Top 15 Strongest Non-Smurfs for Every Tier Continuation 4.0

[DontTalkDT]

Were they accepted or what ?

There is no officially required mechanism to accept layers. In the first place, layers are only a rough approximation.
If someone wishes to directly compare feats and mechanism, to get to an actually good conclusion, rather than the mess the layer idea is, they are my guest.

Edit: In general it's worth to remember that we don't even generally claim that an ability just having "higher potency" in a non-layer way is necessarily inferior to a layer. In the end, one doesn't get around actually comparing stuff. There's no single number solution on the matter of potency feats.

 

[AlexSamDen]

There is no officially required mechanism to accept layers. In the first place, layers are only a rough approximation.
If someone wishes to directly compare feats and mechanism, to get to an actually good conclusion, rather than the mess the layer idea is, they are my guest.

Didn't we have a general layer evaluation CRT and when it closed, we still require CRTs to assign layers? They are a major part of many VS matches

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

There is no officially required mechanism to accept layers. In the first place, layers are only a rough approximation.
If someone wishes to directly compare feats and mechanism, to get to an actually good conclusion, rather than the mess the layer idea is, they are my guest.

Edit: In general it's worth to remember that we don't even generally claim that an ability just having "higher potency" in a non-layer way is necessarily inferior to a layer. In the end, one doesn't get around actually comparing stuff. There's no single number solution on the matter of potency feats.

A simple "No, they weren't accepted" is enough.

 

[DontTalkDT]

A simple "No, they weren't accepted" is enough.

Because you definitely asked out of random curiosity, not as an argument

Didn't we have a general layer evaluation CRT and when it closed, we still require CRTs to assign layers? They are a major part of many VS matches

If you want to put layer numbers on a profile then you would need a CRT. Generally, hax potency (and layers specifically) doesn't need to be assigned a number on a profile to be used as an argument, though. 'cause, as said, the numbers are at best a rough guideline anyway. They have no authority on interaction.

 

[AlexSamDen]

If you want to put layer numbers on a profile then you would need a CRT. Generally, hax potency (and layers specifically) doesn't need to be assigned a number on a profile to be used as an argument, though. 'cause, as said, the numbers are at best a rough guideline anyway. They have no authority on interaction.

I believe that while the reasoning for layers can be laid out in the matchup directly, rather than doing this in every matchup, it is easier to get them accepted somewhere. Especially if there are more than 3. Moreover, laying out reasoning like this leaves the possibility of some kind of scan manipulation, while in a CRT, while the possibility still exists, it is greatly lowered due to possible interference from opponents, honest supporters and just random guys who happened to know the verse and stumbled upon the thread

 

[DontTalkDT]

I believe that while the reasoning for layers can be laid out in the matchup directly, rather than doing this in every matchup, it is easier to get them accepted somewhere. Especially if there are more than 3. Moreover, laying out reasoning like this leaves the possibility of some kind of scan manipulation, while in a CRT, while the possibility still exists, it is greatly lowered due to possible interference from opponents, honest supporters and just random guys who happened to know the verse and stumbled upon the thread

Nothing stops you from checking sources in a vsthread with the same scrutiny as in a CRT. My experience is actually the opposite: In a vsthread people are motivated to actively poke holes in your argument, so they often result in a way more sceptical examination than in CRTs.
And the problem with the whole "easier" argument is that, again, the number has no general authority. You don't automatically win the interaction by having the bigger number. It's absolutely imaginable that you can have the higher number but the lower overall potency, if the feats behind it suck. So if you skip the actual comparision of feats, in the end, you lose out on nuance.

All of this isn't saying that a good profile doesn't document potency. However, I believe that documenting the reasoning behind the potency is the relevant part, not the number.

 

[AlexSamDen]

Nothing stops you from checking sources in a vsthread with the same scrutiny as in a CRT. My experience is actually the opposite: In a vsthread people are motivated to actively poke holes in your argument, so they often result in a way more sceptical examination than in CRTs.
And the problem with the whole "easier" argument is that, again, the number has no general authority. You don't automatically win the interaction by having the bigger number. It's absolutely imaginable that you can have the higher number but the lower overall potency, if the feats behind it suck. So if you skip the actual comparision of feats, in the end, you lose out on nuance.

