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Kamen Rider Cosmology Scaling: Part 2 (Everything Else)

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I feel like the veracity of the Ridewatch scaling should be dissected further (given what was discussed off-site). Not every Ridewatch should necessarily scale to 1-A because it can store Gaim's story, just like not every Ridewatch scales to High 1-A for storing Saber's story.

I'm sure @Omazio2019 has plans on going further on that, but I feel like the standard Ridewatches (non-Gaim tier) should be 1-C, given that's what every Rider (with the exception of Kuuga) scales now. It will spare us from a lot of headache regarding the scaling given 1-A via powerscaling alone is no longer viable.
 
Given that the Ridewatch page already has a Varies rating, I think the simplest solution is to slightly adjust the tiering. I'm thinking of something like this:

Tier: Varies, 1-C up to High 1-A at most with Power Absorption | Varies, up to High 1-A with Power Absorption

Key: Base | Real World

Attack Potency: Varies (Ridewatches do not inherently have any power besides absorbing powers. The potency of Ridewatches is completely reliant on the power they have absorbed and contained within them), Complex Multiverse level up to High Outerverse level at most with Power Absorption (Ridewatches can erase and alter timelines, removing existing Riders from them. This includes Riders like Gaim and Saber. Hiryu Kakogawa used an Another Ridewatch to steal Oma Zi-O's powers, effectively erasing the concept of "Heisei" from the Real World. This caused all Heisei Era Riders to cease existing) | Varies, up to High Outerverse level (In the Real World, Ridewatches function the same but on the transcendence scale above the fictional world of Kamen Rider. Tid, after taking Kuuga's power to obtain Another Kuuga Watch, completely erased Kamen Rider from the Real World's history)
 
Jamesthetaker said:
Given that the Ridewatch page already has a Varies rating, I think the simplest solution is to slightly adjust the tiering. I'm thinking of something like this:

Tier: Varies, 1-C up to High 1-A at most with Power Absorption | Varies, up to High 1-A with Power Absorption

Key: Base | Real World

Attack Potency: Varies (Ridewatches do not inherently have any power besides absorbing powers. The potency of Ridewatches is completely reliant on the power they have absorbed and contained within them), Complex Multiverse level up to High Outerverse level at most with Power Absorption (Ridewatches can erase and alter timelines, removing existing Riders from them. This includes Riders like Gaim and Saber. Hiryu Kakogawa used an Another Ridewatch to steal Oma Zi-O's powers, effectively erasing the concept of "Heisei" from the Real World. This caused all Heisei Era Riders to cease existing) | Varies, up to High Outerverse level (In the Real World, Ridewatches function the same but on the transcendence scale above the fictional world of Kamen Rider. Tid, after taking Kuuga's power to obtain Another Kuuga Watch, completely erased Kamen Rider from the Real World's history)
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Does their dura change as well ? I hope not
I mean the whole point of Another ridewatches can only be destroy by their corresponding rider so that would apply to gaim as well
 
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I think their durability as a whole is probably Unknown given the rule of how Ridewatch works. The only time when we saw Ridewatch get "destroyed" was when Tsukasa nullified Ghost Watch back to a blank one.
 
Jamesthetaker said:
I think their durability as a whole is probably Unknown given the rule of how Ridewatch works. The only time when we saw Ridewatch get "destroyed" was when Tsukasa nullified Ghost Watch back to a blank one.
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No I mean are another riders (beside zi o and decade), post oma day riders( the ones in op 1a heisei 1 section) and zio riders (before grand zio) still scale to gaim or not
Sorry I don't talk much so Im not good at explaining
 
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Post Zi-O II Anotherwatch/Ridewatch users would be 1-A since the scaling mainly comes from Zi-O II being stated to be surpassing all previous Riders, which would include Gaim Watch.
 
Agitomasamune said:
No I mean are another riders (beside zi o and decade), post oma day riders( the ones in op 1a heisei 1 section) and zio riders (before grand zio) still scale to gaim or not
Sorry I don't talk much so Im not good at explaining
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Anyone who didn't use Ridewatch (Ryuki riders, etc.) won't qualify as they don't have their reasons to be 1-A. As for Pre-Grand Zi-O stuff. The ones who scale are probably Decade-Armor Zi-O, Zi-O II, Neo-Decade, Neo-Diend, Tsukuyomi, and Geiz Revive.
 
