Low 1C - 1C Dc Comics Upgrade Attempt For Heralds (Every Universe Destruction Feat Would Be 2A)

[Antvasima]

The second series of scans are just 2-A.

If there are an infinite number of universes generated at every point in time, and those universes themselves can split infinitely at every point in time it would be a Power Set of Universes (Low 1-C).

But to my knowledge of Pre-Crisis, the most consistent depiction is infinite universes at different vibrational frequencies, which isn't Tier 1 generally.

Thank you for helping out. That seems reasonable to me.

 

[Qawsedf234]

1.Wouldn't each universe have the uncountable sets of infinities of timelines/futures?

I don't think so. If anything it's just an early version of DC's Hypertime, which goes beyond any singular universe.

They already have a lot of 2A feats so jumping to low 1C shouldn't make what the time trapper said an outlier or something

The gap between Low 1-C and 2-A is an uncountable infinite. Having any amoint of Tier 2 feats does not justify a Tier 1 rating.

 

[KirbyFan03]

I don't think so. If anything it's just an early version of DC's Hypertime, which goes beyond any singular universe.

The gap between Low 1-C and 2-A is an uncountable infinite. Having any amoint of Tier 2 feats does not justify a Tier 1 rating.

On an unrelated note

How do you feel about a timestream outside of space-time, is that low 1C?

 

[Ren_amamya]

Hello everyone,

I would like to present an argument in favor of a Low 1-C tier. Hopefully, it can provide useful insight and contribute to the ongoing tiering discussion.

In my opinion, for Low 1-C, an argument would need to be made explaining that the Bleed contains all infinite universes within itself, and that the Bleed is a higher-dimensional space that encompasses and accommodates those infinitely many 4-D universes. Under that interpretation, it could potentially qualify for Low 1-C:

The Bleed is a realm through which the time streams of all universes flow . It serves as the life-source of the entire Material Plane and has been described by Zillo monitor as the medium that prevents universes from merging, or collapsing into one another.

Existing completely outside the universes themselves, the Bleed contains and sustains their vibrational frequencies, making inter-universal travel possible. All Brane Universes reside within the Bleed, which functions as a transdimensional hyperspace connecting them and allowing passage between them.

The Bleed has also been referred to as an interdimensional void and a transdimensional realm. This nature explains the existence of infinite worlds, infinite Crises, and limitless potential within it

Furthermore, when taking these scans alongside the existential nature of the Bleed itself, it could reasonably be interpreted as a form of Higher-Dimensional Existence (HDE)

 

[Bimgus8010]

[

Hello everyone,

I would like to present an argument in favor of a Low 1-C tier. Hopefully, it can provide useful insight and contribute to the ongoing tiering discussion.

In my opinion, for Low 1-C, an argument would need to be made explaining that the Bleed contains all infinite universes within itself, and that the Bleed is a higher-dimensional space that encompasses and accommodates those infinitely many 4-D universes. Under that interpretation, it could potentially qualify for Low 1-C:



Furthermore, when taking these scans alongside the existential nature of the Bleed itself, it could reasonably be interpreted as a form of Higher-Dimensional Existence (HDE)

All of these scans are already accepted and listed for bleed in DC comics cosmology page



It's actually accepted to be 11D with the orrey.....so why we want to downgrade it to low 1C?

And who even scales to this?

 

[Bimgus8010]

The gap between Low 1-C and 2-A is an uncountable infinite. Having any amoint of Tier 2 feats does not justify a Tier 1 rating.

Well what about point number 3 of my post?

Do you think a single universe destruction feat would be 2A because the universe has the big central power battery located inside of it?

 

[Hayato5652]

[


All of these scans are already accepted and listed for bleed in DC comics cosmology page



It's actually accepted to be 11D with the orrey.....so why we want to downgrade it to low 1C?

And who even scales to this?

Perhaps the intention behind this comment was to scale the characters to the Bleed. It just needs to be determined which characters are actually capable of affecting the Bleed..

It is possible that characters who possess the power to destroy an infinite number of universes could disrupt the Bleed and exert some degree of influence over it, potentially qualifying them for an upgrade to Low 1-C

 

[Ren_amamya]

It's actually accepted to be 11D with the orrey.....so why we want to downgrade it to low 1C?

The Bleed should not be treated as a direct counterpart to the Orrery of Worlds. Rather, it functions as higher-dimensional domains embedded within the broader cosmological framework, alongside several realms such as Wonderworld and other . These realms collectively exist within the context of 11spatial-dimensional in orrery.

