A Huge Overhaul on Alien X's and Celestialsapiens' Pages (Heavy Downgrades) and Some Additions

[Aolphl]

I never make a thread over than year, I'm in little bit of depression, my internet running out and this is a Ben 10 crt, so I'm afraid...

Introduction​

So, in this thread, Alien X and other Celestialsapiens' regeneration got some issues, and requested by thread's creator and Reiner, this needs a discuss in another thread, so besides regeneration, I checked the profiles and I found another problems, so I will list them to fix these problems. Also, I will use mostly the Celestialsapiens' profile as reference cuz it's newly got a rework.

Removing Some Abilities:​

Regeneration​

• Regeneration (Low-Godly; regenerates from complete physical destruction)

Now, the main issues talked in thread I linked above, but I still need to list here. Low-Godly rating coming from due Galactic Gladiator gaining his body from being destroyed by Alien X's black hole, but our Black Hole page says this;

In the same way the forces holding our body together usually do so in a manner so that it is evenly accelerated through gravitation. But in a black hole things become extreme. Destruction would occur in three steps. First, the body will just be ripped apart through tidal forces, because the force becomes too strong to be counteracted through the forces holding the body together. Further in the tidal forces will become stronger than the four fundamental forces, which means that atoms will be disintegrated to the point that only elementary particles remain, without a special structure. In vs-battles terms that means they get disintegrated on quantum level.

And regeneration page says this;

High: The ability to regenerate from a few scattered or lone molecules, atoms, sub-atomic particles, or pure physical energy units.

And;

Low-Godly: The ability to regenerate from the complete physical destruction of the user's body, instead restoring it from their disembodied consciousness, whether that be their soul, mind, some other non-physical aspect of themself, esoteric or metaphysical energy, or something else.

Pretty simple, a black hole's destruction causes a body lost everything to elementary particles level, not the entire body itself, and High Regen is quite enough provides gaining a body from destruction of black hole. But there's another problems we have here... We don't see how GG gain his body back, black hole destroyed his body and the scene instantly changed, regeneration page says this;

Instances of wounded characters inexplicably recovering off-screen don't serve as evidence of regeneration without further supporting context. Reasons for this range from possible off-screen treatment to continuity errors. See this thread for reference.

Simple enough, since we don't see how he gain his body back, there's many different abilities can grant to a character their body body back, so we can't give High Regen directly, but since the very close ability is regeneration, because he regenerated his hand, my proposal will this;

• Regeneration (At least Low-Mid, likely High; comparable to the Galactic Gladiator, who regenerated his hand after being destroyed, gained his body back after destroyed by a black hole, but in offscreen)

My brain doesn't working good on wording, if you have good wording, please inform me.

Higher-Dimensional Manipulation​

The first ability;

• Higher Dimensional Manipulation (Can create and destroy higher dimensional spaces)

There's two problem here, the Creation page says this;

Implied Powers​

In case of creation of large and varied objects, such as planets, galaxies and universes, one should just list creation as ability without listing separate abilities for each created object. For example, while creation of a galaxy likely includes creation of black holes, Black Hole Creation should not be listed separately. An exception to that would be if the object in question is of particular relevance to the characters fighting style, i.e. if the character for instance launches black holes at his opponents.

And the Universe page says this;

• Characters capable of destroying 4-dimensional spacetime continuum(s) of universal scale will be granted Spacetime Manipulation for being able to affect the Spacetime of the universe. However, it must be noted that the physical destruction of a spacetime continuum is not sufficient to grant a character manipulation over its metaphysical aspects (such as laws, causality, etc.) that may have perished alongside it. If these aspects are destroyed simply because the physical universe housing them no longer exists, it is considered a result of their interrelatedness with the physical plane, rather than direct manipulation. Unless the fiction explicitly specifies that the destruction was of metaphysical in nature, no additional abilities pertaining to our Metaphysical page shall be granted. The same standard applies to the creation or alteration of such structures.

Should be simple, Alien X and other Celestialsapiens not directly manipulating the higher dimensions, they just crating and destroying alongside with the Universe, which is just an AP and Creation feat, so this part should go.

Other Higher Dimensional Manipulation​

The other HDM thing;

• Higher Dimensional Manipulation (Casually pierced through Contumelias extra-dimensional barrier)

This should be listed as "Limited" in the profiles cuz Alien X not manipulating the barrier's dimensionality, just piercing though with striking, which is DM page says this;

Characters that can just move or otherwise physically handle higher- or lower-dimensional objects can receive "Limited Dimensional Manipulation".

Pretty simple

Mind Manipulation​

The ability;

• Mind Manipulation & Body Puppetry (Comparable to Alien X, who controlled amalgam kids and Rooters)

Mind Manipulation and Body Puppetry is completely different abilities and counterparts of each others, which is it's written on Body Puppetry page;

Body Puppetry is the ability to control the body or bodies of others. Unlike its counterparts Mind Manipulation and Possession, it does not work off controlling the mind or inhabiting a body, rather it functions by controlling another's body directly from a distance without affecting the soul or mind. However, the end result is often extremely similar, so it can often be confused as either the aforementioned abilities, even in-verse.

Simple, these two abilities giving extremely same results with working different methods, since we doesn't have a reason say X controlled their mind, Mind Manipulation should be go, Body Puppetry can stay.

BFR​

The ability;

• BFR (Said to be capable of sending Incurseans billions of light years away from earth, were capable of not just stopping Aggregor but sending the trio to the forge of creation, Comparable to StarBeard, who can teleport people from Earth to the Galactic Court against their will)

"were capable of not just stopping Aggregor but sending the trio to the Forge Of Creation" the main problem; BFR specifically focusing on in-combat things, which is it's explaining in the ability's description;

BFR is short for Battle Field Removal, referring to one opponent forcing the other outside of their area of combat for a long enough period of time that the battle cannot be continued. As long as they cannot return from wherever they have been transported to within a certain amount of time - a week, going by Standard Battle Assumptions - victory is reached through BFR. The specific methods of BFR may vary, and they may be as simple as teleporting an opponent somewhere far far away to abandoning them in another time, sending them to a parallel universe, or knocking them into space.

Now you can say the page says "and they may be as simple as teleporting an opponent somewhere far far away to abandoning them in another time" but this supposed to be against the characters will's while in combat, the trio was already was wanna go to Forge of Creation, and they was looking for a way to go Forge of Creation, also we don't know how they will stop Aggregor, so this part should moved into their Teleportation section.

