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Thunder Mcqueen CRT

So i've finally come around to Stone Ocean, and looking back, Mcqueen's page is an absolute lie.

Starting off with the most obvious part, Durability Negality. There's absolutely, unquestionably, not a single evidence of it ignoring durability. The stand's ability works by it manifesting on the user and causing damage by morphing to fir the criteria, its simply using its C Destructive Power to reflect damage (damage reflection). This is further noted by the fact that the only person it ever was used on, Ermes, has exactly 0 durability feats apparently. Death Manipulation is on the same boat, as something as simple as Ermes giving herself an extra nose countered the ability.

One thing less obvious but not much more so, is thatthe page says that the stand will return any damage done by the user to the affected person, but this is demostraby false. In two instances Mcqueen was directly attacked by Ermes, and in neither was she affect by it (those being, one Ermes wacking him a broom, and the other Kiss's sticker slamming his head so hard he instantly passed out). When the ability is working, even non-lethal damage can be trasnferred as seen by Mcqueen's failed electricution transferring to Ermes still, so its clear to say that the stand cannot reflect damage that is not self-harm (which is litterally the entire point of the stand, that's the whole theme of it. its the self-unalive stand.).

Furthermore, the page is missing a big weakness of Mcqueen, that being that if he's rendered unconscious, the stand disc containing highway hell will fall out, and so it will either momentary disable the ability or straight up make him lose it if someone were to steal the disc (which is litterally what happened in his fight)

Lastly, his intelligence sections is "Average, but knowledgeable in ways of killing himself" extremely not good, to say the least. bud tries suffocationx2. self-stabbing his arm, and eletricution, that's not being knowlegeable, that's just... basic intelligence. Though to his credit, he did instantly call out Ermes' bluff, so that should be listed instead on the page.
 
Click to expand...
Yeah, I saw Highway to Hell not like a Stand that transfer damage per se but rather one that mimicry the way its user is inflicting self-harm, Costello using a second nose to avoid suffocation is proof of that (otherwise, it would had try to choke the girl independent of the amount of noses). Being generous, this is a conditional Damage Transfer.

Death manip is also a no no; killing because of damage inflicted is never death manipulation. The Stand transfer the form of damage, do not replicate the wound itself. (I also recoll the man losing consciousness due the electric shock, but Costella stayed awake despite taking the damage.)

Also agree with the last two stances.
 
Well, there's one way to kill the joke, but I agree with this one. I do wonder if Thunder McQueen will be usable after this CRT, though.
 
I mean yeah, it's just Damage Transferal, I thought that was obvious, how come the profile added so much more?
 
The_Pink_God said:
Christ, I know people speed reading Part 6 to get to Part 7 is a meme but I never thought they straight up wouldn't read the damn manga
Click to expand...
If this weren't a CRT where we gotta take things a little seriously, I would've made a "I thought it was a joke" fish meme rn.
 
There is some pretty major issues with what's being stated, even if the profile is ass and wanked.

Ill comment when im free.
 
This has merit, yes, but a bunch of this is incorrect, or arriving at a conclusion, whether that conclusion is right or wrong, with faulty or incorrect info.
Overlord775 said:
So i've finally come around to Stone Ocean, and looking back, Mcqueen's page is an absolute lie.

Starting off with the most obvious part, Durability Negality.
Click to expand...

"It could probably even pull someone in if he starves to death", from the manga itself.
This is a pretty self-evident "durability doesn't matter" type of death. His page is definitely subject to extreme NLF, but this CRT is kind of going in the exact opposite direction, which is equally bad.
There's absolutely, unquestionably, not a single evidence of it ignoring durability.
Click to expand...
We literally see it do so on panel, you'll see this scan thrice more.
Overlord775 said:
The stand's ability works by it manifesting on the user and causing damage by morphing to fir the criteria,
Click to expand...
Incorrect, it does do that in regards to some damage and deaths, but that isn't always the case. It's not mutual.

