepting these spaces as universes, is that we explicitly have reason to believe they are not consistently the size of an observable universe.
The size of these spaces must be able to reach the size of 93 billion light-years wide, which I have yet to see anyone prove the sizes of these spaces reach that size.
So it's great you have all this supporting evidence, but when the point of contention is the size, which I feel isn't even needing to be discussed since it was already accepted that there's no confirmed size, then focus on trying to prove size. And if these Dimensions are called universes, but all greatly vary in size and would still be called Universes, then size isn't a defining factor in TenSura to qualify to be called such.
Saying that they have no confirmed size also means that they are a likely or a possibly rating. Also, considering the large amount of evidence that it is Fuse's intention to show that multiple universes/worlds so that shows they have a multiverse but not MWI. and the Wiki basically runs on if it looks, acts and functions like it then it is either it is or it possibly is. And from my post on the nature of these worlds/universes they tick off multiple criteria.
At the end of the day, you can give out any supporting evidence for space/times and them being "Universes" but if you can't definitively prove their size, then every piece of evidence brought forward, is just unusable. So until we get a genuine confirmation that the dimensions are the size of the universe, there should be nothing that proves these are the size of our universe, therefor the Verse can't qualify as a multiverse under that understanding.
But hey, Maybe volume 23 changes thing, it was already put into question in vol22 about the light spheres, maybe there's a chance that the spaces can be confirmed or proven to be the size of our universe.
Yeah but you can't prove them all to be smaller than a universe either. And I am not saying that every single time world is used means universe, just the other dimensional worlds/dimensions/space-times. There are also times where world has been used to describe the ''otherworld'' which is akin to outerspace so that also disproves that those other worlds are just planets.
Yeah Volume 23 should give clarification especially since it would be about Ivarage and their goal to devour each world to reach the All In One.
Never was it implied that I'm doing this cause I don't like the verse, I love the verse, it's just getting way too many wanks so I had to pop in and see for myself. What started my journey down this road was seeing the Weaker than Solar System Anti-feat, but that's not what this CRT is about.
But I didn't, I even mentioned Volume 16 and 17 arguments and explained all that in the OP and the replies. Never disputed that there are different timelines and many "worlds". Also, worlds larger than universes is not necessarily a refutation since the main problem is the size of these "universes" which is called into question.
Bring the raws of your argument on why you think World is smaller than Universe, including vol 21, Ciel's statement about The Cardinal World's Universe (The Cardinal World's Universe has long ended, but World still exist, and time passed by reaching the End of the World).
It is directly stated in the Vol 21 about this thing. If only you have the eyes and properly read it, you might have already understood ts. Rather than skipping vol 21 and using 22 to try and support your claims
Not many people dispute the contention with the 2-A rating using the time cycle, but many have been having major contentions with the "Not multiversal " Part.
OP
Points brought up in support of the OP are as followed;
The fact that jumping from subspace can lead you to jumping into the end of "the" universe, and that the space/time storm was equivalent to the start of "the" universe.
The classification of the word "universe" doesn't necessarily entail a universal sized space considering the vast difference in size between the dimensions that have already been made aware in prior CRT's and in this thread.
Calls to question the translation of a few lines that have been apparently accepted by the translator team due to wanting to discuss context of the lines.
Time it takes to conquer a dimension would likely support the notion these spaces are not that grand in size due to it only requiring tens of thousands of years at most.
Yuuki's credibility in terms of calling them universes put into question a he was already corrected by the narrative once on his ability to ascertain time flow in subspace, and the limited amount of information he has to come to conclusion that the light spheres are universes or perhaps its a possibility it's a universe or a world.
The otherworlds could be in reference to the planets velgrynd transfered to considering she went to landmasses/continents and kingdoms implied to sit on planets. Definitely loose use of the word "other world" here.
I believe that is pretty much the main points in support.
Opposition
Points brought up in opposition are as followed;
Clear issues regarding OTL and certain translations. (Need a translator in this thread badly!)
The spaces check off multiple boxes for being low 2-C such as, being called a universe, having or being called a timeline, being called a space/time continuum, and stated the be separated by barries of time and space.
They exist in an overarching space, subspace, which encompasses all of these spaces.
Yuuki is a genius who should have high credibility in regards to the cosmology.
Other Worlds are implied to be universes considering the difference in laws and the classification of "interstellar world" supporting being more grand than a planet.
@PrimeHydra64 Let me know if I missed a point, was trying to do this on phone on my way to work.
Separated by Dimensional Walls/Barriers (needs translation)
Encompassed by a larger structure (the place where Yuuki and Mai saw the universe/world expand then disappear.)
Directly called a timeline/space-time (translation needed)
Direct statement of worlds being universes as well as those worlds behaving like what has been mentioned above.
''Many'' Worlds that Veldanava created
Transcend ''Time and Space'' to reach these other worlds.
Wiki's rules on universes.
These are notes that the worlds are indeed universes; while they don't need all of these, at least one of them should indicate this.
If they are outright called universes or stated to be the size of universes by a reliable source, they should be considered universes.
If the size of the realms described has having infinite sizes or other synonyms, that should strongly indicate them being universes.