Resistance to Vibration Manipulation​

The resistance;

• Vibration Manipulation (Upscaling from Mother Celestialsapien, no harm was done to Mother Celestialsapien from Aggregor's vibration attacks)

The main problem here; Aggregor doesn't using Vibration Manipulation here, just striking and Mother Celestialsapien tanking which is only durability feat. No, if you say he using Vibration Manipulation, it's clearly can seen Mother Celestialsapien's hand's edge still shaking/vibrating, so there's no resisting anything, just durability thing. So this should be removed.

Other Some "destroying" and "creating" Abilities​

Destroying and creating something doesn't grant anything to a character which is I explained above in HDM part, which is written in the Universe page;

• Characters capable of destroying 4-dimensional spacetime continuum(s) of universal scale will be granted Spacetime Manipulation for being able to affect the Spacetime of the universe. However, it must be noted that the physical destruction of a spacetime continuum is not sufficient to grant a character manipulation over its metaphysical aspects (such as laws, causality, etc.) that may have perished alongside it. If these aspects are destroyed simply because the physical universe housing them no longer exists, it is considered a result of their interrelatedness with the physical plane, rather than direct manipulation. Unless the fiction explicitly specifies that the destruction was of metaphysical in nature, no additional abilities pertaining to our Metaphysical page shall be granted. The same standard applies to the creation or alteration of such structures.

And the Creation page;

Implied Powers​

In case of creation of large and varied objects, such as planets, galaxies and universes, one should just list creation as ability without listing separate abilities for each created object. For example, while creation of a galaxy likely includes creation of black holes, Black Hole Creation should not be listed separately. An exception to that would be if the object in question is of particular relevance to the characters fighting style, i.e. if the character for instance launches black holes at his opponents.

Simple enough, so these abilities which I will list below, needs to be removed due the Alien X and other Celestialsapiens just "destroying" or "creating" and not manipulating them.

Information Manipulation​

• Information Manipulation (Type 2;Could erase all of existence, which includes Rex's Dimension where space, time, matter, energy, etc... are fundamental building blocks of reality)

Remove it entirely due only destroying something alongside with the Universe

Causality Manipulation​

• Causality Manipulation (Via Existence Erasure which should be superior to the Chrono Navigator, a device capable of destroying all of existence, which includes time and causality, as Servantis implied Alien X being omnipotent in that aspect, which has been supported by Professor Paradox previously, who called him omnipotent as well. Wanted to save the dinosaurs from extinction. Celestialsapiens can destroy all of existence, which includes all time and causality itself)

Just leave the "Wanted to save the dinosaurs from extinction", remove the rest due destroying something alongside with the Universe

Soul Manipulation​

• Soul Manipulation (Capable of creating and manipulating living things which includes Anodites who are free sprits)

Remove "capable of creating" part due creating something alongside with the Universe, the rest is fine

Nonexistence Erasure​

• Nonexistence Erasure (Nature Type 1, Aspects 1, 4 [Information {Type 2}] & 5 [Other: Laws, Life-Energy, Physics & History]; Alien X could one day destroy all of existence including the <White Void> which is a dimension of nothingness and devoid of space-time and mana, <Mana> which is a energy devoid of any laws)

Remove it entirely due only destroying something alongside with the Universe

Non-Physical Interaction​

• Non-Physical Interaction (Abstractions [Type 1], Information [Type 2], Incorporeality, Intangibility, Idea, Personalities, Mind, Nonexistence [Nature Type 1, Aspects 1, 4 {InformationType 2} & 5 {Other: Laws, Physics & History}], Soul, Aura & Space; Can destroy all of existence including all nonexistence, spaces and Anodites. Is superior to the likes of Big Chill who can interact with his intangible species. Comparable, if not superior, to Paradox who interacted with his very mind. Can interact with Galactic Gladiator's aura, Galactic Gladiator could affect Alien X’s mind space)

Remove "Can destroy all of existence including all nonexistence, spaces and Anodites" due only destroying something alongside with the Universe, the rest is fine (not fine, actually, I will point this ability later in this thread)

Soul Destruction​

• Existence Erasure & Soul Destruction (History & Space-Time; Alien X could one day destroy all of existence, along with their individual history, including multiple space-time continuums. Should be superior to the Chrono Navigator, a device capable of destroying all of existence, which includes time and causality, as Servantis implied Alien X being omnipotent in that aspect, which has been supported by Professor Paradox previously, who called him omnipotent as well)

Remove Soul Destruction due only destroying something alongside with the Universe, the rest is fine.

Physics Manipulation & Law Manipulation​

• Physics Manipulation & Law Manipulation (Comparable to the Annihilarrgh, which establishes the laws of physics for each Annihilarrgh's universe. Capable of changing the entire universe, including laws of physics. Recreated an entire universe with it's specific laws of physics)

Remove "Recreated an entire universe with it's specific laws of physics" due only creating something alongside with the Universe, also there's no reason assume he changed the Universe's laws and physics, the rest is fine (not fine, actually, I will point these abilities later in this thread)

Some Powers and Abilities Alien X and Other Celestialsapiens Scaling for No Reason​

So, some of abilities in Alien X and Celestialsapiens' scaling (or just giving additional values) due to other characters some examples their Self-Sustenance scaling to Professor Paradox and their Technology Manipulation scaling to Upgrade, and the reasons are due stated they "omnipotent" or "can take any power" or just "Alien X can do anything". The main problem here, none of these does not justify to Alien X and other Celestialsapiens scaling to verse's characters powers and abilities. Power Inheritance Standards page says this;

• A character stated to be "omnipotent" or "able to do anything" doesn't qualify, as such cases are more likely than not hyperbole.

Also Power Mimicry and Power Absorption pages says this;

It would be a No Limits Fallacy to assume someone with this ability can copy anything used against them; even if they can copy the functions of the ability, they may not be able to copy its full destructive power.

Standards are standards. None of statements are not gives enough right to Alien X and other Celestialsapiens scale to other characters' specific powers and abilities, plus, Ben 10 Discussion Rules says this;

• Do not attempt to create threads claiming Alien X is only the most powerful in hax abilities and not attack potency. While them being omnipotent can be argued to only apply toward a “high level of reality warping” abilities, it ends up being a semantics debate. It's highly unlikely that they're the most powerful only because they have absolute control over reality, considering that there is a warrior class of Celestialsapiens who rely on their physical might rather than hax. Even Professor Paradox is capable of such things, and this extends to being capable of destroying it all. This was never called or treated at the same level as a Celestialsapien's omnipotence. In case if further clarification is needed, read here or here.

