Fundamental aspects of Black Clover / Part 1 of 5 (Mana is a smurf 1-A)

[Nayrysclover315]

The series currently hasn't surpassed tier 5. I know this probably won't be accepted in some way, since Fire Force and TGOHS, which have much more explicit feats and statements, aren't accepted as 1-A. But at least it changes the opinion of some BC supporters like you. Level 1-A isn't an impossible reality, and currently, the way the Wiki is going, nothing that doesn't have R>F will be accepted as 1-A. But I'll continue with the topic since I believe in my arguments and there really haven't been any counter-arguments that are valid according to Wiki standards vsb.

I’ve always been in favor of BC Uni + Mana Smurf 1A. It came to my mind during the final saga, but I was waiting for more statements and more development about it which I’m still waiting for, actually

 

[King_Gorilla4002-8922]

I feel like that's kind of the point, when the tiering system got revised I've always seen it as "1-A is restricted to versed with explicit R>F" which makes sense, it's the reason why we have a Low 1-A that's based on "Transcending dimensions" because those are verses that might have a Qualitative superiority to dimensions or dimensionality but they don't have R>F.

R>F has always been a must have in my eyes for 1A, Outerversal isn't a common tier and should be reserved for verses that "put in the effort" to have these incredible and impossible gaps. Heck I remember when DC was getting upgraded I didn't see a single argument for just Qualitative Superiorty it was all based on R>F. Which makes sense they go hand in hand, but why would just Qualitative Superiority make you 1-A? Low 1-A already puts you beyond Quantity so why even have the tier if the same thing gets you 1-A? Doesn't make sense in my mind.

Honestly you'd be better off arguing Low 1-A if anything. Not to mention I still don't understand why you want the upgrade anyway since you're not applying it to anyone in the verse just the verse tier

Qualitative superiority has always been more important than R>F. There are verses that have R>F, but the power level can be achieved through quantitative methods, like Monica's Gang, for example. The main point of level 1-A is indivisibility over the kingdoms below it, which is what we call qualitative superiority. The Wiki works with "power"; all power levels up to h1-B+ have the capacity to be divided to a lower level like 1-B, 2-C, and even 11-C. Level 1-A would be the pinnacle of power in relation to these because it could not be reduced to any lower level; 1-A is always 1-A.

 

[AyOgUyS]

Been a while since I've read the tiering system but as far as I understand it leaves the of quantity behind, you're beyond the quantity of space and time. Even if you don't see the things beneath you as some sort of less than infinitesimal thing, no ordered pair will stack up to you, because you left the ordered pair already.

Yes and so does R>F, I don't see 1-A without both of those things, R>F automatically has Qualitative, just having Qualitative giving you 1-A doesn't make a lot of sense to me

Our definition of Outer is literally just the definition of a qualitative superiority

 

[Saqphire]

Our definition of Outer is literally just the definition of a qualitative superiority

Also, R>F is a horrid analogy for 1-A as spatiotemporal beings can see spatiotemporal beings as fiction with or without qualitative or quantitative superiority. We do it, and so does Fate with their Imaginary Space. And the "reality" being unreachable =/= it is always qual sup, quan sup does the same thing

 

[AyOgUyS]

Also, R>F is a horrid analogy for 1-A as spatiotemporal beings can see spatiotemporal beings as fiction with or without qualitative or quantitative superiority. We do it, and so does Fate with their Imaginary Space. And the "reality" being unreachable =/= it is always qual sup, quan sup does the same thing

when did I ever say a reality being unreachable means 1-A

 

[Exoko]

Also, R>F is a horrid analogy for 1-A as spatiotemporal beings can see spatiotemporal beings as fiction with or without qualitative or quantitative superiority.

If they're both bound by the same space-time then it ain't R>F according to the standards here, but the 1A character can have their own space-time for their layer that is also qualitatively superior to the lower reality. Or were you trying to say smthing else? I don't really get it

 

[Saqphire]

when did I ever say a reality being unreachable means 1-A

I didn't say you did, I said Ultima did. It's one of his main justifications for R>F being 1-A because he puts it like this; "No matter what fiction does, it will never reach reality"

If they're both bound by the same space-time then it ain't R>F according to the standards here, but the 1A character can have their own space-time for their layer that is also qualitatively superior to the lower reality. Or were you trying to say smthing else? I don't really get it

I'm saying R>F shouldn't be used as an analogy for QS as the former does not always entail the latter.