For example, the Stand doesn't always manifest itself, in fact, every time pure physical damage happened, the Stand itself didn't actually do anything to cause it. The damage merely spontaneously occurred.
It seems to be, based on what we're told and shown, a mix of attack reflection, and damage reflection, based on what he is experiencing, and what damage he has taken himself.

Overlord775 said:
its simply using its C Destructive Power to reflect damage (damage reflection).
Click to expand...
This isn't actually true, at all, where are you getting this? They never, at any point, in anything state that's what the C entails.
It's demonstrably not even true either.
Do not, under any circumstances, just make stuff up and state it as objective, it's misleading and dishonest.
Overlord775 said:
This is further noted by the fact that the only person it ever was used on, Ermes, has exactly 0 durability feats apparently.
Click to expand...
What? She's well into 9-B? I mean yeah her profile is actual trash and should be deleted, but that doesn't change she has some 9-B dura stuff.
Overlord775 said:
Death Manipulation is on the same boat, as something as simple as Ermes giving herself an extra nose countered the ability.
Click to expand...
This, is half fair, the Stand definitely isn't the best and has limits, but, he hadn't actually died either which is something to take into account when indexing what he's capable of, as we know HtH never actually hit its full ability, as they state as much.

Overlord775 said:
One thing less obvious but not much more so, is thatthe page says that the stand will return any damage done by the user to the affected person, but this is demostraby false. In two instances Mcqueen was directly attacked by Ermes, and in neither was she affect by it (those being, one Ermes wacking him a broom, and the other Kiss's sticker slamming his head so hard he instantly passed out).
Click to expand...
And this, is explicitly false, case 1, Ermes wasn't a target yet, which I feel is self-evident, you kinda have to actually be in the Stand's attack, to be affected by said Stand, which they state directly anyway, this is like wondering why a random dude who doesn't care or think about WoU, doesn't get attacked by Calamity, it's simply because that person isn't in the Stand's attack yet or hasn't fulfilled the requirement to activate it.
It isn't until after that scene, that she gets pulled in because blud falls in love with her, before that, his Stand wasn't active. Which is the method btw, HtH only reflects stuff, if McQueen wants that person to die with him for whatever reason.

And the second, literally knocked the Stand out of him, canceling the ability by virtue of no longer having it🗿
Overlord775 said:
When the ability is working, even non-lethal damage can be trasnferred as seen by Mcqueen's failed electricution transferring to Ermes still, so its clear to say that the stand cannot reflect damage that is not self-harm (which is litterally the entire point of the stand, that's the whole theme of it. its the self-unalive stand.).
Click to expand...
This might be true, but your reasoning for it is, put bluntly, ain't gonna cut it.
Case 1 is impossible, Case 2 he lost the Stand.
If every reason given for why it isn't the case, has actual explanations, and in some cases, hard confirmed as to why it happened the way it did, they don't really serve as evidence for this.
Overlord775 said:
Furthermore, the page is missing a big weakness of Mcqueen, that being that if he's rendered unconscious, the stand disc containing highway hell will fall out, and so it will either momentary disable the ability or straight up make him lose it if someone were to steal the disc (which is litterally what happened in his fight)
Click to expand...
This is flat-out wrong, that isn't how Whitesnake's ability works (Because mind you, this has nothing to do with McQueen, but rather, Pucci).
The only reason "loss of consciousness" caused the disk to pop out, was because both times were done with a Stand attack, disrupting the Stand ability.
why would him losing consciousness make him lose the stand anyway, it's obviously not gonna pop out if he hangs himself or something, given he tried that and was losing conscious as he hung, given Ermes was too
Like some weird spirit shit going on here. You can't just punch him, or any of Whitesnake's puppets, in the face and have the disc pop out, that isn't how it works. That would be why each time a DISC popped out of him, it was via Ermes' stickers duplicating and smacking him with something.