Rules are rules, due they are most powerful force in the verse, this doesn't mean they needs to scale the characters' powers in term of abilities and haxes, so in that case, these abilities, haxes and stats should be removed;

Self-Sustenance​

• Self-Sustenance (All Types; Superior to Professor Paradox, Celestialsapiens reside in the Forge of Creation without the need for oxygen or food and are capable of debating for eternity without sleep)

Remove "Superior to Professor Paradox" part, the rest is fine

Technology Manipulation​

• Technology Manipulation & Power Nullification (2, possibly 3 layers; Could restrict the functioning of the Omnitrix and stated to be capable of disabling the Conquest Ray. Should be comparable, if not superior to Upgrade, who could manipulate Robo Rojo's armor despite it resisting his prior attempt)

Remove "Should be comparable, if not superior to Upgrade, who could manipulate Robo Rojo's armor despite it resisting his prior attempt" part, the rest is fine

Existence Erasure​

• Existence Erasure & Soul Destruction (History & Space-Time; Alien X could one day destroy all of existence, along with their individual history, including multiple space-time continuums. Should be superior to the Chrono Navigator, a device capable of destroying all of existence, which includes time and causality, as Servantis implied Alien X being omnipotent in that aspect, which has been supported by Professor Paradox previously, who called him omnipotent as well)

Remove "Should be superior to the Chrono Navigator, a device capable of destroying all of existence, which includes time and causality, as Servantis implied Alien X being omnipotent in that aspect, which has been supported by Professor Paradox previously, who called him omnipotent as well" part, the rest is fine

Physics Manipulation & Law Manipulation​

• Physics Manipulation & Law Manipulation (Comparable to the Annihilarrgh, which establishes the laws of physics for each Annihilarrgh's universe. Capable of changing the entire universe, including laws of physics. Recreated an entire universe with it's specific laws of physics)

Remove "Comparable to the Annihilarrgh, which establishes the laws of physics for each Annihilarrgh's universe." part, and also remove "Recreated an entire universe with it's specific laws of physics" requested above due it's just Creation thing, the rest is fine (still not fine, actually, I will point these abilities later in this thread again)

Non-Physical Interaction​

• Non-Physical Interaction (Abstractions [Type 1], Information [Type 2], Incorporeality, Intangibility, Idea, Personalities, Mind, Nonexistence [Nature Type 1, Aspects 1, 4 {InformationType 2} & 5 {Other: Laws, Physics & History}], Soul, Aura & Space; Can destroy all of existence including all nonexistence, spaces and Anodites. Is superior to the likes of Big Chillwho can interact with his intangible species. Comparable, if not superior, to Paradoxwho interacted with his verymind. Can interact with Galactic Gladiator's aura, Galactic Gladiator could affect Alien X’s mind space)

Remove "Is Superior to the likes of Big Chill who can interact with intangible species" and "Comparable, if not superior, to Paradox who interacted with his very mind" parts, the rest is fine (though, "Can destroy all of existence including all nonexistence, spaces and Anodites" also will needs remove due I listed in above-other sections)

Stamina​

Stamina: Infinite (Comparable if not superior to Professor Paradox)

Remove entirely (I will make a replacement on this)

Range​

Range: Hyperversal (Should be comparable to the range of Chrono Navigator. Can create/destroy entire Annihilarrgh Universes. Servantis who is knowledgeable about other universes, claims that Alien X can wish everything out of existence)

Remove "Should be comparable to the range of Chrono Navigator." part, the rest is fine

Some Other NLF Stuff​

So, some of abilities (e.g Data Manipulation) coming from "Alien X changed the Universe", Chadzmut's statement "we all know Celestialsapiens changing the Universe" and some Starbread's statement (ig?). Main issue, they not saying "Celestialsapiens or Alien X changed everything", they just saying "Alien X created the Universe and everything in it" and "Celestialsapiens changing the Universe all the time", this does not justify to assume they literally changed everything, they just doing sometimes on something, not everytime on everything. That would be huge NLF if we assume they changed everything, Fallacies page says this;

16. No Limits Fallacy (NLF)​

This is when someone states that because something has not demonstrated any limits (or only certain limits) then it has none (or only the ones demonstrated).

Example​

"Itachi said that no one without a Mangekyou Sharingan can defeat him. Therefore he can beat all of DC, Marvel, DBZ, and Tenchi Muyo."

The person in this argument holds Itachi's statement to be absolute truth, ignoring the possibility that Itachi has no knowledge of certain enemies, or never expected to encounter them. The same can be said of Kishimoto: He never intended for his characters to be pitted in battle against characters from other works of fiction, so therefore statements like this do not hold true to other works of fiction necessarily. Furthermore, there is the possibility that in - universe, Itachi was lying, bluffing, misinformed, or deluded.

Pretty simple, due this reasons, these abilities should be removed;

Data Manipulation​

• Data Manipulation (Celestialsapiens change the universe often times, including digital worlds such as sumo slammers that is seemingly a simulated reality that uses data as a fundamental block to sustain reality)

Remove entirely

Physics Manipulation & Law Manipulation​

• Physics Manipulation & Law Manipulation (Comparable to the Annihilarrgh, which establishes the laws of physics for each Annihilarrgh's universe. Capable of changing the entire universe, including laws of physics. Recreated an entire universe with it's specific laws of physics)

Remove "Capable of changing the entire universe, including laws of physics" part, and the other parts also needs to remove due I listed in above-other sections.

Abstract Existence Type 1​

We finally come to the final boss. Oh boi, that gonna be chaotic..

Now, we need to check the misunderstood parts, the ability;

Incorporeality & Abstract Existence (Type 1 [Love & Rage]; Each Celestialsapien’s personalities embody something like Serena and Bellicus, who embody the ideas of Love and Rage.They lack a physical form due to their incorporeality and merely exist as an avatar. Celestialsapiens can only be affected by harming their debate dimension along with their consciousness, considering how Galactic Gladiator did the same to Alien X. This abstraction grants them Type 9 Immortality)

Their Incorporeality not because they "embodying" "Love & Rage" they have this due they existing as "Mind", there is nothing to do with AE1. And their Type 9 Immortality not because they "embodying" "Love & Rage", they have this due they existing in a "Pocket Dimension" where outside of the "Universe", which is mentioning their respect page;

• Immortality (Types 1, 2, 3, and 9; Celestialsapiens has been arguing and can argue for eternity. They live eternal life as they are born in The Forge of Creation. Celestialsapien's consciousness which comprises of 2 personalities/beings, who resides somewhere outside of the universe, disconnected from space-time, and exists independently of their body and can perform all actions without said body. For characters to be able to affect this consciousness they must have 1-B range and at that must be able to not just locate the pocket dimension and the personalities within for non-AoE moves, but also affect all of them at once. Comparable to Galactic Gladiator who can survive from explosion and lost his limbs, and can still alive when his body started to be cut to pieces)

• Pocket Reality Manipulation (Celestialsapiens hold absolute control inside a pocket dimension outside of the universe)

• Avatar Creation (Alien X's body is merely an avatar his consciousness likes to use to interact with the world)

So, their Immortality Type 9, Pocket Reality Dimension and Avatar Creation is nothing to do with AE1. At this point, this ability already disqualifies due they doesn't have a Immortality/Regeneration or they doesn't have control over the abstraction, and there's no other statement provides this.