I have question about kamen rider tycoon
In black general form he fought geats ix,this is 1-A feat right?
 
Jamesthetaker said:
Post Zi-O II Anotherwatch/Ridewatch users would be 1-A since the scaling mainly comes from Zi-O II being stated to be surpassing all previous Riders, which would include Gaim Watch.
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so another ooo kuroto dan and another ryuga no longer scale ?
the latter zio need zio II to win despite having decade armor
Shouldn't 1a start after zio get decade armor ?
 
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EvoltOz said:
Anyone who didn't use Ridewatch (Ryuki riders, etc.) won't qualify as they don't have their reasons to be 1-A. As for Pre-Grand Zi-O stuff. The ones who scale are probably Decade-Armor Zi-O, Zi-O II, Neo-Decade, Neo-Diend, Tsukuyomi, and Geiz Revive.
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about anyone who use ridewatch didnt that would that make even base zio and other base zio riders qualified for 1a ? why dont they scale with it ?
 
Agitomasamune said:
so another ooo kuroto dan and another ryuga no longer scale ?
the latter zio need zio II to win despite having decade armor
Shouldn't 1a start after zio get decade armor ?
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Decade Armor wasn't used that much by Zi-O anyway. The ones who appeared after Decade Armor/before Zi-O II were White Woz, Decade, Geiz, Quiz, Shinobi, Another Quiz, Another Shinobi, Another Ryuki.

Another Ryuga used the Mirror World law to reflect any attacks and did not have a timeline to obtain a Ridewatch to counter him. He is essentially unkillable due to the circumstances, which are later bypassed by Zi-O II. Geiz and Woz eventually followed up with their own forms that can counter the "only Rider can beat Rider" rule that was established early in the series.

Agitomasamune said:
about anyone who use ridewatch didnt that would that make even base zio and other base zio riders qualified for 1a ? why dont they scale with it ?
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Because this would imply that every Ridewatch is 1-A in general. We know that some Ridewatches are stronger than others, which is why early Zi-O is only 1-A with Gaim Watch and Decade Watch early on, allowing us to avoid overthinking the PIS and outliers when a weaker Ridewatch (e.g., base Geiz and base Zi-O) can compete with Decade Watch.

This means we have to deem many feats in Zi-O as outliers/PIS or outright ignore them. In my first post, I advocated for removing the Zi-O appearance from some characters who don't have a plausible reason to scale to 1-A other than combat, as there are no other ways to justify their tiering.
 
Jamesthetaker said:
Decade Armor wasn't used that much by Zi-O anyway. The ones who appeared after Decade Armor/before Zi-O II were White Woz, Decade, Geiz, Quiz, Shinobi, Another Quiz, Another Shinobi, Another Ryuki.

Another Ryuga used the Mirror World law to reflect any attacks and did not have a timeline to obtain a Ridewatch to counter him. He is essentially unkillable due to the circumstances, which are later bypassed by Zi-O II. Geiz and Woz eventually followed up with their own forms that can counter the "only Rider can beat Rider" rule that was established early in the series.


Because this would imply that every Ridewatch is 1-A in general. We know that some Ridewatches are stronger than others, which is why early Zi-O is only 1-A with Gaim Watch and Decade Watch early on, allowing us to avoid overthinking the PIS and outliers when a weaker Ridewatch (e.g., base Geiz and base Zi-O) can compete with Decade Watch.

This means we have to deem many feats in Zi-O as outliers/PIS or outright ignore them. In my first post, I advocated for removing the Zi-O appearance from some characters who don't have a plausible reason to scale to 1-A other than combat, as there are no other ways to justify their tiering.
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I see thank you for explaining to me
Is immeasurable speed will return as well ? Hopefully ( I mean they scale and upscale from gaim so )
Sure zio need zio II to defeat another ryuga despite decade also have power to bypass another riders immortality unless zio didn't know decade can do that ?
 
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Jamesthetaker said:
To my best attempt to simplify this:

Kamen Rider is a huge franchise starting from 1975 up until today, currently reaching 40 series at the time this thread is made. Each series is being produced annually, with the TV series being the main one, along with numerous crossovers and spin-off specials. The franchise is split into three eras: Showa era (1975-1994), Heisei era (2000-2019), Reiwa (2019-ongoing). Because of the massive amount of works produced throughout the years, the thread was split into two parts.