Space-time is meant to be irrelevant to 1-A beings regardless as dimensions (which space-time is composed of) is meant to be irrelevant to them. It's why I used Julius' temporal magic to debunk this CRT so spatiotemporal beings being 1-A just cuz they see a lower spatiotemporal reality as fiction is contradictory

 

[AyOgUyS]

I'm saying R>F shouldn't be used as an analogy for QS as the former does not always entail the latter.

I think it does tho

 

[Exoko]

Space-time is meant to be irrelevant to 1-A beings

Only the space-time of the lower reality that they perceive as fiction, they can have their own space-time that’s on that is also 1A, the BDE Type 3 (what the OP is going for) mentioned it:

these beings can still operate on a higher notion of dimensionality that is fundamental to their own nature and reality.

So basically we R>F a character, but we both have our own space and time respective to our realities, in regards to the lower reality everything from our reality is 1A including space and a pen.

However if anything (I.e space) from our reality can exist in that fiction’s reality (their space) then that’s an anti-feat for being qualitatively superior to their version of space and the R>F transcendence isn’t R>F by the wiki’s standards (since they’re reducible to what makes up the ‘fiction’)

 

[Exoko]

I think it does tho

Yeah it does

 

[BeTheWay1rst]

1-A is based on qualitative difference, R>F in only one way to get that tier.

 

[Exoko]

For Morris, the "physical body" is Law, destiny, probability, outcome (causality), concept, souls, knowledge, time, space—basically everything that exists in the "content of the world."

Did you miss a scan?

 

[BleedingPeach]

Nope. Still not Tier 1.

 

[King_Gorilla4002-8922]

Did you miss a scan?

?

 

[Exoko]

?

I reread your post again and saw something new, with no scans.
The part I quoted.
v

For Morris, the "physical body" is Law, destiny, probability, outcome (causality), concept, souls, knowledge, time, space—basically everything that exists in the "content of the world."

 

[Sonoftanavast9]

I reread your post again and saw something new, with no scans.
The part I quoted.
v

Because it doesn't exist.

It's contingent on stitching together wholly unrelated statement and moment in the series.

Morris doesn't even have the same devil power from being possessed by lucifero that let him interact with concepts after he gets folded in the spade arc and his purified devil power in the Finally arc is a different effect with 0 mention of that same capability (Both are being conflated to construct this frankenstein sentence)

 

[Mommyleona]

I reread your post again and saw something new, with no scans.
The part I quoted.
v

because there's no such scans
his justification is "well Morris is a scientist and knows a buncha stuff, therefore this is obviously what he meant when saying "physical body""
Occam's razor tears what he says into bits and pieces

 

[Exoko]

Mana is not only present in the wild in nature but also in the world itself.

Earlier I had only looked at BDE Type 3 in your post, now I'm looking at your CM Type 1 and
You say that mana exists in the world for CM Type 1 & give evidence for it, then act like a brick wall and deny this to push BDE Type 3.
You're trying to give Mereolona Acausality Type 4 alongside 1A, but that's kinda redundant as just getting that 1A tier already nullifies any form of Acausality or ability below it's tier, unless you're trying to give her Acausality Type 4 at the 1A tier.

The Level 1-A being doesn't exist separately from the world in an "external reality," but rather is part of the world as an essential attribute that defines it.

Didn't see that earlier.
Still explained why that is not the case though, multiple times.
Where did you even get this from?

 

[Nayrysclover315]

Because it doesn't exist.

It's contingent on stitching together wholly unrelated statement and moment in the series.

Morris doesn't even have the same devil power from being possessed by lucifero that let him interact with concepts after he gets folded in the spade arc and his purified devil power in the Finally arc is a different effect with 0 mention of that same capability (Both are being conflated to construct this frankenstein sentence)

What you’re saying isn’t really valid, since Morris clearly tells us that it’s forbidden magic / devil power that gives him this ability. And once they’re purified, the paladins obtain all the demons’ abilities

 

[Sonoftanavast9]

What you’re saying isn’t really valid, since Morris clearly tells us that it’s forbidden magic / devil power that gives him this ability. And once they’re purified, the paladins obtain all the demons’ abilities

No it isn't

When Morris says "PHYSICAL Body" he means "PHYSICAL Body".