Embodying a concept is not enough to obtain this ability, an abstract needs feats or reliable statements proving that the concept they represent grants them Immortality/Regeneration or control over the abstraction.

But more importantly, this AE1 logic is completely wrong because of Serena and Bellicus. First time when they meet with Ben, they says this;

Serena: I am Serena, the Voice of Love and Compassion!
Bellicus: And I'm Bellicus, the Voice of Rage and Aggression! You're supposed to be the Voice of Reason.

"You're supposed to be the Voice of Reason", now, they're Nigh-Omniscient, they know what they're talking about, they know their own race and they must be have knowledge about human race. They literally not talking about they "embodying" "Love & Rage", they talking about their "personalities", this is supporting by their before speak;

Ben: This is awesome. Quick, how do I make something else happen?
Serena: You are one of three.
Bellicus: eren't you listening?
Ben: Yeah, whatever. OK, team Alien X, let's move! (But Aliens X didn't move)
Serena: We are one of the most powerful beings in the universe...
Bellicus: ...because we are the most deliberative!
Ben: Huh, you mean the Earth is safe?
Bellicus: No, how'd you get that?

They was expecting being "Voice of Reason" from Ben, but when they was see Ben's behavior and Bellicus says "You're supposed to be the Voice of Reason", the expectation here is that decisions are made based on the "personalities" of "minds." they clearly not talking about "embodying" something, they talking about "personalities".

Further support, when Ben transform into Alien X, he doesn't turn into "abstract" being either because he just teleporting to Alien X's Pocket Dimension, this point also supported by Paradox and Omnitrix, these two also can teleport into the Alien X's Pocket Dimension, if you say Ben transform into "abstract" being, then this also means Paradox and Omnitrix also transformed into "abstract" beings which is huge stretch and this will need huge proofs

So, for these reasons, AE1 needs to go.

Non-Physical Interaction​

The ability;

• Non-Physical Interaction (Abstractions [Type 1], Information [Type 2], Incorporeality, Intangibility, Idea, Personalities, Mind, Nonexistence [Nature Type 1, Aspects 1, 4 {InformationType 2} & 5 {Other: Laws, Physics & History}], Soul, Aura & Space; Can destroy all of existence including all nonexistence, spaces and Anodites. Is superior to the likes of Big Chillwho can interact with his intangible species. Comparable, if not superior, to Paradoxwho interacted with his verymind. Can interact with Galactic Gladiator's aura, Galactic Gladiator could affect Alien X’s mind space)

This ability will change to this due reasons I explained in above-other sections;

• Non-Physical Interaction (Incorporeality, Personalities, Mind and Aura; Can interact with Galactic Gladiator's aura, Galactic Gladiator could affect Alien X’s mind space)

This one will go to Celestialsapiens' "Passive" section. And;

• Non-Physical Interaction (Information [Type 2] Nonexistence [Nature Type 1, Aspects 1, 4 {InformationType 2} & 5 {Other: Laws & Physics}] and Soul; Can destroy all of existence including Anodites)

And this one will go to Celestialsapiens' "Enhanced" section.

Some Replacements​

Teleportation​

As mentioned in BFR section; "were capable of not just stopping Aggregor but sending the trio to the Forge Of Creation" ability should go to Teleportation section, the ability will look like this;

• Teleportation (Can teleport in the middle of a fight, can send Ben, Gwen and Kevin to the Forge of Creation)

I'm not adding the Aggregor stuff cuz we don't know how they will stop him, that's an unknown.

Stamina​

Stamina: Infinite (Celestialsapiens are capable of debating for eternity without sleep, stated by Professor Paradox; Albedo turned to Alien X was trapped motionless for nearly a year without needing eat or sleep)

Due to Infinite Stamina removed by reasons above, this needs to replaced to profiles.

Also Alien X's Avatar Creation needs to move "Serena and Bellicus" section cuz the body doesn't have this ability but Serena and Bellicus. Also Celestialsapiens page lacks Avatar Creation, needs to added their "Passive" section.

Some Additions​

Large Size​

They base forms may larger than compere to Kevin and Gwen, and they can grown their size to compere to galaxies, so;

• Large Size (Type 0 normally, up to Type 7 with Size Manipulation; Celestialsapiens' base forms way larger than compere to Kevin and Gwen and can change their size to compere galaxies)

Information Manipulation Type 2 addition to Space-Time Manipulation​

They specifically stating that Alien X "alter the fabric of the Universe", and Space-Time is fundamental building blocks of the reality, so the abilities will look like this;

• Space-Time Manipulation & Information Manipulation (Type 2; Can alter the fabric of the Universe and change the very nature of space and time and space-time is fundamental building blocks of the reality)

Additional Existence Erasure​

Stated by Kevin "They could just blink and we'd be gone" and which is mentioning in Celestialsapiens' and Alien X's Notable Attacks section, so the ability will look like this;

• Existence Erasure (History & Space-Time; Alien X could one day destroy all of existence along with their individual history, including multiple space-time continuums. Could just "blink" people out of existence)

Voice Manipulation​

• Biological Manipulation (Azmuth's appearance and voice were changed three times)

Voice Manipulation also needs to be added cuz Azmuth's voice was also changed

Support Technology Manipulation and Possibly Mind Reading​

• Technology Manipulation (Created a machine for counting the votes in the Universe)

This would added to the already we have Technology Manipulation section, so the ability will look like this;

• Technology Manipulation & Power Nullification (2, possibly 3 layers; Could restrict the functioning of the Omnitrix and stated to be capable of disabling the Conquest Ray, created a machine for counting the votes in the Universe)

Also can be discussable possibly Mind Reading ability due counting votes here, the people in the Universe wasn't have buttons for voting, so maybe they was reading peoples minds.