All of this isn't saying that a good profile doesn't document potency. However, I believe that documenting the reasoning behind the potency is the relevant part, not the number.

Usually (at least in my experience) detailed explanation is provided for layered abilities and the potency of the ability. You of course don't automatically win due to higher number and I am a person who knows this perfectly, as I usually argue in VS matchups against people with 30+ layers, while having at most 5 accepted for my side. And yet, just like tiers are just arbitrary numbers in a matchup between "hax lords", it is still important to have them properly laid out for fair comparison

 

[DontTalkDT]

And yet, just like tiers are just arbitrary numbers in a matchup between "hax lords", it is still important to have them properly laid out for fair comparison

Thing is, tiers might not decide who wins a fight between hax lords, but tiers are perfectly objective in what the tiers themselves compare. Tiers reflect energy of attack. If your opponents attack has 11000 Joules of energy and yours has 10999, then your attack is weaker, no way around it.
Meanwhile, if your hax has 100 layers and your opponent's has 99, theirs can actually still be more potent.
It's the difference between measuring a distance in meters and measuring a distance in terms of the number of carrots you need to lay it out. The latter might be a rough guide, but only truly meaningful if you know which carrots were used.

Anyway, long story short, in a vsmatch you need to compare feats. The number isn't an argument in itself, so it's pointless to insist that it needs approval for an argument to have validity.
Currently, we have no rule regarding it being required on profiles.

 

[Rikimarox2]

Thing is, tiers might not decide who wins a fight between hax lords, but tiers are perfectly objective in what the tiers themselves compare. Tiers reflect energy of attack. If your opponents attack has 11000 Joules of energy and yours has 10999, then your attack is weaker, no way around it.
Meanwhile, if your hax has 100 layers and your opponent's has 99, theirs can actually still be more potent.
It's the difference between measuring a distance in meters and measuring a distance in terms of the number of carrots you need to lay it out. The latter might be a rough guide, but only truly meaningful if you know which carrots were used.

Anyway, long story short, in a vsmatch you need to compare feats. The number isn't an argument in itself, so it's pointless to insist that it needs approval for an argument to have validity.
Currently, we have no rule regarding it being required on profiles.

Is there any thread that discuss/accept this? I like this honestly way more than the whole "bigger number = auto win", as some applications of the same hax are very obviously more potent, but are just not that good because everyone and their mother has "le layers", even if the thing they originally resisted is not that potent.

Edit: Also, assuming this is true, what are exactly the real nit and gritty of the On a Godless Planet? Additionally, Neo isn't really limited to 5, his immortality skill upgraded to hell and back, and he can just come back (as shown by the fact that he kept getting deleted and coming back)

Also, I forgot to mention something really important, his Damage Reduction. That stuff literally makes everything 50% weaker, and continues making it 50% weaker (Ie, if the attack was 100 in terms of power, it becomes 50 when it damages him, and if the attack is overtime damage or whatever (passive, for example), it'll keep getting reduced, ie 25, 12.5, etc...), and that stuff works on quite literally everything (which includes hax), it kept resisting his core being completely erased (Type 2 Concept and Info) by constantly reducing the attacks by 50%, making it impossible to truly destroy it. As in, it'll just go infinitely.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Is there any thread that discuss/accept this? I like this honestly way more than the whole "bigger number = auto win", as some applications of the same hax are very obviously more potent, but are just not that good because everyone and their mother has "le layers", even if the thing they originally resisted is not that potent.

The hax page already states

As mentioned in Note 2 above, layers are just one way to prove exceptional potency of an ability and could be overcome by abilities that have shown potency by other means. In reverse, an ability with many layers could also be potent enough to overcome a resistance that worked against a hax that is exceptionally potent in other ways. How exactly different showings of potency compare is highly case-by-case and in general might be inconclusive.