Literally nothing in that conversation points to him magically deciding that actually he means all the nonsense listed by King_Gorilla

Devil's power isn't uniform, Morris getting Conceptual Manipulation from Lucifero isn't a standard for all ******* devils and that's clear as day.

Not once did a fully manifested Zagred use such an ability nor even possessed Zenon and many more devils or devil possessed or Paladines with purified devil power.

It's unique to Morris being possessed by ******* Lucifero, the literal king of devils.

The only other devils that can interact with concepts using their base magic are Lilith and Naamah (and yes I say interact because they shouldn't actually even have Conceptual Manipulation just NPI for concepts) which is unique to their magic rather than a trait of devils in general because as I've pointed out numerous other manifested Devils appear with 0 indication of this power and numerous devil possessed occurred with 0 indication of this power.

Zagred, Devils Bargain Zenon, Demon Light Magic Patry, Natch (who only does so under a specific spell that only has a specific function and was shocked and ******* surprised by the fact Lilith and Naamah could affect concepts), Paladin Lily, Paladin Morgan, Paladin Heath, Paladin Acier etc.

None of these characters display any capacity to interact with concepts in the way Morris possessed by Lucifero did... he'll ******* Paladin Morris didn't either

 

[Sonoftanavast9]

Honestly idk how you can do what amounts to just ******* lying that Forbidden Magic automatically = Concept Manipulation of any kind when Nacht who literally uses Forbidden Magic via Devil Contracts finds out Lillith/Naamah can interact with concepts and literally starts losing his shit and thinks it's IMPOSSIBLE:



End this farce of a thread

 

[Zanesucksatlife]

4 pages? Damn

 

[Nayrysclover315]

Honestly idk how you can do what amounts to just ******* lying that Forbidden Magic automatically = Concept Manipulation of any kind when Nacht who literally uses Forbidden Magic via Devil Contracts finds out Lillith/Naamah can interact with concepts and literally starts losing his shit and thinks it's IMPOSSIBLE:



End this farce of a thread

https://vsbattles.com/threads/a-few-ability-additions-for-black-clover.178157/ Check it yourself

 

[FroYoSans]

Qualitative superiority has always been more important than R>F. There are verses that have R>F, but the power level can be achieved through quantitative methods, like Monica's Gang, for example. The main point of level 1-A is indivisibility over the kingdoms below it, which is what we call qualitative superiority. The Wiki works with "power"; all power levels up to h1-B+ have the capacity to be divided to a lower level like 1-B, 2-C, and even 11-C. Level 1-A would be the pinnacle of power in relation to these because it could not be reduced to any lower level; 1-A is always 1-A.

R>F implies QS, R>F is literally a gap beyond quantity, you could stack an Infinity of larger infinities infinitely and it would never reach such a gap. Because it's reality fiction transcendence, someone sees someone else as Fiction, they see those character the same way we see them. At least when those characters have Outerversal existence and an actual R>F relationship. Having R>F already gives you QS. Also you kind of ignored the Low 1-A part...it's beyond all measure of space and time so how do you divide something like that down?

 

[FroYoSans]

Our definition of Outer is literally just the definition of a qualitative superiority

Eh fair enough, I mean in hindsight it makes sense, Qualitative Superiority is just being beyond quantity

 

[BeTheWay1rst]

the Low 1-A part...it's beyond all measure of space and time so how do you divide something like that down?

This is wrong, just read the tiering system, low 1-A is still quantitative.

 

[FroYoSans]

This is wrong, just read the tiering system, low 1-A is still quantitative.

I realized in hindsight yeah its based on something called a Vonneuman Universe. Which is weird given its supposed to be the tier for things "beyond space and time" and you wouldn't think that would be divisible but you learn something new everyday

 

[King_Gorilla4002-8922]

Earlier I had only looked at BDE Type 3 in your post, now I'm looking at your CM Type 1 and
You say that mana exists in the world for CM Type 1 & give evidence for it, then act like a brick wall and deny this to push BDE Type 3.
You're trying to give Mereolona Acausality Type 4 alongside 1A, but that's kinda redundant as just getting that 1A tier already nullifies any form of Acausality or ability below it's tier, unless you're trying to give her Acausality Type 4 at the 1A tier.