Also I couldn't find any scan in YouTube, if you have scans, please inform me!!

Resistance to Gravity Manipulation and Additional Gravity Manipulation & Black Hole Creation​

• Resistance to Gravity Manipulation (Can fly or stand though around planets and galaxies without affecting their gravitational effects, can escape from center of a black hole)

Now you can say that Galactic Gladiator literally pulled into the black hole, that's true but not, we can be clearly see that Alien X boosting the black hole's gravitational force, there's some type of white-light energy coming from the black hole and pulling Galactic Gladiator, Alien X literally giving some extra work here to catch Galactic Gladiator. And so the Gravity Manipulation and Black Hole Creation would look like this;

• Gravity Manipulation & Black Hole Creation (Can create a galaxy-sized black hole and can boost black hole's gravitational force)

---

This is what I all got I guess, feel free to discuss but don't derail the thread please.

Agreements: Setsuna_tenma, Osemere, DemonicDude, Thunderman101, Planck69 (Everything except things listed in Neutral section, also thinks Regeneration stat is directly High rating), Anonymous_Learner, Reiner04 (Agrees with removings (except AE1), replacements and additions) LephyrTheRevanchist (same as Planck69) SomebodyData (same as Reiner04)

---

Neutral: Planck69 (On Mind Manip & Body Puppetry, but thinks one of them needs to go; on Range thing, but thinks it's redundant; on Technology Manipulation & Possibly Mind Reading) Reiner04 (the things they didn't reply) LephyrTheRevanchist (same as Planck69) SomebodyData (same as Reiner04 plus neutral on "Creating and Destroying" things)

---

Disagreements: Reiner04 (Disagrees with "Creating and Destroying" things)

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

agree.

 

[Osemere]

‘Layered’ black hole creation / grav manip isn’t a thing. In that case Alien X can just create more powerful black holes and quantities of gravitational energy probably.

Otherwise looks fine.

 

[Aolphl]

‘Layered’ black hole creation isn’t a thing. In that case Alien X can just create more powerful black holes probably.

Sorry for I didn't explained with more details, "Layer" going to Gravity Manipulation due X boosting black hole's gravitational force, not Black Hole Creation

 

[Qurbonboev]

Just asking as bystander:
You are removing a bunch of abilities that Alien X has due to this reasoning:

Remove it entirely due only destroying something alongside with the Universe

Annihilarrgh time bomb has a bunch of abilities, that would be removed according to your reasoning above(and it having them grants in turn resistances to Alien X due to him surviving it). Will it be tackled tko

 

[Aolphl]

You are removing a bunch of abilities that Alien X has due to this reasoning:

*with site's standards

Annihilarrgh time bomb has a bunch of abilities, that would be removed according to your reasoning above(and it having them grants in turn resistances to Alien X due to him surviving it). Will it be tackled tko

I didn't really checked the profile, but if the Anlg have these abilities due just creating something, these abilities also needs to remove (I can make another thread for this, I can't deal with now)

 

[DemonicDude]

I was already aware of this since past few days via Jonias.
Agreed FRA

 

[Aolphl]

I was already aware of this since past few days.
Agreed FRA

I was waiting you with This Fire song.

 

[Reiner04]

Regeneration​

Now, the main issues talked in thread I linked above, but I still need to list here. Low-Godly rating coming from due Galactic Gladiator gaining his body from being destroyed by Alien X's black hole, but our Black Hole page says this;

Looks fine.

Higher-Dimensional Manipulation​

The first ability;
There's two problem here, the Creation page says this;
And the Universe page says this;
Should be simple, Alien X and other Celestialsapiens not directly manipulating the higher dimensions, they just crating and

Higher dimensions are not metaphysical aspects but physical like spacetime continuum. So destroying them grants HDE manp as much as destroying Spacetime continuum grants spacetime manp.

Mind Manipulation

Seems fine to go.

BFR​

The ability;
"were capable of not just stopping Aggregor but sending the trio to the Forge Of Creation"

Ability is fine since they could send incursions billions of light years away and we know it would have been against their will. But the part you mentioned about Agreggor and trio should be removed from justification, yeah.

Resistance to Vibration Manipulation

Remove.

Other Some "destroying" and "creating" Abilities​

Destroying and creating something doesn't grant anything to a character which is I explained above in HDM part, which is written in the Universe page;

I am just going to point it out that Universe page doesn't say that you cannot get abilities or haxes for destroying the universe. It says you only get it if the destruction was of metaphysical nature.

• Characters capable of destroying 4-dimensional spacetime continuum(s) of universal scale will be granted Spacetime Manipulation for being able to affect the Spacetime of the universe. However, it must be noted that the physical destruction of a spacetime continuum is not sufficient to grant a character manipulation over its metaphysical aspects (such as laws, causality, etc.) that may have perished alongside it. If these aspects are destroyed simply because the physical universe housing them no longer exists, it is considered a result of their interrelatedness with the physical plane, rather than direct manipulation. Unless the fiction explicitly specifies that the destruction was of metaphysical in nature, no additional abilities pertaining to our Metaphysical page shall be granted. The same standard applies to the creation or alteration of such structures.

That said;

Causality Manipulation

Ben 10's time and Causality are inter-connected. I think it was even accepted in one of my thread long ago. Check Accausality page for further clarificstion:

Note: Being completely independent of space, time, laws, or similar forces does not make you completely independent of causality without the relationship between these forces and causality being clarified, with it only being considered as evidence for an irregular relationship with causality otherwise.

Also Chrononavigator has been stzted to destroy all time and causality in any case.

Soul Manipulation​

Remove "capable of creating" part due creating something alongside with the Universe, the rest is fine

The show has continously made it clear that not just the Universe which was destroyed. But "Everything inside it" too, separately at that. So its not just because of the destruction of the Universe that he has it, but for destruction of everything inside it, both different and thus, Universe page description is not a defeator.

Physics Manipulation & Law Manipulation​

Remove "Recreated an entire universe with it's specific laws of physics" due only creating something alongside with the Universe, also there's no reason assume he changed the Universe's laws and physics, the rest is fine (not fine, actually, I will point these abilities later in this thread)

Annhilargh very clearly created all Metaphysical aspects of the Universe. It wasn't byproduct of creation of physical Universe that Manna came into existence. Everything that exist in the Universe is not by product of the Universe existence but it was created alongside it. So Annhilargh having Metaphysical level of destruction and creation is fine.

I will comment on the rest later.

