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Is him treating his creations which includes the emanations of heaven as fantasy/dreams/figment of his imaginations not an extra 1D?
Worlds collide 1994 issue 1
Icon 1994 issue 17
Blood syndicate 1994 issue 17
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General DC Comics Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Confluctor
- Start date
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- dc comics
Is him treating his creations which includes the emanations of heaven as fantasy/dreams/figment of his imaginations not an extra 1D?
Worlds collide 1994 issue 1
Icon 1994 issue 17
Blood syndicate 1994 issue 17
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prime didn't scale to mxyzptlk until today only because mxyzptlk was considered powerless...
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The Mxyzptlk stuff is only applicable to a different key of Superboy Prime (as Superman Prime). Regardless, Superboy Prime will be dealt with when I get around to making the revision for him whenever that ends up being. The reality is there are far more pressing things to deal with regarding DC revisions than a single character who nobody else scales to.
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Yeah i know, im just confused with tiering.
"There is no outliers in this lvl. Either you are or you are not qualitatively superior"
It means no matter Mxyzptlk was powerless or not, as long as mxyzptlk is 5th dimensional being, superman prime should have scale to him. But superman prime still didn't scale to mxyzptlk until today because mxyzptlk was considered powerless. And other case, prime can affect TDK's power to fading out of TDK's body by his attack as wonder woman have done and tdk actually used his crisis energy to blast prime when tdk got pressure from prime.
The Darkest Knight, who is stronger than anti crisis ww & able to tank a cisis energy blast from Perpetua with his body but was damaged and reacted when a shrunken planet was thrown at him. Tdk seems to be able to tank the crisis energy blast better than this.
This inconsistent only brings H1A to ww who cant kill tdk alone by herself, she push him to the death sun that also killed her.
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Guardians of the universe and Alan Scott should have chaos manipulation (idk what type)
As the guardians created the starheart, a crystal containing all elements of chaos in the universe. A piece of the starheart choosing Alan Scott as the wielder (justice league of America 2006 issue 45)
with Alan Scott being able to tame the chaos of the starheart (justice league of America 2006 issue 48)
But I'm not sure what type of chaos manip would it be if it could drain energies of a green lantern's ring, specifically bloodlusted Kyle rayner (justice league of America 2006 issue 48)
Since there is a high 3A space in Kyle's ring listed in his page
Edit : I think this is also law manipulation
As the guardians created the starheart, a crystal containing all elements of chaos in the universe. A piece of the starheart choosing Alan Scott as the wielder (justice league of America 2006 issue 45)
with Alan Scott being able to tame the chaos of the starheart (justice league of America 2006 issue 48)
But I'm not sure what type of chaos manip would it be if it could drain energies of a green lantern's ring, specifically bloodlusted Kyle rayner (justice league of America 2006 issue 48)
Since there is a high 3A space in Kyle's ring listed in his page
Edit : I think this is also law manipulation
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Nonynho
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DC Pre Crisis Cosmology
INTRODUCTION This CRT will attempt to be as comprehensive and direct as possible regarding the DC Universe in its old phase, seeking to go through the entire cosmology already well defined as the "pre-crisis", and then present the levels in an updated form. Much has been said recently about the...
This here needs some inputs
Here's a blog i made with OP's propositions but more readable :>
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Because thought robot and mandrakk have the same Nature with the monitors which is "pure thought" i think this one makes these two r not beyond monitors. Their potential not as great as TDK.
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It was because after Scott Snyder changed the cosmology, The Monitors of Nil and consequently The Thought Robot and Mandrakk became irrelevant. There should be two profiles for the monitors: the original Grant Morrison version and a Scott Snyder cosmology key as they are radically different. In reality, as much as people in the debating space like to go on about The Thought Robot and Mandrakk, they only in 2 comics and did not have that large of an impact on the overarching plot of DC. Since their original appearance, there have been only a handful of references to them.
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Yeah like i've told earlier, cas isn't really necessary. Even after cas destroyed, multiverse still survive a greater threat than final crisis or mandrakk, which is TDK in death metal event. All this because of they're actually alive or embedded in reader's mind. This reader's belief(actual reader in real life)of "To be Continued" rule how the stories will be written. So rather than actual plot manipulation for cas, i find it cas was assisted by nature of story itself that will never make the multiverse being destroyed, so these multiverse or characters will always have a stories across decade outlast their past writers. Which is why nix reply to mandrakk like this :
"This multiverse has natural defense none of you could imagine"
After mandrakk saying "i saw the book of limbo, everything was all flame" in the end of final crisis (after cas destroyed beyond repair).