Didn't see that earlier.
Still explained why that is not the case though, multiple times.
Where did you even get this from?

BDE type 3 is more similar to BDE type 1; it doesn't transcend physical composition by size, as if it were outside of cosmology like the standard for BDE type 2. Instead, it's a transcendence of quality. You're confusing the analogies of R>F and "more extensive space" with BDE type 3. BDE type 3 lacks physical composition like type 1, but with a "transcendence of nature." This transcendence can be represented in various ways; it's up to the verse to define it. R>F and indivisibility are one of these ways.

Type 4 acasuality should be a standard for 1-A.

I never denied the existence of mana in the world; my point to BDE was that it had no "physical composition" and was "indivisible" in relation to it.

 

[Sonoftanavast9]

https://vsbattles.com/threads/a-few-ability-additions-for-black-clover.178157/ Check it yourself

This thread is terrible, misinformation and full of nonsense

If I had seen it and has access to my laptop i'd have half a mind to have all this largely removed.

Genuinely wondering if anyone read this through with any degree of basic scrutiny.

Acausality for Forbidden Magic is bullsh*t first and foremost, on the grounds that the OP & reader seem to forget or not know that the current standards for it require you actually have FEATS of directly resisting each individual ability you want to attribute a character resistance through acausality and further because there's numerous examples of this supposed acausality not doing sh*t against Fate Hax, Precog, Law Hax etc. (Dante's supposed AcAuSaL Forbidden Magic was literally affected by Rouge just fine, while he himself notes repeatedly that Rouge is manipulating natural laws, until he actively negated Rouge which isn't how Acausality works—Negating something that clearly works on you is not the same as being immune to it)

The assertions about Mereleona's Mana form are based entirely on conflating Morris Lucifer Devil Powers with his Paladin Powers despite there being no correlation.

So much more,

Frankly it's a horrible thread, luckily coasting off the fact most people can't be assed to read carefully or be knowledgeable on the verse enough to spot the clear wank and does nothing to prove your points

 

[Maniaunavailable]

this can be closed now iirc, 3 mods already disagreed

 

[Worthless]

https://vsbattles.com/threads/a-few-ability-additions-for-black-clover.178157/ Check it yourself

Lol no knowledgeable member bothered with that thread, that’s why that horrendous thing got accepted

 

[Nayrysclover315]

This thread is terrible, misinformation and full of nonsense

If I had seen it and has access to my laptop i'd have half a mind to have all this largely removed.

Genuinely wondering if anyone read this through with any degree of basic scrutiny.

Acausality for Forbidden Magic is bullsh*t first and foremost, on the grounds that the OP & reader seem to forget or not know that the current standards for it require you actually have FEATS of directly resisting each individual ability you want to attribute a character resistance through acausality and further because there's numerous examples of this supposed acausality not doing sh*t against Fate Hax, Precog, Law Hax etc. (Dante's supposed AcAuSaL Forbidden Magic was literally affected by Rouge just fine, while he himself notes repeatedly that Rouge is manipulating natural laws, until he actively negated Rouge which isn't how Acausality works—Negating something that clearly works on you is not the same as being immune to it)

The assertions about Mereleona's Mana form are based entirely on conflating Morris Lucifer Devil Powers with his Paladin Powers despite there being no correlation.

So much more,

Frankly it's a horrible thread, luckily coasting off the fact most people can't be assed to read carefully or be knowledgeable on the verse enough to spot the clear wank and does nothing to prove your points

I don’t want to clutter the discussion space, since that’s not the topic here. And if you’ve actually read the entire discussion, you can see that Acausality was rejected, and that acausality applies only to the demons. Are you sure you read it properly, or did you read it hastily out of anger?