 

[Lort15]

Wild thread will look later

 

[DemonicDude]

I was waiting you with This Fire song.

I've heard this somewhere
don't forget End of Heartache used in ROH in 2000s era

 

[Aolphl]

Higher dimensions are not metaphysical aspects but physical like spacetime continuum. So destroying them grants HDE manp as much as destroying Spacetime continuum grants spacetime manp.

That's still not answering my points, creating higher dimensional universe's just creation and AP, destroying them just AP and Range feat which is already mentioning in Dimensional Manipulation page;

Dimensional Manipulation is the ability to manipulate the dimensions that aren't limited to just three-dimensional space. Its possible applications include being able to warp the dimensionality of a target to a higher or lower dimension, being capable of phasing someone in and out of existence by changing their positions in other dimensions, affecting a target by making it exist in more than one plane, among many other abilities.

Note that only manipulating geometric dimensions qualifies, not manipulating other forms of transcendence. Also, affecting entire timelines doesn't automatically qualify, as without further context it could be classified as an AP feat or a range feat for a particular ability.

Dimensional Manipulation is directly focusing on manipulating dimensions aren't limited three-dimensional space. By that logic, every Low 2-C characters, who can destroy and create universes, will get Dimensional Manipulation which is not true

Ability is fine since they could send incursions billions of light years away and we know it would have been against their will.

Yeah this part will stay in profile

I am just going to point it out that Universe page doesn't say that you cannot get abilities or haxes for destroying the universe. It says you only get it if the destruction was of metaphysical nature.

"that may have perished alongside it. If these aspects are destroyed simply because the physical universe housing them no longer exists, it is considered a result of their interrelatedness with the physical plane, rather than direct manipulation" the page is clear. Destruction of a universe also causes destruction of laws, physics and causality alongside with cuz these metaphysical aspects interrelatedness with the universe. Neither Alien X, Celestialsapiens, Anlg directly focusing destroy these metaphysical aspects, only Anlg creating differents laws and physics within creating the universes, and Chrononavigator directly destroying causality which is can grant Causality Destruction,

The show has continously made it clear that not just the Universe which was destroyed. But "Everything inside it" too, separately at that. So its not just because of the destruction of the Universe that he has it, but for destruction of everything inside it, both different and thus, Universe page description is not a defeator.

A destruction of Universe will of course cause destruction of "Everything inside it" too, Anlg doesn't destroyed the Universe with "piece by piece" or "layer by layer" or just "separately", everything just gone by one explosion, and Alien X didn't create the Universe "piece by piece" or "layer by layer" or just "separately", he just created the universe just by one process, the only "separately" creating thing was X taking the galaxies out of his body, which is irrelevant to thread, other everything just come with a energy wave

Annhilargh very clearly created all Metaphysical aspects of the Universe. It wasn't byproduct of creation of physical Universe that Manna came into existence. Everything that exist in the Universe is not by product of the Universe existence but it was created alongside it. So Annhilargh having Metaphysical level of destruction and creation is fine.

I don't have problem Annhilargh getting these abilities but Alien X and Celestialsapiens. Cuz they just created the these metaphysical aspects alongside with the Universe, which is there's no reason to assume that the Universe's physics and laws changed

I will comment on the rest later.

Aight

 

[Lort15]

Btw information manip scan that space-time is fundemental scan is broken

 

[Aolphl]

Btw information manip scan that space-time is fundemental scan is broken

It's working on Wiki but not in forum, idk why

 

[Hellformer]

Embody: to represent a quality or an idea exactly.
I don't get why AE1 is being removed? Serena and Belicus quite literally represent the idea of love and rage, in the way they talk and respond to Ben's opinions. That's explained in the imgur link I believe.

 

[Aolphl]

Embody: to represent a quality or an idea exactly.
I don't get why AE1 is being removed? Serena and Belicus quite literally represent the idea of love and rage, in the way they talk and respond to Ben's opinions. That's explained in the imgur link I believe.

I will respond that, but I need to eat something first

 

[Hellformer]

I will respond that, but I need to eat something first

Iftar huh

 

[Reiner04]

Dimensional Manipulation is directly focusing on manipulating dimensions aren't limited three-dimensional space. By that logic, every Low 2-C characters, who can destroy and create universes, will get Dimensional Manipulation which is not true

Dimensional Manipulation is simply manipulating dimensions. I don't think we have some separate definition of manipulation for dimensional manipulation. Destroying spacetime already gives spacetime manp so adding Higher dimensional manipulation for it again becomes reductant and unneeded.

"that may have perished alongside it. If these aspects are destroyed simply because the physical universe housing them no longer exists, it is considered a result of their interrelatedness with the physical plane, rather than direct manipulation" the page is clear. Destruction of a universe also causes destruction of laws, physics and causality alongside with cuz these metaphysical aspects interrelatedness with the universe. Neither Alien X, Celestialsapiens, Anlg directly focusing destroy these metaphysical aspects, only Anlg creating differents laws and physics within creating the universes, and Chrononavigator directly destroying causality which is can grant Causality Destruction,

Show clearly makes distinction between how Annhilargh not just destroyed entire Universe, but everything in it too. Not to mention many metaphysical things like Information, manna, conceptual manp type 1 that magic is, are not dependent on the physical Universe by definition. Proving that Destruction is of metaphysical in nature.

I don't have problem Annhilargh getting these abilities but Alien X and Celestialsapiens. Cuz they just created the these metaphysical aspects alongside with the Universe, which is there's no reason to assume that the Universe's physics and laws changed

I don't think Manna or Type 1 concepts within the Universe came into being as result of the creation of the Universe. Thats contradictory to its nature.

 

[Thermor]

Shouldn't NEP erasure stays? I dont think its dependant on the universe existence.

 

[AppleMaker]

Is Alien X still Hyperversal or no?

 

[Reiner04]

Is Alien X still Hyperversal or no?

He will be 10-B if this thread passes.

 

[Lort15]

Is Alien X still Hyperversal or no?

he is thats just ability removal and addition

 

[Hecky2222]

He will be 10-B

Still wank, that belongs under Lego

 

[DemonicDude]

Is Alien X still Hyperversal or no?

Ayyyyy didn't knew you like Ben Ten

 

[Aolphl]

Iftar huh

Not actually, I've only been able to fast for two days this year because of I'm about 750 km away from my family, my home and my city and I still haven't adapt to this new life, I guess this is why I got some mental issues

Embody: to represent a quality or an idea exactly.
I don't get why AE1 is being removed? Serena and Belicus quite literally represent the idea of love and rage, in the way they talk and respond to Ben's opinions. That's explained in the imgur link I believe.