If they are outright stated to be completely separated by the barriers of time and space and either stated or shown to be reasonable in size, such as having countless galaxies, then they should indeed be universes.
If they're flat out stated to be entire timelines, then they are indeed alternate universes.
Being labeled as "Entire Alternate Realities" generally indicates them being called universes, but the context and semantics should preferably be specified.
If they're stated to mirror "The Universe" or "Our Universe" or "The Real World", they would refer to being universes.
If there is shown to be a collection of multiple alternate worlds/dimensions that are either stated to be parallel and/or there are visual depictions resembling each of those worlds/dimensions to be metaphorically similar to each other (Such as bubbles or other structures that appear similar in size), and most importantly, at least one of those individual worlds/dimensions has shown enough evidence to consider them a Universe level+ sized spacetime continuum, then the conclusion is to consider all of those individual worlds/dimensions universes and that the entire collection is a multiverse.
Separation of these universes.
A larger space encompasses all the universes or space-times
This space is of a higher dimensional nature.
Space-Time Qualifications
It is explicitly stated to be a "Space-time continuum" or something equivalent.
It fulfills the standards for being a universe-sized realm (see the first section of this page) and all of its time is also involved in its feat. I.e. the structure involved in the feat is the timeline of an entire universe.
Need to sleep so I won't be able respond to the thread. There is more stuff but Ill do that when I'm awake. And if we are not sure on the size of them despite all of these characteristics put a likely or possibly option seeing as there is more than enough evidence to suggest that there is more than one universe and those other worlds being those universes.
And actually finally, if the yuuki quote is an ''outlier'' is a hot topic remember that it was included in the latest volume as a wrap up towards the ''alleged'' final volume of tensura.
I think this is a very Mute point, considering the biggest flaw in accepting these spaces as universes, is that we explicitly have reason to believe they are not consistently the size of an observable universe.
The size of these spaces must be able to reach the size of 93 billion light-years wide, which I have yet to see anyone prove the sizes of these spaces reach that size.
So it's great you have all this supporting evidence, but when the point of contention is the size, which I feel isn't even needing to be discussed since it was already accepted that there's no confirmed size, then focus on trying to prove size. And if these Dimensions are called universes, but all greatly vary in size and would still be called Universes, then size isn't a defining factor in TenSura to qualify to be called such.
At the end of the day, you can give out any supporting evidence for space/times and them being "Universes" but if you can't definitively prove their size, then every piece of evidence brought forward, is just unusable. So until we get a genuine confirmation that the dimensions are the size of the universe, there should be nothing that proves these are the size of our universe, therefor the Verse can't qualify as a multiverse under that understanding.
But hey, Maybe volume 23 changes thing, it was already put into question in vol22 about the light spheres, maybe there's a chance that the spaces can be confirmed or proven to be the size of our universe.
To start this off, yes I'm aware of the click bait type title, but I am 100% confident in saying that and proving why, and to preface, this is my FIRST forum post, so If i need to work on some things or change things for the future, let me know and I'll fix that up! Also I don't know who to tag for this.
I also want to say that I'm unaware how much is accepted in this wiki when it comes to the cosmology of the Tensura verse, however since Veldanava still has a 2A rating, I assume the multiversal tier is still accepted for the verse.
My main contention with the verse starts at this blog, which I assume was accepted at least most of it. I only want to focus on the main parts that "prove" it's a multiverse.
The biggest problems plaguing this article is that it is grossly misleading and ignores major context of volume 11 chapter 5 of the light novel.
Time loops/cycles
Before I critique the blog/article, I want to first talk about the goal of chapter 5 in volume 11
Goal: Save Hinata and Rimuru
Chloe's time loops tended to all work out in somewhat similar fashion, although there would often be disparities here and there. Apparently, the death of Hinata was always the key event, and the same was true this time as well.
This time as well…? I die every single go-round, don't I?
…
Up to now, every time loop involved Rimuru leavıng everyone's life for one reason or another. This time, however, he was still intact when the jump happened. Hinata knew that, and therefore, she expected this to conclude in some new, different way. There were a lot of differences from before, and--as Hinata decided -maybe they'd be able to Put an end to Chloe's looping for good.
"...You know him. You can't help but hold out hope, no matter how illogical, that he'll figure something out.”
"Right? So if We can get back to that time period, Rimuru will still be there. This time, I'm sure we can all survive-and we need to figure out who keeps killing him and you!
Page 314/315
So that sets a pretty simple goal, fix the timeline, save Rimuru and Hinata.
Now that should've told people that the main reason behind the looping, and Hinata brought up the point;
Otherwise, you’d have multiple versions of yourself across multiple worlds, and everything Hinata and her friends were doing was inherently pointless. The idea that she’d find salvation in some worlds and doom in others wasn’t something Hinata was willing to accept. That’s why she wanted to end Chloe’s looping and save the world for good this time—even if meant sacrificing herself along the way.
Page 324
Now the blog claimed this was an appeal to emotion, but that doesn't really matter nor does it hold and I'll explain that in a bit, so let's dive into the main argument.
There's one main parts I want to focus on, "...but each of these pasts is a completely different timeline..."