"Im living in your head(reader). As long as there's one of you(reader), there'll be a hundred of us"
"Unmaking DCU to the point of destruction & showing how its internal rules homeostatically reset it, Superman always saves the day or he's not Superman. Its a self perpetuating idea"
"Its another way to say on this relentless idea of realistic superhero comics, because the 'realism' in this one comes from the reader's acknowledgment that what he holds in his hands is a section of a real, alternate universe of superheroes, living out lives across decades"
This self perpetuating idea of superman makes character Superman have stories that always continue until today, so the story of superman is indestructble.
"First off, you've spoken about the power of story, and the power of the DC Universe in particular, and expressed a certain level of awe at how these creations and these stories outlast their creators significantly. This sentiment seems to play out directly when Zillo Valla faces down Mandrakk's dream of the ultimate void by telling him she found a story in the germ world that's unstoppable and indestructible, about a child rocketed to Earth from a doomed planet. Is that pretty much what you were going for there?"
Morrison : yeah, pretty much.
I have written this many times, but there are still who don't understand and asking "how story of superman grant Superman something" uhh. Indestructble story of superman means character Superman always have a story, so any narrative saying he's dead/destroyed are false.
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My point is Dav Novu the first monitor was sent by the overvoid(primal monitor) as a probe to check the flaw that is DC creation. So he is much like hand of source like Perpetua who came from outside DC to create DC.
Synder reference to Mandrakk was because crisis energy I think as that perpetua used it to create DC and its Vampiric nature.
But we know monitors in its entirety were mentioned as parasite who feed on the stories of multiverse. Dax Novu was the being who devour all stories after being corrupted by them as the cosmically charge evil editor.
Screenshot 2026 07 09 144301 hosted at ImgBB
Image Screenshot 2026 07 09 144301 hosted on ImgBB
ibb.co
Also the Mandarkk synder shown clook closer to the Rox ogama(a weaker monitor who became Mandrakk) from Dark Multiverse.
Any way thats all I can say but yeah Morrrison and Synder vision dont flow well together.
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Yeah, they don't flow well together as Morrison said, scott didnt discuss with him about DC cosmology.My point is Dav Novu the first monitor was sent by the overvoid(primal monitor) as a probe to check the flaw that is DC creation. So he is much like hand of source like Perpetua who came from outside DC to create DC.
Synder reference to Mandrakk was because crisis energy I think as that perpetua used it to create DC and its Vampiric nature.
But we know monitors in its entirety were mentioned as parasite who feed on the stories of multiverse. Dax Novu was the being who devour all stories after being corrupted by them as the cosmically charge evil editor.
Screenshot 2026 07 09 144301 hosted at ImgBB
Image Screenshot 2026 07 09 144301 hosted on ImgBB
Also the Mandarkk synder shown clook closer to the Rox ogama(a weaker monitor who became Mandrakk) from Dark Multiverse.
Any way thats all I can say but yeah Morrrison and Synder vision dont flow well together.
But reader's belief still shown in scott's run. Here is prime belief of "To be continued" so he doesnt need to finish the story.
He doesnt take any character death serious anymore, so any threat to the multiverse will be neutralized by nature of story.(How its internal rules homeostatically reset it).
Shown again prime doesnt take death serious anymore in current run, because everything will be normal again.
"Check this comic out, superman died, and he came back. History reboot over and over again, like a lame reincarnation. He(Superman) will return like he always does, and he will spank your behind"
Similiar with author idea of batman, he will never die so death of endless will never be able to take him. He will survive because that's what he does and story will always goes on. The idea of batman survive isnt rejected, it was rejected because of less action & vertigo character.
That is nature of dc multiverse
So the conclusion is Prime beyond fiction.
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AyOgUyS
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...What?
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It really is the most clear cut feat in that entire event and yet for some reason people try to cope about it not being what it obviously is.
"Uh yeah bro, The Darkest Knight was obviously full of shit when he said he couldn't beat Prime that's why he was lying on the ground defeated after their fight and why he screamed "No!" when Prime punched him and why Prime's own narration said that he could take TDK's power then and there if he wanted to. Clearly all of that was just TDK holding back against Prime."
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"it also doesnt count because prime got strong out of nowhere!!" Like what? I know that statement is getting removed from his current profile but even then thats a terrible argument lol. Do we truly think the TDK would willingly be on his knees FOR ANYONE just for manipulation, his ego would not allow that at all. He was trying to talk his way out of the beating prime was giving him..
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We have ALL completely misinterpreted that comic, The Batman Who Chuckles was getting on his knees for other reasons 
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People also ignore that the issue was co-written by Johns (basically the guy who ‘made’ Prime an entirely new character after COIE) and Snyder (who created TDK and wrote the entire event) as a way to provide closure to Prime’s arc. It’s not some wild inconsistency written by someone who didn’t know what they were doing.