I mean, I already pointed these things in the thread, main problem; they not talking about "embodying" something, they just talking about "personalities" which is irrelevant to AE1 stuff, also they doesn't have some abilities due they "embodying" something required by Abstract Existence;

Embodying a concept is not enough to obtain this ability, an abstract needs feats or reliable statements proving that the concept they represent grants them Immortality/Regeneration or control over the abstraction.

Dimensional Manipulation is simply manipulating dimensions. I don't think we have some separate definition of manipulation for dimensional manipulation. Destroying spacetime already gives spacetime manp so adding Higher dimensional manipulation for it again becomes reductant and unneeded.

At this point, I guess this topic needs to be own stuff discussion thread because seems like Dimensional Manipulation Page is outdated due DT's arguments acception, maybe the rules are changed but not the page itself

Show clearly makes distinction between how Annhilargh not just destroyed entire Universe, but everything in it too. Not to mention many metaphysical things like Information, manna, conceptual manp type 1 that magic is, are not dependent on the physical Universe by definition. Proving that Destruction is of metaphysical in nature.

I don't think Manna or Type 1 concepts within the Universe came into being as result of the creation of the Universe. Thats contradictory to its nature.

Hmm, actually, that's makes sense, I'm fine with creation of Mana & Type 1 Concepts/Magic and Info Manip Type 2 due these abilities' independent nature, I will revise the thread and add these abilities (and relevant ones) too, but only on Creation ways, cuz destroying them still part of AP, and I still disagree with Physics Manipulation, Law Manipulation and Causality Manipulation though cuz these abilities only coming from creating and destroying the Universe and doesn't need requiring create or destroy separately

 

[Aolphl]

Shouldn't NEP erasure stays? I dont think its dependant on the universe existence.

Yeah It will stay, I will revise the thread

 

[Aolphl]

Is Alien X still Hyperversal or no?

I know you joking but I will remind this, this crt only focusing abilities, not tiering or cosmology stuff, but maybe one day a hero comes and makes him Low 1-A, who knows?

 

[Thunderman101]

Agree with all

 

[Rosa]

Regeneration​

Pretty simple, a black hole's destruction causes a body lost everything to elementary particles level, not the entire body itself, and High Regen is quite enough provides gaining a body from destruction of black hole.

Agree with it being High instead of Low-Godly.

We don't see how GG gain his body back, black hole destroyed his body and the scene instantly changed, regeneration page says this;

Simple enough, since we don't see how he gain his body back, there's many different abilities can grant to a character their body body back, so we can't give High Regen directly, but since the very close ability is regeneration, because he regenerated his hand

Disagree, we know from prior scenes that Celestialsapiens can regenerate but we don't see any other ability which could explain this, and the reason for not allowing off-screen feats is due to potential continuity issues which aren't present here, so it should be 'Likely' not 'Possibly'.

Mind Manipulation​

The ability;

Mind Manipulation and Body Puppetry is completely different abilities and counterparts of each others, which is it's written on Body Puppetry page;

Simple, these two abilities giving extremely same results with working different methods, since we doesn't have a reason say X controlled their mind, Mind Manipulation should be go, Body Puppetry can stay.

Agree

BFR​

The ability;

"were capable of not just stopping Aggregor but sending the trio to the Forge Of Creation" the main problem; BFR specifically focusing on in-combat things, which is it's explaining in the ability's description;

Now you can say the page says "and they may be as simple as teleporting an opponent somewhere far far away to abandoning them in another time" but this supposed to be against the characters will's while in combat, the trio was already was wanna go to Forge of Creation, and they was looking for a way to go Forge of Creation, also we don't know how they will stop Aggregor, so this part should moved into their Teleportation section.

Disagree

Resistance to Vibration Manipulation​

The resistance;

The main problem here; Aggregor doesn't using Vibration Manipulation here, just striking and Mother Celestialsapien tanking which is only durability feat. No, if you say he using Vibration Manipulation, it's clearly can seen Mother Celestialsapien's hand's edge still shaking/vibrating, so there's no resisting anything, just durability thing. So this should be removed.

Agree

Other Some "destroying" and "creating" Abilities​

Basically just 99% disagreement

Some Powers and Abilities Alien X and Other Celestialsapiens Scaling for No Reason​

So, some of abilities in Alien X and Celestialsapiens' scaling (or just giving additional values) due to other characters some examples their Self-Sustenance scaling to Professor Paradox and their Technology Manipulation scaling to Upgrade, and the reasons are due stated they "omnipotent" or "can take any power" or just "Alien X can do anything". The main problem here, none of these does not justify to Alien X and other Celestialsapiens scaling to verse's characters powers and abilities. Power Inheritance Standards page says this;

Also Power Mimicry and Power Absorption pages says this;

Standards are standards. None of statements are not gives enough right to Alien X and other Celestialsapiens scale to other characters' specific powers and abilities, plus, Ben 10 Discussion Rules says this;

Rules are rules, due they are most powerful force in the verse, this doesn't mean they needs to scale the characters' powers in term of abilities and haxes, so in that case, these abilities, haxes and stats should be removed;

Disagree. The power mimicry doesn't require any NLF because the statement for Alien X is explicitly that he can mimic any power he knows of, which creates a caveat of what it encompasses, and the omnipotent statements are paired with statements of being able to do and manipulate anything by the most knowledgable in the verse. We're not saying "omnipotent = all powers", we're arguing contextually the way these statements are given it's inferring these things.

Some Other NLF Stuff​

So, some of abilities (e.g Data Manipulation) coming from "Alien X changed the Universe", Chadzmut's statement "we all know Celestialsapiens changing the Universe" and some Starbread's statement (ig?). Main issue, they not saying "Celestialsapiens or Alien X changed everything", they just saying "Alien X created the Universe and everything in it" and "Celestialsapiens changing the Universe all the time", this does not justify to assume they literally changed everything, they just doing sometimes on something, not everytime on everything.

This would be fair if we put on abilities like "sand manipulation (AX can control ANYTHING)", but we're using statements that AX can control all aspects of the universe to mean he can affect the literal fabric of the universe and its foundational components - in Ben 10 you cannot warp the universe in any absolute capacity without affecting these things. I don't see how this is a NLF.

Abstract Existence Type 1

Agree with Hellformer's response, these seem like nitpicks which don't refute AE.