 

[Nayrysclover315]

Lol no knowledgeable member bothered with that thread, that’s why that horrendous thing got accepted

There seems to be an unfortunate alignment between your name and the value of your arguments

 

[Excellence616]

There seems to be an unfortunate alignment between your name and the value of your arguments

Hey, don't

 

[Sonoftanavast9]

I don’t want to clutter the discussion space, since that’s not the topic here. And if you’ve actually read the entire discussion, you can see that Acausality was rejected, and that acausality applies only to the demons.

The thread literally starts with trying to apply acausality to Forbidden Magic in general and regardless everything said about Dante still applies to Devils... You know the literal ******* source of his gravity magic which had to negate Rouge rather than just be immune to it by virtue of some acausality.

Regardless of that even, precog works just fine on devils and demons so that's out the book anyway.

Why even link the thread when it conflates the same shit with Morris Lucifero Possessed Devil Power and Paladin Powers in an attempt to elevate glorified incorporeality into what it's not?

This threads pretty much a total bust, there's nothing of value here to clutter

 

[King_Gorilla4002-8922]

Honestly idk how you can do what amounts to just ******* lying that Forbidden Magic automatically = Concept Manipulation of any kind when Nacht who literally uses Forbidden Magic via Devil Contracts finds out Lillith/Naamah can interact with concepts and literally starts losing his shit and thinks it's IMPOSSIBLE:



End this farce of a thread

And how would that be a counter-argument? Nacht says this because fire and ice magic can do that, since concepts are neither flammable nor freezeable. He's desperate in that scene, so much so that he uses supreme demon-level magic to trap two supreme demon-level demons. In other words, it's not a rational situation for him; it's a desperate attempt to stop the two demons.
This also supports me more than it refutes me, as it opens a window into what the nature of forbidden magic is.

Forbidden magic has the ability to perform impossible actions, such as burning and freezing concepts, making healing magic regenerate limbs (something considered impossible in the verse), and enabling someone to possess two spells (also considered impossible in the verse), etc... Basically, forbidden magic has the innate ability to contradict the logical conventions established by the verse, as per the following points.

Truth and Paradoxes in Fiction - Basics for Literary Analysis Where Logic Stops

With all the metaphysical bs and debates about logic break that was going on this has long since been overdue. Let's have a debate on what we consider "true" in fiction, especially once paradoxes are involved. To do that in a productive way, we need to agree on some kind of shared toolkit for...

vsbattles.com

Logic Manipulation Addition Thread

So, Logic Manipulation is a thing now. Hence, for a limited time only, say if you want it added in this thread and, if it's sufficiently obvious, we can approve it right here. Might take the best suggestions as an example for the page as well. If any other staff feel like helping with the...

vsbattles.com

It fits perfectly into the new logic manipulation page , and it also gives greater meaning to Charlotte's statement "to alter the form of the soul and the world," this "form" being nothing more than the "ideal shapes/form" which are logical truths.

Edit: That's why I presented things in Platonic terms in the first version of the topic; however, it's a line of reasoning that's somewhat complicated to explain and would also lead to a discussion about magic and not mana, which is something I don't want to do.

 

[Vietthai96]

Basically, forbidden magic has the innate ability to contradict the logical conventions established by the verse, as per the following points.

It fits perfectly into the new logic manipulation page , and it also gives greater meaning to Charlotte's statement "to alter the form of the soul and the world," this "form" being nothing more than the "shapes/form ideas" which are logical truths.

What?

There seems to be an unfortunate alignment between your name and the value of your arguments

Okay, while this isn't anything rule breaking, let stop this kind of comment

 

[Shar122]

It fits perfectly into the new logic manipulation page , and it also gives greater meaning to Charlotte's statement "to alter the form of the soul and the world," this "form" being nothing more than the "ideal shapes/form" which are logical truths.

Too vague...
Also the new logical manipulation involves manipulating logical contradiction or invoking incoherence of deductive reasoning etc. It's not a definitive "form" behind something..
"Manipulating the form of the soul and the world" without much elaboration alone doesn't scream that much anything really frankly speaking.

 

[Sonoftanavast9]

Nacht says this because fire and ice magic can do that, since concepts are neither flammable nor freezeable.

No he says that because they can interact with concepts at all??? If they were dissolving the spell with "Devil Acid Magic" or something it wouldn't change much of what actually shocked him which is then interacting with a spell that doesn't physically exist by virtue of being capable of interacting with concepts.