And who even scales to this?

Characters such as Time Trapper, Anti-Monitor, Parallax, and others who have demonstrated the capacity to create, erase or reshape over the multiversal timestream would be the requirements for influencing the Bleed.

 

[Bimgus8010]

Characters such as Time Trapper, Anti-Monitor, Parallax, and others who have demonstrated the capacity to create, erase or reshape over the multiversal timestream would be the requirements for influencing the Bleed.

So do we have on panel feats of these guys being able to specifically shake/affect bleed?

 

[Ren_amamya]

So do we have on panel feats of these guys being able to specifically shake/affect bleed?

Feats that have a major impact on the multiverse—such as Anti-Monitor destroying an infinite multiverse, Spectre recreating the multiverse and merging all histories and timelines into a single reality, or Parallax erasing all infinite timelines and histories before recreating them as one unified timestream—can reasonably be considered feats that affect the Bleed.

This is because such feats directly alter the entire history and temporal structure of the multiverse. Since the Bleed contains and connects the multiverse and its timelines.

 

[Bimgus8010]

Feats that have a major impact on the multiverse—such as Anti-Monitor destroying an infinite multiverse, Spectre recreating the multiverse and merging all histories and timelines into a single reality, or Parallax erasing all infinite timelines and histories before recreating them as one unified timestream—can reasonably be considered feats that affect the Bleed.

This is because such feats directly alter the entire history and temporal structure of the multiverse. Since the Bleed contains and connects the multiverse and its timelines.

Anti monitor
It's pretty clear that anti monitor said it himself that he destroyed infinite universes, then absorbed them in the form of his anti matter universe which had consume said universes
(this is actually my link/source which Is accepted and listed for Mobius page)

He didn't destroy nor absorbed the extra bleed space nor state what you said

Spectre
During this time, the multiverse had like 5 universes alive or something cuz the anti monitor performed mukbang on the other infinite amounts


There was no infinite timelines during that time sadly but that amped spectre does scale to that anti monitor

You can look at monitor page and look at his first key, that's the amount of universes that were alive during that time https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/The_Monitor

I'm too lazy to go over yellow entity's doing's

It needs to be specify and showed that bleed gets affected

Like this accepted source of mine which actually showed the orrey and the thing encompassing these universes/bleed being affected

It says that multiverse Is being messed up by Mr mxyzptlks and Batmite but there's no showings of 1A godsphere in the multiverse being affected so we can't scale this feat to 1A but instead 11D because only bleed and 11D orrey were shown

 

[Bimgus8010]

So does @Qawsedf234 agrees with the central power battery being 2A?

If so, we can add that in for more 2A justifications/elaborations

Like how ion hosts can recreate the central power battery

 

[Qawsedf234]

So does @Qawsedf234 agrees with the central power battery being 2A?

No.

Your scans come from Green Lantern: Willworld. These spaces are not universes in size or scope, so they're not Tier 2. Half managed to nearly escape a universe with a 1920s propeller aircraft and there's no indication that the Green Lantern bubbles have their own seperate space times.

 

[Bimgus8010]

No.

Your scans come from Green Lantern: Willworld. These spaces are not universes in size or scope, so they're not Tier 2. Half managed to nearly escape a universe with a 1920s propeller aircraft and there's no indication that the Green Lantern bubbles have their own seperate space times.

Everything and every consequences of the choices you see from willworld is apart of Hal and happens because of his thoughts/will

Tryna apply the logic of the plane thing you mentioned doesn't work for a place that has no logic




Which is why you have instances of a powerless Hal Jordan believing to be alive from the dead and succeeding



Because every failure and accomplishment that happens here is because of himself

Even the people existing here and their design and their powers are because of him

 

[Qawsedf234]

Everything and every consequences of the choices you see from willworld is apart of Hal and happens because of his thoughts/will

Tryna apply the logic of the plane thing you mentioned doesn't work for a place that has no logic

The issue here is that to get a Tier 2 rating you need to apply logic and spatial size to an area. If it's not physically a universe with an independent space-time then it's not Low 2-C.

Which is why you have instances of a powerless Hal Jordan believing to be alive from the dead and succeeding

That has nothing to do with the bubbles being universal in size.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

The issue here is that to get a Tier 2 rating you need to apply logic and spatial size to an area. If it's not physically a universe with an independent space-time then it's not Low 2-C.