Some Replacements​

Teleportation​

As mentioned in BFR section; "were capable of not just stopping Aggregor but sending the trio to the Forge Of Creation" ability should go to Teleportation section, the ability will look like this;

I'm not adding the Aggregor stuff cuz we don't know how they will stop him, that's an unknown.

Disagree, we know he can teleport people away against their will in combat (incurseans). Also maybe this is an actual site standard thing, but throwing someone out of orbit is BFR but teleporting someone to another reality isn't?

Stamina​

Disagree

 

[Lort15]

Rosa is involved? that's a big party then.

 

[Aolphl]

Rosa is involved? that's a big party then.

The god come to destroy our existence

 

[Aolphl]

Agree with Hellformer's response, these seem like nitpicks which don't refute AE.

We haven't even start the discussion about this buddy

 

[ShionAH]

I don't get why AE1 is being removed?

Abstract Existence is the ability to embody an abstraction, such as a concept, thought, or information, and being immortal thanks to it.

Embodying a concept is not enough to obtain this ability, an abstract needs feats or reliable statements proving that the concept they represent grants them Immortality/Regeneration or control over the abstraction.

 

[Reiner04]

cuz destroying them still part of AP,

I think even in case of destruction, destroying the physical Universe cannot really affect every Metaphysical aspects of the Universe. For instance CM type 1 by very definition is independent of the object or reality. Information type 2 don't get destroyed merely from AP. Mana exist as entire spacetime continuum and can exist even outside the Universe so it's dependence on the Universe doesn't exist. Chrononavigoator specifically said to destroy All of Time and Causality itself.

Our page clearly says if the destruction has been specified to be of metaphysical in nature then it is. I don't think it can specify anymore than literally making distinction of destruction of Time and Causality.

 

[Aolphl]

I think even in case of destruction, destroying the physical Universe cannot really affect every Metaphysical aspects of the Universe. For instance CM type 1 by very definition is independent of the object or reality. Information type 2 don't get destroyed merely from AP. Mana exist as entire spacetime continuum and can exist even outside the Universe so it's dependence on the Universe doesn't exist. Chrononavigoator specifically said to destroy All of Time and Causality itself.

Our page clearly says if the destruction has been specified to be of metaphysical in nature then it is. I don't think it can specify anymore than literally making distinction of destruction of Time and Causality.

I mean, I see the destruction of Universe also requires destruction of type 1 concepts and type 2 informations due these abilities' independent nature, but I couldn't say this also applies to Time and Causality itself cuz these two can be independent each other but still be depends to physical universe, and destroying universe itself still causes destruction of these aspects, which is can't give anything besides AP. I don't have Chrononavigator having this cuz it especially stated that this weapon can destroy causality itself, but I don't see any reason to give this to Alien X and other Celestialsapiens.

Also, I will inform you when I revised the thread so we can continue the other things; but this will probably happen tomorrow night cuz I need to go school and I need to give a project on Tuesday

 

[Lort15]

I mean, I see the destruction of Universe also requires destruction of type 1 concepts and type 2 informations due these abilities' independent nature, but I couldn't say this also applies to Time and Causality itself cuz these two can be independent each other but still be depends to physical universe, and destroying universe itself still causes destruction of these aspects, which is can't give anything besides AP. I don't have Chrononavigator having this cuz it especially stated that this weapon can destroy causality itself, but I don't see any reason to give this to Alien X and other Celestialsapiens.

Also, I will inform you when I revised the thread so we can continue the other things; but this will probably happen tomorrow night cuz I need to go school and I need to give a project on Tuesday

The causality stuff isn't special to Chrononavigator in the scan it was stated destroying all time would destroy causality as well, X also can destroy all time which means also destroying all causality itself
Note: ı'm just making it clear that causality stuff isn't special to Chrononavigator i have no opinion on the removal

Edit: nvm my deadass didn't see "and" part

 

[Reiner04]

I couldn't say this also applies to Time and Causality itself cuz these two can be independent each other but still be depends to physical universe

Yup but I am not talking about generic destruction of time which results in destruction of causality because of interdependence but rather the destruction that destroys causality itself in specific along with time. Our page is pretty clear about that if destruction has been specified to be of metaphysical in nature then it does grant manipulation of that aspect. The scan i am talking about is the following:



Notice how Paradox specifically mentioning causality itself after time. Making pretty clear distinction about the destruction of both. If the destruction of causality was indirect then it wouldn't have grant anything, yes. But generally, here, if fiction states that something has been destroyed, lets say soul or whatever then we take it for a word unless there is reason for not to take it. And i think here, in context and everything, we have pretty clear statement that chrononavigator was going to destroy causality itself because of its nature. Not as some sort of chain reaction.

Edit: nvm. I will comment later on why Alien X has has causality stuff.

 

[Lort15]

Btw Alien X's NPI about ghostfreak and big chill is coming from this not because he get it due to "he can do anything" it is just superior to them because he already has feats about it and he is Omnipotent (All powerful/Has the strongest hax in verse stuff)

 

[Aolphl]

The causality stuff isn't special to Chrononavigator in the scan it was stated destroying all time would destroy causality as well, X also can destroy all time which means also destroying all causality itself
Note: ı'm just making it clear that causality stuff isn't special to Chrononavigator i have no opinion on the removal

Edit: nvm my deadass didn't see "and" part

Yup but I am not talking about generic destruction of time which results in destruction of causality because of interdependence but rather the destruction that destroys causality itself in specific along with time. Our page is pretty clear about that if destruction has been specified to be of metaphysical in nature then it does grant manipulation of that aspect. The scan i am talking about is the following:



Notice how Paradox specifically mentioning causality itself after time. Making pretty clear distinction about the destruction of both. If the destruction of causality was indirect then it wouldn't have grant anything, yes. But generally, here, if fiction states that something has been destroyed, lets say soul or whatever then we take it for a word unless there is reason for not to take it. And i think here, in context and everything, we have pretty clear statement that chrononavigator was going to destroy causality itself because of its nature. Not as some sort of chain reaction.

Edit: nvm. I will comment later on why Alien X has has causality stuff.

Aight, this works for me, I will also add this to thread, but;

Also, I will inform you when I revised the thread so we can continue the other things; but this will probably happen tomorrow night cuz I need to go school and I need to give a project on Tuesday

 

[Aolphl]

Btw Alien X's NPI about ghostfreak and big chill is coming from this not because he get it due to "he can do anything" it is just superior to them because he already has feats about it and he is Omnipotent (All powerful/Has the strongest hax in verse stuff)

I mentioned this with every aspects in the thread