So in principle the framework exists, as any argument for higher potency could be used to overcome mere layer number (which would include an argument that between one layer and the next there is a higher span of potency).
However, I have been thinking for a while that perhaps I should create a thread for further clarification to be added, as these debates are rather frequent.

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

The hax page already states

So in principle the framework exists, as any argument for higher potency could be used to overcome mere layer number (which would include an argument that between one layer and the next there is a higher span of potency).
However, I have been thinking for a while that perhaps I should create a thread for further clarification to be added, as these debates are rather frequent.

If a hax or hax resistance had infinite potency would that be more forgiving or encompassing in what it can affect or resist? Since it reaches to infinity rather than a vague arguable finite potency.

 

[Dragonite007]

I think Neo Hargraves can be at the first spot on 7-B, since Arifureta is not updated, and Neo can currently beat them, I think. And a supporter said it's fine.

Also, I'm nominating him for a spot in 7-C. I think he comfortably gets the third spot. As for the second, iirc these are the characters with history shenanigans (going to the past and kill, etc...)? If so, Neo can't really beat them unless his aura shenanigans can help (and he's getting Acausality type 1 soon, if that helps)

Added

Li Qiye should be removed from 2-C since he got upgraded

Removed

 

[AlexSamDen]

So what do we conclude on the topic of Tensura 5B? Pretty sure we agreed Ergenverse lacks the ability to do anything here, as well as loses in terms of hax versatility

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

So what do we conclude on the topic of Tensura 5B? Pretty sure we agreed Ergenverse lacks the ability to do anything here, as well as loses in terms of hax versatility

No one agreed anything make a match if you want them to have the spot.

 

[AlexSamDen]

No one agreed anything

Pretty much everyone agreed that you can't do anything without IM2

make a match if you want them to have the spot.

That got me wondering, which character to take.. Maybe let her get bodied by Veldora

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

Pretty much everyone agreed that you can't do anything without IM2

that does not they agreed on them gettng the top stop

That got me wondering, which character to take.. Maybe let her get bodied by Veldora

Then make the match instead of bothering the thread about your unclaimed talk.

 

[Deonment]

I don't really care to argue the ergen spot, but they aren't beating Bastard since they can't destroy all three of their bodies at once which exist in separate dimensions, so they incon

 

[AlexSamDen]

I don't really care to argue the ergen spot, but they aren't beating Bastard since they can't destroy all three of their bodies at once which exist in separate dimensions, so they incon

Several people have Interdimensional and Multiversal+ range, as well as some Causality stuff, so they can destroy them

 

[Deonment]

Several people have Interdimensional and Multiversal+ range, as well as some Causality stuff, so they can destroy them

Interdimensional/multiversal isn't enough, you need to destroy/affect all three at once to do affect them to begin with (also multiverse+ range is smurf), causality isn't special past a certain point in bastard, given the nature of Eternal Atoms (which compose all three aspects of their existence, but also govern a character's existence in fate but also the law of cause and effect), with characters having to completely destroy them to kill others in combat, so that doesn't really mean much

 

[AlexSamDen]

causality isn't special past a certain point in bastard, given the nature of Eternal Atoms (which compose all three aspects of their existence, but also govern a character's existence in fate but also the law of cause and effect), with characters having to completely destroy them to kill others in combat, so that doesn't really mean much

Causality in a sense that "if this part of you is destroyed, then naturally all of you is affected". There is a character who can turn a scratch into full destruction. The Multiversal range is basically Interdimensional, but with regards to every dimension in a Multiverse.

 

[Deonment]

Causality in a sense that "if this part of you is destroyed, then naturally all of you is affected". There is a character who can turn a scratch into full destruction. The Multiversal range is basically Interdimensional, but with regards to every dimension in a Multiverse.