That has nothing to do with the bubbles being universal in size.

Wouldn't the fact Universe sparks more timelines which sparks more timelines infinitely imply the existence of an Ad Infinitum mechanism which should grant Low 1-C for destroying the Universe?

 

[Qawsedf234]

Wouldn't the fact Universe sparks more timelines which sparks more timelines infinitely imply the existence of an Ad Infinitum mechanism which should grant Low 1-C for destroying the Universe?

It can. But you have to show that infinite universes are generated in a non-determinstic fashion. The universe must generate infinite variations without a deterministic input

 

[Bimgus8010]

The issue here is that to get a Tier 2 rating you need to apply logic and spatial size to an area. If it's not physically a universe with an independent space-time then it's not Low 2-C.


That has nothing to do with the bubbles being universal in size.

Lanterns actually know spacetime are in a universe

Which should mean that if a lantern were to be put in this test, they just stick the space and time in a universe

The pic is listed in cosmology page

Heck, having a universe inside Hal's ring and bubble universes inside willworld are already accepted and listed for Hal's page

 

[Lloydblitzed]

It can. But you have to show that infinite universes are generated in a non-determinstic fashion.

Wdym by that?

The universe must generate infinite variations without a deterministic input

As in, possible futures being made without a special power provoking their creation?

 

[Qawsedf234]

Lanterns actually know spacetime are in a universe

Let's say this does apply to the Lantern Battery when there's no indication of that, you've still not given a spatial size. The story has the realms be fluid, but at no point are they particularly large. Like I said Hal nearly flew out of the pocket space with a aircraft. To be rated Tier 2 you have to still be spatially large with a time axis, and those aren't shown in the story.

Wdym by that?

Universes must be generated infinitely by nature itself. A choice or deterministic action cannot play the main role in the split.

As in, possible futures being made without a special power provoking their creation?

No, possible futures must be generated without a living being making a choice. Marvel and DC both have universe splits due to character or deterministic action. For a power set of universes to be valid, you have to show that infinite universes are generated irrelevant of personal choice or have so many 2-A layers that you get recursions.

 

[Mythic381]

Lanterns actually know spacetime are in a universe

Isn't the point to prove is that it has an independent spacetime, not just a spacetime?

 

[Hecky2222]

i disagree with thread after looking to discussion and anti-feats presented here.

 

[PromptedElephant641]

Let’s drop the discussion of WillWorld as it only a part of the original post.

The WillWorld comic clearly states that Green Lanterns create universes. Regardless this does not upgrade or downgrade anyone as Green Lanterns already vary up to 2A based on the state of their Willpower and Imagination. This does not change anything for any current or any potential future profile, it only provides more evidence for what is already there.

Anyways: Post-Crisis Heralds will not become low-1C.

 

[Bimgus8010]

Let's say this does apply to the Lantern Battery when there's no indication of that, you've still not given a spatial size. The story has the realms be fluid, but at no point are they particularly large. Like I said Hal nearly flew out of the pocket space with a aircraft. To be rated Tier 2 you have to still be spatially large with a time axis, and those aren't shown in the story.

Speaking of time axis, wouldn't there being at least thousands of willworlds which are thousands of infinite seas that contain these bubbles (we shall ignore bubble universes for now)

Be 2B for the central power battery?



Also, can you check my other thread please . This is like most active you've ever been

 

[Qawsedf234]

Speaking of time axis, wouldn't there being at least thousands of willworlds which are thousands of infinite seas that contain these bubbles (we shall ignore bubble universes for now)

The most this would be is Low 2-C. For an infinite realm within the Gren Lantern battery. Not 2-C or 2-B.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

Universes must be generated infinitely by nature itself. A choice or deterministic action cannot play the main role in the split.


No, possible futures must be generated without a living being making a choice. Marvel and DC both have universe splits due to character or deterministic action. For a power set of universes to be valid, you have to show that infinite universes are generated irrelevant of personal choice or have so many 2-A layers that you get recursions.

As stated in Death Metal (2020) #4, the Multiverse is infinite with unique Universes (called Earths in DC). In Earth 2: World's End #1, its stated that every single decision taken naturally creates a new Earth, which is a process that would repeat itself infinitely. Morever, its said that not only events, but non events as well sparks countless new Realities, which should be proof of an Ad Infinitum process in every single Earth that should grant Low 1-C due to an uncountably infinite amount of Universes (Even if we somewhat dissmiss a single Universe being Low 1-C, its should still be upgraded to 2-A at the bare minimum)

 

[Qawsedf234]

As stated in Death Metal (2020) #4, the Multiverse is infinite with unique Universes (called Earths in DC). In Earth 2: World's End #1, its stated that every single decision taken naturally creates a new Earth,

Neither of these are more than 2-A.