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The batman who larps is freaky? Did he enjoy prime time?We have ALL completely misinterpreted that comic, The Batman Who Chuckles was getting on his knees for other reasons
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Rift creatiing "Two Heavens and Two Earths" is obviously referencing THE BIBLE, where the phrase "Heaven and Earth" and he follows it up with another Biblical referece "On the Seventh Day, I rested". The entire World's Colliide crossover iis about him believing he created the Dakotaverse and the DCU. Static #14 is right after he fused them both together. Rift is using Biblical language because he thinks he's a god. Context clues and the fact no angels or the like appear in World's Collide should have told you that.A being named the rift is someone who has made 2 heavens and destroyed them (static 1993 issue 14)
This follows as the entire crossover explictly frames Rift as not actually having created the two universes but believing he did because he is crazy. They predate his existence as Rift because when he was Fred Bentson, both existed before him and the insomnia and experiemnts drove him nuts and made him belieive he created both universes. You can't take his stat
Yes, because they banished him there at the end of World's Collide
Scale Rift to fusing 2 universes together but don't just go "He said two heavens and two earths" and extrapolate that to the Godsphere/Emanation. Use what fits the actual context.
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The problem here is that Prime is so insanely inconsistent, but maybe we could give him a variable tier, as he can go up and down between Wonder Girl to Hand of Creation level from story to story. 
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Hi, i want to ask, i probably miss something.
why is superman destroy the masterpiece only count as 2A. It should be 1-A+ isn't it?
Beholdd the multiverse! As you live it.
As we see mxyzptlk's finger didn't pointing to orerry even though they live there, maybe because multiverse in this arc is refer to that map and World Forger want to avoid the judgement of the source who is beyond this map. And he said he want to replace this one(monitor sphere) when he's in monitor sphere. I mean, does the source only judge the orerry and the rest of Map would remain?
Oh yeah, in World forger's masterpiece there's also apokolips right? Which means there's an entire map??
why is superman destroy the masterpiece only count as 2A. It should be 1-A+ isn't it?
Beholdd the multiverse! As you live it.
As we see mxyzptlk's finger didn't pointing to orerry even though they live there, maybe because multiverse in this arc is refer to that map and World Forger want to avoid the judgement of the source who is beyond this map. And he said he want to replace this one(monitor sphere) when he's in monitor sphere. I mean, does the source only judge the orerry and the rest of Map would remain?
Oh yeah, in World forger's masterpiece there's also apokolips right? Which means there's an entire map??
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Prime? Inconsistent?The problem here is that Prime is so insanely inconsistent, but maybe we could give him a variable tier, as he can go up and down between Wonder Girl to Hand of Creation level from story to story.
He's one of the rare comic book characters who isn't. His rare low points can be written off as outliers (we do the same for high points, so it should also be done in reverse)
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The Highs severely outweigh the two low points thoHe has both high and low points, so I stand by what I said earlier.
With the Shazam and black Adam one having context, he wasn't full power because he just got out of a red sun prison. So we can't even count that one against him.
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Hello ant, broke the construction cant be considered as outlier as damaging a character with a certain durability right?He has both high and low points, so I stand by what I said earlier.
What do you think about superman broke the Forger's masterpiece that replace the sphere of gods and monitor sphere?
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Wonder Girl drew blood from Prime, and I think that other comparable characters, such as Conner Kent, have also damaged Prime. He has highs and lows.
I think that it works in terms of destroying the base level regular collection of 52 universes in DC Comics after multiple sun-dips, but Superman had been elevated to a higher level of existence by Mxyzptlk, so I do not think that he inherently scales to the World Forger's full scale of power.
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As far as i know mxyzptlk just infused Superman with a Fifth dimensional energy but it could be a lie considering world forger & mxyzptlk have a strategy to isolated superman far away from his friend because superman with his idealistic mind will fail world forger's plan to avoid a judgement from the source even though he's friend like ww and other(except Batman) disagree with that plan. This implies there's a reason why superman is the only one got tricked by these two(world forger & mxy).
Temporary power is also normal in DC right. Because if K.O superman is permanent then Superman's concept of being a Hero in metropolis will not relevant anymore, so the story must be in universal level. It Will reduce the creativity of each author during making a comic.
Temporary power is also normal in DC right. Because if K.O superman is permanent then Superman's concept of being a Hero in metropolis will not relevant anymore, so the story must be in universal level. It Will reduce the creativity of each author during making a comic.
Wonder Girl drew blood from Prime, and I think that other comparable characters, such as Conner Kent, have also damaged Prime. He has highs and lows.
I think that it works in terms of destroying the base level regular collection of 52 universes in DC Comics after multiple sun-dips, but Superman had been elevated to a higher level of existence by Mxyzptlk, so I do not think that he inherently scales to the World Forger's full scale of power.
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Look. In DC Comics a character's scale of power is currently automatically drastically increased when they are placed on a higher plane of existence. It did not use to be that way during Grant Morrison's "Crisis Times Five" storyarc, but currently it apparently is.