Then it's extradimensional but that won't really help for the afformentioned reasons
The causality manip is just, something they do, they attack their enemies on all three dimensions, but Tensura's version of causality manip won't help them here, since you have to affect them in all three different dimensions at once for anything to work

correct me if im wrong but the final key of Zhong Yue is smurf right? Without Zong Yue's 4-D range i don't see how he beats bastard!! characters
even if that range is allowed i still don't think he wins for 3-B spot

Page is older than the extradimensional range rating, but he does actually have the ability to affect them, but his page is once more, old, and wasn't updated with the standards when the old type 1 and 2 got merged into our current concept type 1

Honestly, there is an argument for him needing to be removed considering his age/outdated status, but eh

 

[AlexSamDen]

Then it's extradimensional but that won't really help for the afformentioned reasons
The causality manip is just, something they do, they attack their enemies on all three dimensions, but Tensura's version of causality manip won't help them here, since you have to affect them in all three different dimensions at once for anything to work

Where do the 3 dimensions come from? So far I only see the material and astral plane on profiles. The debate about range aside, can't they just use clones and tp to these dimensions and launch attacks at the same time?

 

[Deonment]

Where do the 3 dimensions come from? So far I only see the material and astral plane on profiles. The debate about range aside, can't they just use clones and tp to these dimensions and launch attacks at the same time?

Material, Astral, and Ideal/Collective Unconscious planes
Anyways, I'm honestly not sure that'd work, firstly considering they would have to interact with the EA to begin with, all at once, when all three bodies should be entirely capable of operating at once, and thus landing attacks at all three dimensions at once (if that works to begin with, but yeah)
Could you give an example of a character who can actually do that, as in has both clones, and the range to do that, I can believe they exist, but I would rather not thumb through the entire verse when you likely can think of someone quicker than I can

 

[AlexSamDen]

Anyways, I'm honestly not sure that'd work, firstly considering they would have to interact with the EA to begin with

What's the AE for EA?

, all at once, when all three bodies should be entirely capable of operating at once, and thus landing attacks at all three dimensions at once (if that works to begin with, but yeah)

Considering Bastard characters can't interact with them, it does seem possible

Could you give an example of a character who can actually do that, as in has both clones, and the range to do that, I can believe they exist, but I would rather not thumb through the entire verse when you likely can think of someone quicker than I can

Rimuru, Veldora, Velgrynd. They have the range and a cloning ability equivalent to Aca3. Though regular clones should also be enough, but eh, better to just throw the better one

 

[Deonment]

What's the AE for EA?

EA are more fundamental than, and govern, Matter, Minds (obv), Type 1 Concepts, Space-Time, History, Fate, and Causality

Considering Bastard characters can't interact with them, it does seem possible

My thought is less so that, and more the fact that they may have issues with trying to land an attack in every dimension the EA/Bodies are in as they actively move around and stuff
(I'm also unsure of how well that'd actually work as a counter, but I'll accept it to work from what I'm reading off the Bastard profiles)

Rimuru, Veldora, Velgrynd. They have the range and a cloning ability equivalent to Aca3. Though regular clones should also be enough, but eh, better to just throw the better one

Sure

 

[Deonment]

are we sure that just because someone has IM 2 abstract existence its impossible for the other character to interact?

Yes?
Bastard doesn't have info type 2 and could possibly interact with, and outhax, the concept type 1 stuff, that would involve layer arguments, which I do not want to get into because I am not a verse knowledgeable

 

[AlexSamDen]

EA are more fundamental than, and govern, Matter, Minds (obv), Type 1 Concepts, Space-Time, History, Fate, and Causality

Pretty sure they interact with that, so no problem in this department

My thought is less so that, and more the fact that they may have issues with trying to land an attack in every dimension the EA/Bodies are in as they actively move around and stuff

Chasing and using large AoE attacks shouldn't be a problem, no?

(I'm also unsure of how well that'd actually work as a counter, but I'll accept it to work from what I'm reading off the Bastard profiles)

Works for me

 

[Deonment]

according to that hax layer thread and this blog, bastard characters have 6 layers of magic and it looks like magic is a type 1 cm

I was thinking more of dispel bounds rather than magic

Anyways, magic seemed to be mechanically CM1 rather than being so potent wise, but looking at angel/demon pages, yeah, seems like that is a workable layer count for concept manip then

Pretty sure they interact with that, so no problem in this department

They interact with something more fundamental than all of that?
I'm guessing information, but I do not fully remember my Tensura order of aspects, so correct me if I'm wrong

Chasing and using large AoE attacks shouldn't be a problem, no?