Now, when you first look at the chapter and read it, this claim is convincing, but that completely ignores a key piece of context that was confirmed, and that is that Chloe has been looping in the same timeline/axis.
So Hinata silently listened as Chloe continued. Apparently, her time travel always took place in the same era, in the same axis of time those were likely the limitations of her skill. Exactly where she was taken depended on the timing of her out-of-control episodes.
Page 312
Now when regarding these "separate timelines" claim, it doesn't necessarily mean that it's a parallel universe that exists now because of the looping, but just referring to a cycle/loop that did happen, but doesn't exist anymore.
There are statements that refer to these timelines just as the cycles or loops themselves, not as separate timelines;
I think that's sufficient. That proves that volume 11 refers to them specifically as Loops or cycles, however in volume 12, they were referred to as timelines;
We already know Chloe/Chronoa was looping in the same timeline, so the second quote is just referring to a cycle/loop. The first quote also refers to a loop, since we know rimuru's death occurred when Chloe was looping in the same axis of time;
So Hinata silently listened as Chloe continued. Apparently, her time travel always took place in the same era, in the same axis of time—those were likely the limitations of her skill. Exactly where she was taken depended on the timing of her out-of-control episodes.
In the previous cycle, Hinata apparently died in the Forest of Jura.
...
"Mr. Tempest had died, and Veldora got revived—"
"Huh? Rimuru died? Who did it and how? He’s practically unkillable."
"Um, well, with this cycle, my memories between when I received myself in the Dwelling and when I get taken to the past are working out pretty differently. In fact, this is actually the first time Rimuru was still alive when it happened to me."
Page 312
So clearly timeline just refers to these loops, so bringing up statements like this;
…!! A new possibility has arisen. If the powers of the unique skill Time Travel, when merged with the ultimate skill Yog-Sothoth, allow the subject Chloe Aubert to control time itself…then Analyze and Assess will always fail, since it cannot evaluate phenomena separate from its own time line.
Page 77
Doesn't prove the existence of a separate universe or space/time that's parallel to this in terms of being a completely different "timeline".
This is consistent when we take into consideration about what Chapter 5 in volume 11 is trying to prove.
Single World Theory
The next step is to prove that the cosmology follows Single world theory as opposed to Many world interpretation or a multiversal theory.
In the blog, this is stated;
The user most likely stated this, with no valid evidence to support that it was confirmed. If fuse is referencing these theories, then surely he'd confirm the multiverse theory being correct right? Right?
Well he does the opposite. In volume 11 chapter 5, Hinata and Chloe are brainstorming theories regarding their situation and what could or could not be true. That's why they are saying IF multiverse theory is correct then two Chloes existing doesn't cause any issues and both can be at the same time, but that's just not the case.
If advanced theories about multiverses were true, and there are parallel universes for every plane of existence, then maybe two Chloes at once would be all right—but what if there weren’t?
Page 324
So is it possible for two Chloes to exist? No;
And let's not forget what caused this whole thing;
-and the next moment, Hinata's body began to glow, the light seemingly flowing into Chloe through her fingers. Was I seeing this right? Because not even Luminus was reacting at all. It was like time was stopping...
"N-no!" chloe screamed. "This can't be happening! it's too early! Why?!"
"Uh, Chloe?"
The moment I tried calling for Chloe...she vanished, almost like she was never there at all.
Volume 11, chapter 4-page 288
So it's clear that two Chloes cannot exist in the same time. This should eliminate the multiverse theory being true, as opposed to the single world theory, right?
In fact, it's confirmed that Hinata's theory, which is;
Instead, the idea of the world being remade was more tangible.
Volume 11, chapter 5-page 324
Is correct, in fact it did so four separate occasions;
The theory was confirmed three times by a third person narrative explanation, no character pov, and second by Luminus herself, a third party perspective.
This should confirm without a shadow of a doubt, that Hinata's theory of the world being remade, as opposed to a multiverse existing, is the truth to the cosmology.
Even if you decide to bring up the fallacy in the blog;
This should be completely disputed by the fact that the theory was proven true.
Her emotion was a valid response, since the whole goal of trying to correct the timeline, would make no sense if there were parallel worlds where those cycles existed and it was true.
But here's the biggest issue-
Velgrynd's Interdimensional Journey
In volume 17, chapter 2, we get a story on Velgrynd's journey throughout the universe, depends if you take the OTL as truth, between dimensions that DO in fact exist.
Volume 16 sort of gives us a teaser about these other dimensions which house "parallel worlds";
Then, at long last, humanity was born, its fate interlocked with a parallel world in another dimension.
Page 13
Now the term "parallel worlds" is later disputed and replaced with the term, "other world";
This proves the consistency of Parallel worlds not existing in replacement of "Other worlds", so it's proven that other worlds exist in these alternate/isolated or "self-enclosed" dimensions.
The biggest problem facing my premise, is the existence of these dimensions since they were stated and implied to be disconnected temporally and spatially, which would imply they are completely separate space/times.
But that can't be, right? Volume 11 states and confirms that single world theory is the truth, so other space/times shouldn't exist right? Well, it's still not a multiverse.