Morever, its said that not only events, but non events as well sparks countless new Realities,

This is Low 1-C though. Reading the comic (its the Next miniseries from 2006), it uses string cosmology which indicates quantum wave form collapse. Though this would scale to Bleed Space and no individual universe.

The reason Superman/Next were in that situation was because a Chrono-Monster was collasping space-time in that area. So while this does show that the greater cosmology is string based, I don't think any universe scales by itself.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

Neither of these are more than 2-A.

Well combined with the possible future scans from earlier, it would mean that an infinite amount of Earth exists and are continiously generate while generating 2-A structures everytime which should still qualify as uncountable

 

[PromptedElephant641]

There seems to be a general misunderstanding by everyone on this thread as to how universes in DC comics works.

There are designated universes. These universes have a label of some kind (such as Earth-1, Earth-2, New Earth etc) This can be a number, A string of letters, A combination of both numbers and letters, some are even represented by symbols, and most exotically there are even unnumbered worlds. These are the main universes of the multiverse.

Each of these main universes has a spatial and temporal half. On both the time and space halves, there are branches that form out into infinity at every point in a universe’s timeline. On the time half they are referred to as timelines and on the space half they have been most frequently referred to as quantum offshoot universes (as well as other names). These timelines and offshoot universes are part of the overall space-time structure of its parent universe, they are NOT separate designated worlds in the multiverse.

The reality is most characters, such as Herald tiers like Superman, ARE NOT impacting the entire space time structure of a single universe. Beings that can include low tier cosmic beings like The Time Trapper, The Infinite Man, Imperiex Prime, and Zero Hour Parallax.

I do not know why people are mentioning the Bleed as it is not at all relevant here. The Bleed exists in between all the levels of the Divine Continuum including even the Fifth Dimension (and likely beyond but Elizio33 and only ever got up to the Fifth Dimensional portion in our discussions of the Bleed in the main DC comics discussion thread) as such it is not something that you can scale a person to without extensive evidence. Only beings like Monarch who have mastery over the Bleed scale to its upper levels. There is of course the local portions of the Bleed, which most people think of when discussing the Bleed, that encompass all universes and timelines but even this lesser version is not relevant to the conversation at hand.

In my first post on this website I said I would eventually get around to this stuff when I have time:

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/U..._How_many_Universes_in_the_main_DC_Multiverse

 

[Lloydblitzed]

There seems to be a general misunderstanding by everyone on this thread as to how universes in DC comics works.

There are designated universes. These universes have a label of some kind. This can be a number, A string of letters, A combination of both numbers and letters, some are even represented by symbols, and most exotically there are even unnumbered worlds. These are the main universes of the multiverse.

There's no "finite" amount of Universes. This is even addressed in our own cosmological page

Each of these main universes has a spatial and temporal half. On both the time and space halves, there are branches that form out into infinity at every point in a universe’s timeline. On the time half they are referred to as timelines and on the space half they have been most frequently referred to as quantum offshoot universes (as well as other names). These timelines and offshoot universes are part of the overall space-time structure of its parent universe, they are NOT separate designated worlds in the multiverse.

The entire point was that a single Earth possess multiple possible timelines. Them not being their own "Earths" is irrelevant, and these possible future are clearly showcased to be their own seperated timelines (Future End run presenting multiple seperate possible timelines proves this)

The reality is most characters, such as Herald tiers like Superman, ARE NOT impacting the entire space time structure of a single universe. Beings that can include low tier cosmic beings like The Time Trapper, The Infinite Man, Imperiex Prime, and Zero Hour Parallax.

This is the same Superman who splits universes apart? I don't understand that argument

 

[PromptedElephant641]

There's no "finite" amount of Universes. This is even addressed in our own cosmological page

The entire point was that a single Earth possess multiple possible timelines. Them not being their own "Earths" is irrelevant, and these possible future are clearly showcased to be their own seperated timelines (Future End run presenting multiple seperate possible timelines proves this)

This is the same Superman who splits universes apart? I don't understand that argument

You did not seem to understand my post. I never said there were finite universes. On the contrary I literally provided my blog that lists essentially every instance in all of DC Comics history in which it is stated that there are infinite (or more) universes.