Yeah that could

 

[AlexSamDen]

They interact with something more fundamental than all of that?
I'm guessing information, but I do not fully remember my Tensura order of aspects, so correct me if I'm wrong

Their abilities stem from (and interact with) Laws of the World and Great Spirits who are either the source of or govern pretty much everything in the verse.
The top aspects are mostly Law&Concept, though not sure how Void goes into that

 

[Deonment]

Their abilities stem from (and interact with) Laws of the World and Great Spirits who are either the source of or govern pretty much everything in the verse.
The top aspects are mostly Law&Concept, though not sure how Void goes into that

I mean, the Great Spirit/Laws of the World seem to be type 1 concepts, are they superordinate/govern any type 1 concepts themselves (and I don't mean like, how spiritual lifeforms are, they read as more just offshoots or "fragments" of the great spirits than wholly different concepts)

 

[AlexSamDen]

I mean, the Great Spirit/Laws of the World seem to be type 1 concepts, are they superordinate/govern any type 1 concepts themselves (and I don't mean like, how spiritual lifeforms are, they read as more just offshoots or "fragments" of the great spirits than wholly different concepts)

Yeah, cores, skills, etc

 

[Deonment]

Yeah, cores, skills, etc

Aren't those type 1 scaling off the great spirits/voice of the world to begin with?
But if they aren't, then sure, they can take the spot

 

[AlexSamDen]

Aren't those type 1 scaling off the great spirits/voice of the world to begin with?
But if they aren't, then sure, they can take the spot

They are scaled off "equal in nature and potency" statements, so while connected, they are not the same

 

[Deonment]

They are scaled off "equal in nature and potency" statements, so while connected, they are not the same

Yeah but that means they doesn't mean that they are any less fundamental than the type 1 things, just subordinate to them
I'm also just not sure how much I want to continue this back and forth, but eh

 

[AlexSamDen]

Yeah but that means they doesn't mean that they are any less fundamental than the type 1 things, just subordinate to them

Well GS are considered the absolute and preside over, considered superior and dwarf everything else (there are even args for Platonic, but that's not now)

I'm also just not sure how much I want to continue this back and forth, but eh

Feel you

 

[Deonment]

Honestly, Tensura can just take the spot rn, I am not a bastard supporter, I would rather not do this back and forth, dragonite can make the update whenever they take a look at this thread again

 

[Rikimarox2]

It was fun while it lasted, but Neo Hargraves should be removed from this list entirely due to being smurf. As for what is smurf? Well... normal ass humans in verse can see in 4.5 dimensions (SCP shenanigans here)...

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

It was fun while it lasted, but Neo Hargraves should be removed from this list entirely due to being smurf. As for what is smurf? Well... normal ass humans in verse can see in 4.5 dimensions (SCP shenanigans here)...

Seeing in 4.5 dimensions is not automatically a smurf. It's only smurfy when they see the significant portion which they obviously arent. Dimensions alone arent what makes something a smurf, but involving dimensions in one way or the other that are tiering applicable (Range, AP, ETC. So being able to for example actually see a tesseract-like object or other higher-dimensional objects isn't seeing 4-D in significant sense.)

 

[Rikimarox2]

Seeing in 4.5 dimensions is not automatically a smurf. It's only smurfy when they see the significant portion which they obviously arent. Dimensions alone arent what makes something a smurf, but involving dimensions in one way or the other that are tiering applicable (Range, AP, ETC. So being able to for example actually see a tesseract-like object or other higher-dimensional objects isn't seeing 4-D in significant sense.)

If that's true, then peak, since the 4.5 dimensions aren't really applicable here in any way (Range, AP, whatever).

 

[Minaaaa]

what characters from ergen are for 5-C and what puts kagami above them