The existence of separate space/times DO NOT confirm a multiverse since the entire point of the Universe level tiering systems, one has to prove the size of these space/times as universal.
The reason why I bring this up is because the tiering system specifically mentions that in order to be considered a universal level tier, you have to have a universe level sized space or space/time in order for you to qualify for said tiers. Even if the multiverse tier doesn't specify, how can you jump from one tier to the next without qualifying for the terminology of a previous tier?
If that was the case, me creating five office sized space/time continuums would be enough for low multiversal. Obviously that isn't the case, unless that somehow was changed.
So we first need to figure out the size of these space/times in order to even qualify the verse as multiversal, and the issue is, there is no confirmed size of dimensions, and this wiki already agreed to this in the TenSura LN Major Misleading Revision - Part 3 As far as I'm aware.
So in light of that, do I really need to continue? Well, I'll throw a bone to the community with this, we know at least ONE of these dimensions hold a galactic empire, which more or less confirms at least a galaxy sized space in order for that to be the case;
There was a fleet commander serving a galactic empire.
Page 64
So galaxy sized being the largest is, good I guess!
I also would like to address the use of volume 22 where Yuuki states that the light spheres were universes;
"Hmm, I've been observing it for a while and noticed something, didn't that rainbow-colored sphere
swell up and disappear there earlier? I think that's probably one world, a universe."
"Universe?"
"One world—..."
Page 208
The issue with this, is it's just guesswork.
Yuuki also hypothesized that time didn't flow in the subspace but then was later corrected by the narrative;
"It seems like even time doesn't flow in this place."
"Huh?"
"Eh?"
This is the answer to Laplace's question from earlier. Yuuki isn't sure, but there's no other way to
explain it.
...
Strictly speaking, time does flow. However, since there's no way to observe it, Yuuki guesses that
"time doesn't flow" or "it flows very slowly" based on his own fatigue level and the fact that he
doesn't get hungry. Yuuki can't interfere with the "information particles" and can't observe them.
So everything is just guesswork...
Page 208/209
So utilizing Yuuki as a credible source isn't reasonable as it was already proven that he doesn't actually know.
I also want to point out that not once in the entire series, other than mistranslations, has a statement inferred the existence of multiple universes. So I'll address those and other claims.
Addressing Contradictory Statement
The only one I know I need to address is this;
This the OTL version of the infamous slime reader translation of;
So which is correct?
The kanji used is Uchū宇宙 which can mean universe, cosmos or space.
In both translations, the kanji is translated fine, however their meanings are completely different. So when it comes to what it means, we have to figure out what it translates to using the context we already know;
There are no other universes since the verse cannot be a multiverse proven in volume 11.
We know the existence of alternate dimensions which is where Cornu and the rest of the mystics are from.
We know they were setting up outposts in space, in volume 17, chapter 2, they were targeting the earth.
Other universes were never stated in the entire series.
I lean towards the Otl being more accurate except for the use of "universe". In context, this should just be regarding the dimension that the mystics came from since that was already made known in volume 16;
Once, there was another dimension, but one of the other three had destroyed them and the dimension they came from-
Page 11
So this "universe" in volume 17 can be replaced by Dimension since we have that already confirmed to be the place where Mystics, Cryptid and even Insectors came from.
Considering what @Apotheosis69 Translated "宇宙は広いが、異界ほどではない." To = "The universe is incredibly vast, but not as vast as other worlds."
Couldn't this equally be translated to = "Space is incredibly vast, but not as vast as other worlds."?
The reason I ask this, is because those two sentences, although using the same kanji, mean vastly different things.
So now the other context comes into play.
The term "Universe" cannot be applied because, like I've already discussed and brought to question, there cannot be other universes existing due to what volume 11, chapter 5, confirms. The only terms used in the series to referred to these spaces that other worlds exist in are dimensions, not universes. Not only that, but there is never a single statement in the series, other than vol 22 from what Yuuki guessed, that implies the existence of multiple universes.
So at best this is a mistranslation by not only Slime Reader, the OTL but the vsbw translator as well, and at worst this is a outlier statement. I lean towards being a mistranslation considering the fact that the OTL uses a correct translation of the word Uchū宇宙, but also uses the word "universe" instead of dimension or "Other world" since either could be used and is backed by context.
If I missed any other statements that contradict this, let me know.
Conclusion
So simply put, the verse cannot be a multiverse considering what Volume 11, chapter 5, was written to achieve and explain. Volume 17 doesn't dispute this interpretation since it never added information that would contradict there not being other universes or prove it's a multiverse.
Following the evidence and Arguments I set forth, the Cosmology would essentially be the Subspace encompassing many dimensions that are self-enclosed or isolated/alternate. These dimensions vary in size all the way up to the size of a galaxy. They each have their own time axis or flow of time disconnected from other dimensions or space/times, and are governed by separate laws. Inside each dimension, there are unknown amount of worlds/planets, stars and celestial bodies. In the main Space/time, we have the Cardinal world, which is a planet (Yes I'm willing to discuss this but that's not the topic), where the series takes place.