He's says that because they can interact with concepts after all... Which he shouldn't be surprised about if everyone with Forbidden Magic (You know the thing he himself has) can do the same.

freezeable. He's desperate in that scene, so much so that he uses supreme demon-level magic to trap two supreme demon-level demons. In other words, it's not a rational situation for him; it's a desperate attempt to stop the two demons.
This also supports me more than it refutes me, as it opens a window into what the nature of forbidden magic is.

Nothing here is relevant to your point nor does it support your point which isn't much of anything.

Natch uses a spell that doesn't physically exist -> The spell gets broken regardless -> Natch thinks this is IMPOSSIBLE which he wouldn't if all Forbidden Magic let you supposedly interact with concepts much less regular magic -> Natch concludes that they did it because thier magic can interact with concepts.

Nothing you've said has any coherent point, what are you even trying to convey here???

Forbidden magic has the ability to perform impossible actions, such as burning and freezing concepts,

Specific to Lilith and Naamah not applicable to Forbidden Magic in general.

Again Natch himself has forbidden magic and the prospect of interacting with concepts is so shocking he literally internally screams IMPOSSIBLE.

making healing magic regenerate limbs (something considered impossible in the verse)

And something that is very possible in many verses with basic healing magic or powers from different verses [even hard Sci-Fi shit intrinsically bound by conventional physics].

The impossibility of doing it without forbidden magic is just a showing for how limited baseline healing magic in Black Clover is, not that there's some "Logical truth" being broken by virtue of being capable of healing a severed limb.

Also again not relevant or applicable in general.

and enabling someone to possess two spells (also considered impossible in the verse)

This right here just kind of makes my point for me, you take the use of the word "Impossible" as harshly literal as possible in that you railroad it into being something like ******* with laws or physics when that's not the case.

Charmy has two ******* magic types by simple virtue of just being bi-racial [Half Human/Half Dwarf]... Tell me did her parents doing the devil's tango to conceive her constitute Forbidden Magic by LITERAL breaking of the words laws/ logic?

Or is it more likely that you are just being extra-ultra-super hyperbolic with the mention of something being "Impossible".

The word "impossible" is referential, inherent limited by the knowledge available to the character or things it's in reference to.

Basically, forbidden magic has the innate ability to contradict the logical conventions established by the verse, as per the following points.

It doesn't have jack shit, you just string together completely unrelated phenomena and the numerous uses of words like "impossible" completely devoid of separate context and common sense to come to a false conclusion.

It fits perfectly into the new logic manipulation page , and it also gives greater meaning to Charlotte's statement "to alter the form of the soul and the world," this "form" being nothing more than the "shapes/form ideas" which are logical truths

It doesn't fit it even slightly and if you've come to the conclusion that it does based on this flimsy nonsense I advise you to take a step back and reassess your stance

Edit:

just wanted to say stop with this bullsh*t here:

Charlotte's statement "to alter the form of the soul and the world," this "form" being nothing more than the "shapes/form ideas"

These words—"form" being nothing more than the "shapes/form ideas—do not leave that woman's mouth or anyone's mouth.

You are literally just inserting stuff not said by anyone or present in any statement and coming to conclusions based of it.

 

[Exoko]

BDE type 3 is more similar to BDE type 1; it doesn't transcend physical composition by size, as if it were outside of cosmology like the standard for BDE type 2. Instead, it's a transcendence of quality. You're confusing the analogies of R>F and "more extensive space" with BDE type 3. BDE type 3 lacks physical composition like type 1, but with a "transcendence of nature." This transcendence can be represented in various ways; it's up to the verse to define it. R>F and indivisibility are one of these ways.

Didn't address my points, just brought up more nonsense that you made up for BDE Type 3 trying to take me on another tangent where I have to explain to you that qualitative superiority for 1A requires them to not exist in a non-1A realm, though I have said, and proved, this multiple times in the thread already.

Type 4 acasuality should be a standard for 1-A.

It is a given that 1A isn't affected by anything from a lower tier, it's a standard that the causallity manip of a non-1A wouldn't work on you, like any other non-1A ability, unless you're trying to give her 1A Acausality (which you hopefully aren't)