The first thread deals with Showa scaling, which brings 1-C scaling into play. The reason for this is that Showa Riders can survive and nullify the Space Time Rupture System, which is said to erase all existence beyond space-time and dimensions, including all of the dimensions listed on the cosmology page (7-D), which were accepted here.

In this second thread, which will handle the next two eras: Heisei and Reiwa. Thanks to the previous thread, their scaling is simply brought over by crossovering with Showa Riders.
  1. All Riders vs Dai Shocker: The movie where every Riders up to Decade is brought together to fight against the main villains.
  2. Ghost: Appearance! The Mysterious Warrior!/Kamen Rider 1: Both movies brought back Kamen Rider Ichigo with his power-up form. They were aired during Kamen Rider Ghost's run, so all Riders from his series onward also get 1-C scaling.
  3. Girls Remix/Outsiders: These two are sort of their own spin-off series where they brought several previous Riders into one big crossover during Reiwa era.
    1. The scaling goes in this order: Ghost fights alongside Saber, Saber fights alongside Revice, Revice fights alongside Geats.
  4. Geats Extras: Kamen Rider Tycoon meets Kamen Rider Shinobi: Another spin-off featuring several Ninja Riders fighting together, with the appearance of Showa Riders Kamen Rider ZX to solidify the scaling even further.
(Yes, I'm using Youtube clips and reaction videos to save time)

1-A and High 1-A scaling are a little bit more tricky, though.
  • 1-A scaling originally came from this thread, where it's argued that Kamen Rider Gaim, after ascending to godhood, is 1-A. He is usually referred to as Man of The Beginning (MOTB)
  • Zi-O Riders would scale to 1-A due to the Ridewatch (page not fully updated yet btw), which contains not only a Rider's power source but also his or her entire history, essence, story, and so on. Gaim Ridewatch contains his power and nature as MOTB. Therefore, it scales all Ridewatch users to 1-A.
  • God Geats is getting 1-A for the reasons stated in the OP, aka he is described as having a similar existence to MOTB Gaim.
High 1-A is the tier that is reserved only for two types:
  • The Almighty Book: A concept in Kamen Rider that, like the Akashic Record, represents the sum of all ideas, possibilities, and concepts within the Kamen Riderverse. Further detail is on the cosmology page (Baseline High 1-A)
  • Kamen Rider Oma Zi-O: He has every single Riderwatch power, including that of Saber (High 1-A). Because of how Ridewatch works, he would also have the Almighty Book power (unfortunately, I can only find toy videos so I probably will get the actual clip later)
  • Shotaro Ishinomori/The Real World: Both have feats of transcending/viewing the entirety of the Kamen Rider verse as fictional, giving them one layer into High 1-A. Once again, detail is in the cosmology page.
That is basically what I can trim down. Are there any parts that you need us to elaborate upon?
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It’s 1971
 
Shouldn't the transformations from the Legend Gashats also be 1-A? [Kamen Rider Ex-Aid "Tricks": Kamen Rider Genm]
 
Lynieryz said:
Shouldn't the transformations from the Legend Gashats also be 1-A? [Kamen Rider Ex-Aid "Tricks": Kamen Rider Genm]
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That's due to the legend gashats (and other legend trinkets not named Rider Cards/Ridewatches) having their powers rather than everything that allows them to be 1-A (like the physiology, which houses Kouta's 1-A stats).
 
Lynieryz said:
Shouldn't the transformations from the Legend Gashats also be 1-A? [Kamen Rider Ex-Aid "Tricks": Kamen Rider Genm]
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Kuroto created the Legend Gashats. If the Gaim Gashat contained the powers of the MotB, then it would be an anti-feat for Gaim's 1-A rating.
 
for the Geats Oneness audience to be the thing (me strawman) Xgeats took geats skills/intelligence/stats before the final fight so geats was fighting with just a stat stick that didn't know how to fight at the start cause it was just heart ace . before it was geats > future people (this helps with him having higher tech plus being god ). so when (god/godkiller) Xgeat +3/4 geats vs 1/4 geats + future people it should not be enough of a boost as my 2cents . im happy with everyone hard works so im alright with whatever happen at this point tho (we also could say spark happened intelligence/luck is left with whatever Xgeats had )
 
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