So the following pages/profiles will need to be revised if this gets accepted;
Add me at disagree. Discussed it with sum JP people and they agree with FTL being more accurate than OTL, which changes the entire context of something
Also as I said earlier bring out the raws for point on why Worlds<Universe in Tensura(I want the raws, including Ciel's statement about "The Cardinal World's Universe has ended, but the World still hasn't. And from there we continued drifting till we reached the End of the World)
Not many people dispute the contention with the 2-A rating using the time cycle, but many have been having major contentions with the "Not multiversal " Part.
OP
Points brought up in support of the OP are as followed;
The fact that jumping from subspace can lead you to jumping into the end of "the" universe, and that the space/time storm was equivalent to the start of "the" universe.
The classification of the word "universe" doesn't necessarily entail a universal sized space considering the vast difference in size between the dimensions that have already been made aware in prior CRT's and in this thread.
Calls to question the translation of a few lines that have been apparently accepted by the translator team due to wanting to discuss context of the lines.
Time it takes to conquer a dimension would likely support the notion these spaces are not that grand in size due to it only requiring tens of thousands of years at most.
Yuuki's credibility in terms of calling them universes put into question a he was already corrected by the narrative once on his ability to ascertain time flow in subspace, and the limited amount of information he has to come to conclusion that the light spheres are universes or perhaps its a possibility it's a universe or a world.
The otherworlds could be in reference to the planets velgrynd transfered to considering she went to landmasses/continents and kingdoms implied to sit on planets. Definitely loose use of the word "other world" here.
I believe that is pretty much the main points in support.
Opposition
Points brought up in opposition are as followed;
Clear issues regarding OTL and certain translations. (Need a translator in this thread badly!)
The spaces check off multiple boxes for being low 2-C such as, being called a universe, having or being called a timeline, being called a space/time continuum, and stated the be separated by barries of time and space.
They exist in an overarching space, subspace, which encompasses all of these spaces.
Yuuki is a genius who should have high credibility in regards to the cosmology.
Other Worlds are implied to be universes considering the difference in laws and the classification of "interstellar world" supporting being more grand than a planet.
@PrimeHydra64 Let me know if I missed a point, was trying to do this on phone on my way to work.
Because of the contention of sizes for these so called "universes". If the size isnt a factor in being called a universe, then we need to figure out the size of these spaces and whether they can qualify to be actual universal in size to even scratch the Low 2-C rating.
And yes, me and Hydra have been the most vocal. You and Eldemade have also been pretty vocal, but not to the extent as us. And you haven't really added any new piece of evidence that Hydra hasn't brought forward.
Because of the contention of sizes for these so called "universes". If the size isnt a factor in being called a universe, then we need to figure out the size of these spaces and whether they can qualify to be actual universal in size to even scratch the Low 2-C rating.
And yes, me and Hydra have been the most vocal. You and Eldemade have also been pretty vocal, but not to the extent as us. And you haven't really added any new piece of evidence that Hydra hasn't brought forward.
Brother, A Universe is a Universe no matter what size it is, that includes the aspect of it expanding infinitly. It is a 4 Dimensional(it is literally stated in volume 13 or something about transcending time and space/ts means you transcend the traditional size of infinity. If you know what Aleph or higher infinity is then you should already know that you can dwarf an infinity)structure unless of course you are saying that a Universe is just a 3D space(that thing only applies for the inside of the universe for it's spatial dimension), which wrong since the one that is being stated here is outside the Universe.
Never was it implied that I'm doing this cause I don't like the verse, I love the verse, it's just getting way too many wanks so I had to pop in and see for myself. What started my journey down this road was seeing the Weaker than Solar System Anti-feat, but that's not what this CRT is about.
But I didn't, I even mentioned Volume 16 and 17 arguments and explained all that in the OP and the replies. Never disputed that there are different timelines and many "worlds". Also, worlds larger than universes is not necessarily a refutation since the main problem is the size of these "universes" which is called into question.
Getting to much wank? Show me when or where has tensura ever gotten wanked(unless you mean wanks by those who didn't read the LN) more than their 2A Cosmo in VSB, ignoring previous tier 1.
And asking size of the universe kinda sounds meh since it's stated to be a literal universe, that's like questioning if a square is actually a square. Ignoring if all worlds are actually the same size nuking the verse cuz the universes mentioned are not actually " size of a universe" doesn't work that way. We have subspace, space, different timelines, worlds (which are bigger than actual universe) the universe and dimensions which supposedly contains worlds
Never was it implied that I'm doing this cause I don't like the verse, I love the verse, it's just getting way too many wanks so I had to pop in and see for myself. What started my journey down this road was seeing the Weaker than Solar System Anti-feat, but that's not what this CRT is about.
But I didn't, I even mentioned Volume 16 and 17 arguments and explained all that in the OP and the replies. Never disputed that there are different timelines and many "worlds". Also, worlds larger than universes is not necessarily a refutation since the main problem is the size of these "universes" which is called into question.
Solar system feat was in no way an anti- feat
Since we already have TD level chars who are comparable TD who can blow ups worlds and ivarage who is comparable to TD and can blow up the cardinal world. And it seems you didn't really read the novel cuz if you did you will realize no char can actually one shot the cardinal world because of veldanava blessings and shenanigans.