Timelines and quantum offshoot universes are contained within the overall space time of a designated universe.

There is no evidence in that scan that Superman was separating the entire space time of two “designated” universes. He is merely shown separating two random realities created by Auteur.io.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

There is no evidence in that scan that Superman was separating the entire space time of two “designated” universes. He is merely shown separating two random realities created by Auteur.io.

An amped Mother Mayhem can flood entire Earths with her powers, and Raven directly downscales to her via wisthanding her attacks for a prolonged amount of time which should also chainscale to many other Heralds including Superman

 

[PromptedElephant641]

Mother Blood at that point had control over the ENTIRETY of the RED so obviously Heralds do not scale.

Raven even says the following:

“Her mind is too loud. I feel her joy and terror as she attains her goal. She is the most terrifying being I have ever encountered. Nothing human should be this powerful. I feel other souls screaming, all but drowned out by Mother Blood's presence.”

 

[Lloydblitzed]

Mother Blood at that point had control over the ENTIRETY of the RED so obviously Heralds do not scale.

How does this contradict the fact she not only wisthood but quickly recovered from the attack

Raven even says the following:

“Her mind is too loud. I feel her joy and terror as she attains her goal. She is the most terrifying being I have ever encountered. Nothing human should be this powerful. I feel other souls screaming, all but drowned out by Mother Blood's presence.”

How does this prove anything? This is the same woman who forced Neron to flee as well due to her powers, and could wipe out a Universe in her post crisis era

 

[PromptedElephant641]

How does this contradict the fact she not only wisthood but quickly recovered from the attack

How does this prove anything? This is the same woman who forced Neron to flee as well due to her powers

It is an obvious outlier. That should be very apparent. Her making Neron flee is hard to even scale, as like with all beings of the Sphere of the Gods, he has many different types of manifestations for interacting with different planes of existence. She did not defeat the 1A true form of Neron. She simply isn’t that powerful. Trigon is not even a true demon as he is merely the cast of evil of the realm Azarath so it is not as if Raven even has an actual link to the Sphere of the Gods through her lineage.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

It is an obvious outlier. That should be very apparent.

Prove this? . If you're argument is gonna be associating my args with 1-A peak forms to call them "outliers", than this isn't the best strat

Her making Neron flee is hard to even scale, as like with all beings of the Sphere of the Gods, he has many different types of manifestations for interacting with different planes of existence.

We can just scale to him to feats done by his "Mortal Form". I don't how that make him "hard to scale"

She did not defeat the 1A true form of Neron. She simply isn’t that powerful.

Not a soul argued this btw

Trigon is not even a true demon as he is merely the cast of evil of the realm Azarath so it is not as if Raven even has an actual link to the Sphere of the Gods through her lineage.

Trigon is an extinction level threat to the JL, and beside that, I never argued anything about 1-A Base Raven

 

[PromptedElephant641]

Does Raven scale to the entirety of the Red? Hell no. Argument presented. Argument finished. There is nothing more to be discussed on that front.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

Does Raven scale to the entirety of the Red? Hell no. Argument presented. Argument finished. There is nothing more to be discussed on that front.

My argument was that she downscale to the feat. You need to actually provide evidence that she cannot scale to MM or the Red, not random misinterpretations of what I claimed

 

[PromptedElephant641]

It is not a misinterpretation. She cannot downscale from MM because she simply does not have feats on that level. Downscaling would imply that she is weaker but somewhat comparable when that is definitely not the case. It is obvious that Raven being at all comparable to MM who has total control of the Red is an outlier. It is certainly not something that can be used for a scaling chain to other Heralds either as such a feat is far far beyond low-1C or whatever it is that people are trying to argue for at the moment. It is not really clear what is trying to be achieved with this thread as it has strayed so far from the original post.

The Red is one of the Elementary Parliaments, forces of nature convened by the Lords of Order. It is a low-1A structure. Raven does not have any feats on that level or any mechanism that would allow her to be that powerful. Again, scaling Raven to MM is beyond the scope of this thread.

 

[Bimgus8010]

The most this would be is Low 2-C. For an infinite realm within the Gren Lantern battery. Not 2-C or 2-B.

A single willworld is infinite as it's literally called an infinite sea where Hal makes bubbles



Since 1 willworld can be low 2C

Wouldn't thousands of willworlds be 2B?

Because it's thousands of infinite realms