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Flash was knocked out by a piece paper, died by a normal bullet and his rogue gallery has a normal dude with a freeze gun. He's 1-A because we don't take garbage writing anti feats as gospel.
A baby punching you square in the nose will hurt and even draw blood, you are still leagues above a baby in terms of strength and power. Wolverine can make hulk bleed, drawing blood means nothing
A baby punching you square in the nose will hurt and even draw blood, you are still leagues above a baby in terms of strength and power. Wolverine can make hulk bleed, drawing blood means nothing
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He shouldn't but we know it was Six Dimensional Sun Amplification rather than higher level making him WF lvlWonder Girl drew blood from Prime, and I think that other comparable characters, such as Conner Kent, have also damaged Prime. He has highs and lows.
I think that it works in terms of destroying the base level regular collection of 52 universes in DC Comics after multiple sun-dips, but Superman had been elevated to a higher level of existence by Mxyzptlk, so I do not think that he inherently scales to the World Forger's full scale of power.
I used to debate it against Superman fans back then. Heck even Snyder confirmed it was six dimensional sun amplification. In same comic despite being at same lvl of existence Superman can't even stretch WF, WF leaves him completely powerless(Though not fully cuz we see how he can fly and survive in space) and Superman could knock out him only after sun dipping in 6D
So I personally say
World Forger >>>>>>>>>>>> Superman
Superman 6D Sun Amped > World Forger
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Well, the World Forger is far more powerful than Superman, but Superman externally increased to the same level of existence AND receiving a multiple sun-dip amplification in addition to that can match him.
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Then how to get a tier by chainscalling exactly. I think the rules need to be changed because if superman fought darkseid in higher plan it will be called "character got extreme power up when he's in higher plane" but if superman fought darkseid in earth then this "emanation" thing will showed up.Look. In DC Comics a character's scale of power is currently automatically drastically increased when they are placed on a higher plane of existence. It did not use to be that way during Grant Morrison's "Crisis Times Five" storyarc, but currently it apparently is.
And my concern here is more in construction destruction feat rather than damaging world forger. And Multiverse in this arc doesn't refer only to orerry as shown in scan before :
"behold the multiverse as you live it"
As you live it, but his finger didn't point to orerry but Limbo, because in this arc, the term "Multiverse" refers to the Map of the Multiverse, which includes the Monitor Sphere and the Sphere of the Gods, not just the Orrery of Worlds. Since World Forger's goal here was to avoid the source's judgment, which comes from beyond the Map, it wouldn't make sense for only the Orrery to be judged while the Monitor Sphere and the Sphere of the Gods were excluded.
This is why World Forger's masterpiece is shown to contain its own Sphere of the Gods(Apokolips). Moreover, World Forger explicitly states that his masterpiece was meant to replace the Monitor Sphere, further indicating that it was intended to replace the entire Multiverse represented by the Map, not merely the Orrery. He also stated that was whole new multiverse.
Where mxyzptlk fingers pointing to is already clear what "Multiverse" refers to in this arc. Furthermore wf's plan is avoiding the source judgement.
Anti Crisis is a temporary power but it still listed in profile, Anti Crisis WW doesn't have impressive destruction feat either, while superman does.
I thought destruction feats would be a straight up valid feat, different with damaging a character with a certain durability (chainscalling)
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Guys come on seriously? We have all been over this numerous times. Superman does not scale to the Sixth Dimension. This has been throughly discussed to a tiring degree.
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Im not focused on damaging world forger.
You saying X = sixth Dimension
Superman X = Multiverse X
Superman = Multiverse
Multiverse is shown to replace monitor sphere & have its own sphere of gods.
Multiverse = 1-A+
Superman = 1-A+
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Many disagree with this viewpoint.
The moment we start talking about "6D suns!!!!" (Something never mentioned in the story) It looks like bad downplay
Also treating suns like they are this rare amp that superman can't access at anytime is funny, he can sun dip in seconds if he wanted too. It's literally his power source, it's not a AMP like Golden WW for example
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Superman barely has legitimate regular 3d multiversal feats. His current rating is already quite generous. Attempting to try to scale him to 1A or above is literal insanity. He has NO possible way of reaching 1A power anyway. He is not like The Flash or other such beings who have 1A or above power sources. He is powered by sunlight.
In conclusion solar panels are 1A, Superman is a solar panel, humans can break solar panels. Therefore humans are above Superman and other Kryptonians.
In conclusion solar panels are 1A, Superman is a solar panel, humans can break solar panels. Therefore humans are above Superman and other Kryptonians.
AyOgUyS
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Franky. I’m confused on what you’re trying to argue. We have a whole note explaining why Superman’s level of power he displayed against the World Forger is a special circumstance. If you believe Superman has a canonical legitimate metaphysical connection to the very plot, why aren’t you using that as justification?