"the size of the universe" how ironic, so we should start checking the size of a universe, Galaxy and solar system and going by your logic, how would you know the solar system feat is actually a solar system?
Also as I said earlier bring out the raws for point on why Worlds<Universe in Tensura(I want the raws, including Ciel's statement about "The Cardinal World's Universe has ended, but the World still hasn't. And from there we continued drifting till we reached the End of the World)
The issue with this, is the raws wouldnt be necessary for majority of what I listed since its based on interpreting the already known english version, not whether the translation was correct or not.
Also, the universe was never destroyed, it simply ended. This references the Heat Death theory, but the universe is still intact, thats why they say the world isnt destroyed merely ended.
It is a 4 Dimensional(it is literally stated in volume 13 or something about transcending time and space/ts means you transcend the traditional size of infinity. If you know what Aleph or higher infinity is then you should already know that you can dwarf an infinity)structure
That is so not how cardinality works. For one generic space-time transcendence statements do not mean much without more context. You'd have to prove that it is 2^aleph-null to claim that it "transcends the traditional size of infinity", and spoiler alert but statements like those usually aren't enough for that on their own.
unless of course you are saying that a Universe is just a 3D space(that thing only applies for the inside of the universe for it's spatial dimension), which wrong since the one that is being stated here is outside the Universe.
It is 3D spatially yes, it being called 4D just means it would be universe+ sized here, that's all, since we treat time as the 4th (temporal) dimension here. There's no reason to believe it's talking about a 4th spatial axis and even if it was, good luck proving that its significant and non-compact
The issue with this, is the raws wouldnt be necessary for majority of what I listed since its based on interpreting the already known english version, not whether the translation was correct or not.
Also, the universe was never destroyed, it simply ended. This references the Heat Death theory, but the universe is still intact, thats why they say the world isnt destroyed merely ended.
Are you ok?
I translated this thing using Google translate and this is what the thing gave
《That's right. Feldway's "Time-Space Jump Gekishinpa" sent us flying to the other side of time and space. The lifespan of the planet there had long since expired, but the world had not yet collapsed. It is assumed that Feldway's power was limited to destroying the Axis World's universe.》
Now tell me, did he not destroy it. It literally said DESTROYED THE AXIS WORLD'S UNIVERSE, but not the World itself
...
I don't know what happened to Ivarage or how he acted, but what is certain is that the world was not destroyed.
...
Ivarage seemed to have gone berserk while I was away, as if to say, "Feldway will just destroy the world as he wishes," so even if I heard that he failed to destroy the world, I wouldn't feel relieved.
Um... is that okay?
Brother, A Universe is a Universe no matter what size it is, that includes the aspect of it expanding infinitly. It is a 4 Dimensional(it is literally stated in volume 13 or something about transcending time and space/ts means you transcend the traditional size of infinity. If you know what Aleph or higher infinity is then you should already know that you can dwarf an infinity)structure unless of course you are saying that a Universe is just a 3D space(that thing only applies for the inside of the universe for it's spatial dimension), which wrong since the one that is being stated here is outside the Universe.
The whole idea of universal in this wiki, is to be the size of a universe. If I have a garage sized space/time and call it a universe, are we now going to allow that to be Low 2-C?
I've already called into question about the sizes of these "universes" so unless you have evidence to prove they are equal in size to our observable universe, you simply are not refuting the main contention at this point.
The issue with this, is the raws wouldnt be necessary for majority of what I listed since its based on interpreting the already known english version, not whether the translation was correct or not.
that's not how it works, when the verse itself sometimes has problem with en translation, you need to reconfirm it via raw, this is why official translation thread is exist. as we know tensura one of this verse, where otl was not in good quality.
I will say this, generally being called a universe and a space-time on their own IS enough to qualify being a Low 2-C structure at least, but if there's evidence against either of those requirements, then you're gonna have to try a lot harder to prove they're universes. For instance, even if they're called universes, but are actually shown to be planet sized, then they'll just be treated as planet sized spaces despite their name. Just a heads up before this "Universe/Not a Universe" petal picking game devolves into something incomprehensible.
Getting to much wank? Show me when or where has tensura ever gotten wanked(unless you mean wanks by those who didn't read the LN) more than their 2A Cosmo in VSB, ignoring previous tier 1.
And asking size of the universe kinda sounds meh since it's stated to be a literal universe, that's like questioning if a square is actually a square. Ignoring if all worlds are actually the same size nuking the verse cuz the universes mentioned are not actually " size of a universe" doesn't work that way. We have subspace, space, different timelines, worlds (which are bigger than actual universe) the universe and dimensions which supposedly contains worlds
Never once were that stated to be universe, that were just called universe in passing a few times.
I already mentioned this, but Yuuki was the only one who was implying and stating they could be universes, however that was merely questioned and I brought up the fact the translation could refer to two possibilities instead of specifying world to be universe and that has yet to be refuted by anyone.
So yes, when you have varying sizes of spaces and being called a universe isnt about size, then we have to figure out the sizes of these spaces.
The whole idea of universal in this wiki, is to be the size of a universe. If I have a garage sized space/time and call it a universe, are we now going to allow that to be Low 2-C?
WHAT SIZE of the universe are you on about?! The requirements for Universal is for it to be infinite in size, but also for a hax that can manipulate spatial dimension, in which this is proven by the fact that the UNIVERSE is growing Infinitly
Also space/time no matter what size it is, it is still 4D, do you even know the basic structure of Dimensionality. Oh my God
I've already called into question about the sizes of these "universes" so unless you have evidence to prove they are equal in size to our observable universe, you simply are not refuting the main contention at this point.
Unless you can prove that sizes are the always the requirements for a structure or someone to be be Universal and above. I suggest you keep your mouth shut, you are trying to scale without the regards or using dimensionality itself and are only basing it on the size of a structure
No, cause Ciel was traveling in a universe. How can that be if there is no universe?
World wasnt destroyed could refer back to the universe in this instance since if they were talking about the cardinal world, theyd use the kanji for it.
So clearly the world ISNT destroyed, which revises the statement you hyperfocused on instead of looking at the others that disprove that universe being destroyed.
《―――その後、星すら瞬かぬ宇宙を漂うように彷徨<[さまよ]い、 この世界の終わりを見届けたのです≫
《–––After that, I wandered around in a universe where not even a star twinkled, and watched the end of the world.》
The whole idea of universal in this wiki, is to be the size of a universe. If I have a garage sized space/time and call it a universe, are we now going to allow that to be Low 2-C?
I've already called into question about the sizes of these "universes" so unless you have evidence to prove they are equal in size to our observable universe, you simply are not refuting the main contention at this point.
Since when does it have to be “equal” in size to our observations universe when the observable universe is constantly growing? You can’t just make some baseless claims.
Ngl this CRT will end up having more page or haywire
Not, not "space/time". Space AND Time, that is, the entire continuum, is what can qualify as 4D. Time itself can also generally be 4D but that's irrelevant here, still, you cannot beat the size requirement here that's absolutely crucial.
I suggest you keep your mouth shut, you are trying to scale without the regards or using dimensionality itself and are only basing it on the size of a structure
There's no need for this sort of hostility here. How'd you feel if he told you to shut it instead? Not great I imagine, so don't. Size of a structure is important as the standards page I sent above says, so he's not disregarding anything, you are.
I already mentioned this, but Yuuki was the only one who was implying and stating they could be universes, however that was merely questioned and I brought up the fact the translation could refer to two possibilities instead of specifying world to be universe and that has yet to be refuted by anyone.
So yes, when you have varying sizes of spaces and being called a universe isnt about size, then we have to figure out the sizes of these spaces.
Sorry to inform you, but, L2c and above needs little reasoning for size, I literally know a verse which has a L2c rating via branches which contains timelines.
Every translations I have seen about tensura worlds has always being
Worlds>universe and are you ignoring the fact that velgrynd who experienced this first hand explained to us how the Cosmo works?
Dimensions contains timelines or more accurately contains both worlds and timelines since dimensions are like containers of worlds
Not, not "space/time". Space AND Time, that is, the entire continuum, is what can qualify as 4D. Time itself can also generally be 4D but that's irrelevant here, still, you cannot beat the size requirement here that's absolutely crucial.
I think what he means is that, even if it doesn't qualify for Low 2-C, the "space-time continuum" itself (even if not universe-sized) would still effectively be a "4D construct"
WHAT SIZE of the universe are you on about?! The requirements for Universal is for it to be infinite in size, but also for a hax that can manipulate spatial dimension, in which this is proven by the fact that the UNIVERSE is growing Infinitly
When is growing infinitely ever stated? They were stated to expand at the speed of light, but that doesnt mean they will grow to be Universal in size, you'd have to prove the amount of years equal the size of the universe, since it would take 1 year to be 1 light year, meaning a world theoretically needs 93 billions years in order to be the size of a universe, if you can provide any reason why that would be the case, all power to you.
And growing infinitely =/= infinite in size, in fact there universes have an end, proven in vol21 and 22, so they have a finite time meaning they can never be infinite.
This disregards how this wiki classifies space/times, a space/time the size of a marble isn't going to be the same as a space/time the size of a galaxy. So again, this is a mute point.
Unless you can prove that sizes are the always the requirements for a structure or someone to be be Universal and above. I suggest you keep your mouth shut, you are trying to scale without the regards or using dimensionality itself and are only basing it on the size of a structure
Lets refer back to the classification of universe in this wiki shall we?
Universe-sized Realms Guidelines
It is common for fictional characters to be scaled based on creating one or multiple "Worlds", "Dimensions", or "Realms". However, many users may often be confused on whether those are synonyms of universes or simply pocket realities. They may have indications of being quite large, but they still require some more in depth or specific evidence to truly be universes. Otherwise, they will simply be pocket realities judged by their known size.
These are notes that the worlds are indeed universes; while they don't need all of these, at least one of them should indicate this.
If they are outright called universes or stated to be the size of universes by a reliable source, they should be considered universes.
If the size of the realms described has having infinite sizes or other synonyms, that should strongly indicate them being universes.
If they are outright stated to be completely separated by the barriers of time and space and either stated or shown to be reasonable in size, such as having countless galaxies, then they should indeed be universes.
If they're flat out stated to be entire timelines, then they are indeed alternate universes.
Being labeled as "Entire Alternate Realities" generally indicates them being called universes, but the context and semantics should preferably be specified.
If they're stated to mirror "The Universe" or "Our Universe" or "The Real World", they would refer to being universes.
If there is shown to be a collection of multiple alternate worlds/dimensions that are either stated to be parallel and/or there are visual depictions resembling each of those worlds/dimensions to be metaphorically similar to each other (Such as bubbles or other structures that appear similar in size), and most importantly, at least one of those individual worlds/dimensions has shown enough evidence to consider them a Universe level+ sized spacetime continuum, then the conclusion is to consider all of those individual worlds/dimensions universes and that the entire collection is a multiverse.
Clearly this wiki heavily emphasizes that size is key and very important to classify a universe EVEN if it has been stated to be a space/time
I think what he means is that, even if it doesn't qualify for Low 2-C, the "space-time continuum" itself (even if not universe-sized) would still effectively be a "4D construct"
"Never once were that stated to be universe, that were just called universe in passing a few times."
Lol, okay you contradicted yourself
Sorry to inform you, but, L2c and above needs little reasoning for size, I literally know a verse which has a L2c rating via branches which contains timelines.
Every translations I have seen about tensura worlds has always being
Worlds>universe and are you ignoring the fact that velgrynd who experienced this first hand explained to us how the Cosmo works?
Dimensions contains timelines or more accurately contains both worlds and timelines since dimensions are like containers of worlds
You bring up a "contradiction" even when i state yuuki was implying possibilities and i noted that it was the only statement that could be any actual statement, stating something is a universe. HOWEVER, its questioned and not confirmed, so where's the confirmation?
Also, bring forth the line that implies worlds > universes, so we can discuss that point in depth.
No, cause Ciel was traveling in a universe. How can that be if there is no universe?
World wasnt destroyed could refer back to the universe in this instance since if they were talking about the cardinal world, theyd use the kanji for it.
So clearly the world ISNT destroyed, which revises the statement you hyperfocused on instead of looking at the others that disprove that universe being destroyed.
《―――その後、星すら瞬かぬ宇宙を漂うように彷徨<[さまよ]い、 この世界の終わりを見届けたのです≫
《–––After that, I wandered around in a universe where not even a star twinkled, and watched the end of the world.》
"sent us flying to the other side of time and space", "where The lifespan of the planet there had long since expired, but the world had not yet collapsed"
The Life Span of the Planet ended before the Universe was destroyed by Feldway. Did you really think that the lifespan of the planet is Infinite?
The event is taking place between the destruction of the planet and the end of the world.
If you say, you are gonna make you own understanding, then it won't hurt if I do the same(unless of course you send the entire context, so I can analyze it)
No, cause Ciel was traveling in a universe. How can that be if there is no universe?
World wasnt destroyed could refer back to the universe in this instance since if they were talking about the cardinal world, theyd use the kanji for it.
So clearly the world ISNT destroyed, which revises the statement you hyperfocused on instead of looking at the others that disprove that universe being destroyed.
《―――その後、星すら瞬かぬ宇宙を漂うように彷徨<[さまよ]い、 この世界の終わりを見届けたのです≫
《–––After that, I wandered around in a universe where not even a star twinkled, and watched the end of the world.》
Also don't forget the texts before that said, "sent beyond space and time", also just because the Universe got destroyed, does not mean it hasn't already reached its own end, and Feldway just finished the work by destroying it. After all as a spiritual life form does. Ot need to be bother by life soan
"sent us flying to the other side of time and space", "where The lifespan of the planet there had long since expired, but the world had not yet collapsed"
The Life Span of the Planet ended before the Universe was destroyed by Feldway. Did you really think that the lifespan of the planet is Infinite?
The event is taking place between the destruction of the planet and the end of the world.
If you say, you are gonna make you own understanding, then it won't hurt if I do the same(unless of course you send the entire context, so I can analyze it)
Firstly, it was translated to "stars" not planets. Also I never even implied the planet had an infinite lifespan.
Honestly, with how many times you have misconstrued my arguments and even red herring them, I might just stop responding to you entirely and let someone else do it.
So please reread my arguments to understand them and stop putting words in my mouth.
Also don't forget the texts before that said, "sent beyond space and time", also just because the Universe got destroyed, does not mean it hasn't already reached its own end, and Feldway just finished the work by destroying it. After all as a spiritual life form does. Ot need to be bother by life soan
You dont need the whole scan, that one line implies a universe still exists for ciel to traverse.
He was also sent to the "end" of time and space, not beyond it. Time and space was still present, and theres multiple reasons to believe that.
For example, he is able to use space/time leap which requires spatial and temporal coordinates to activate. Not only that, but it was never even implies space and time weren't present, just that they halted all movement.
So again, the universe wasnt "destroyed" in a literal sense, but nothing was present, or seemed to be present at the end of the universe.