If you really, need to list it as something, it's specifically any strong attack with spiritual properties (in the case of JoJo, that'd be an attack that came into contact, or directly from, a Stand), that can disrupt one's will or spirit (think D'Arby rules).
Overlord775 said:
Lastly, his intelligence sections is "Average, but knowledgeable in ways of killing himself" extremely not good, to say the least. bud tries suffocationx2. self-stabbing his arm, and eletricution, that's not being knowlegeable, that's just... basic intelligence. Though to his credit, he did instantly call out Ermes' bluff, so that should be listed instead on the page.
Click to expand...
Nah this fair, dude is kind of dumb af

Like, yeah dude's page is bad, outdated, and even kinda wanked, but this ain't in lad

Anyway, some guide lines and stuff
  • Those targeted will not only receive the same damage but also have the same posture for dying

We see this in manga, but, the way it's worded tells us that its ability is Damage Trans, or to be exact, damage reflection. Additionally, it words it as such that it isn't the Stand's power that inflicts the damage, but rather the damage he takes, they too take.
Which is self-evident, given the electricity scene and statements.
  • The ability to cause the main body to kill the person it wants to take with it in the same way as the main body. It also continues to deal the same damage as the host until it dies. It doesn't matter how you die, and it doesn't lose its power even if you are a certain distance away. The ability is canceled when the body stops trying to die.
Stating how the ability activates, and also tells us that it isn't the Stand inflicting damage. Which I feel should be super obvious, how the **** is a Stand with a C in power gonna blow someone up, a stated method of death it can reflect? It can't, C is the "human level" stat, of course they usually have caveats, but blowing someone up don't really fall under any.
Again, damage trans, it also tells us that HtH isn't affected by Stand Effective Range law, which, is actually quite important, it tells us that the "it does damage via the C in "power" thing ain't it, it's likely C for the same reason as say, White Album, the fact its main method of offensive, is tied to human actions (For the uninformed, C is literally "Human", usually referring to human lv stats, or cases when human actions are directly dependant). Whatever the case, it dealing damage via it's C, doesn't check out.
  • McQueen, who fell in love with Hermes, decided that love would never come true and decided to commit suicide. He activates his ability to take her with him. 3 times over. They tried to attack within Green Dolphin St, but thanks to Hermes' quick thinking, she evaded his attempts. It did not reach its full potential
    This last bit, is an important part, it's basically telling us HTH never actually got to its main thing, which, I mean, is obvious, he never actually died, so it couldn't bring someone into his death.
    Essentially, what we can conclude, based off just this lil bit is HTH's main ability is that of Damage Reflection, the damage inflicted upon its host, is reflected back onto a designated target, in the context of the story, that'd be Ermes.
    The damage it inflicts isn't tied to its C in Destructive Power, not only is that self-evident given Ermes is 9-B, and one of the confirmed types of deaths it can do is "death by explosion", something well and beyond a meager "C", inversely, the C is likely just talking about how its attacks come to be like other Stands akin to it. Coupled with the fact the damage given isn't tied to its performance, well, duh.
  • A final thing too, if it truly was attacking under its own power, the whole final interaction would make no sense, if it was simply electrocuting Ermes under its own power,


    This wouldn't make sense, why would a Stand, attacking under it's own static C-ass power, be affected by if the host was damaged to a certain degree, based solely on his own electrical res? Like if all it is, is the Stand attacking, whether or not the host's skin tissue is shock resistant, would not change the Stand's output, yet it did.

    The mere addition of saline water made HtH lethal, which shows that the damage HtH does, is intricately linked to the damage McQueen himself sustains or is attacked by. What I gather here, based on my like 10 minutes of looking into it.


  • The Stand seems to have shapeshifting, taking on the damage he's experiencing, quite literally, we see this as it morphs into water and electricity, 2 distinct damages, with the latter electricity, not being static in output.
  • The wider the AoE, the wider the Stand manifests.
  • Every single time physical harm happened, the Stand itself didn't do anything and the damage just spontaneously appeared, seen in the debut (only appearing to actually change her posture and make her float, the actually constricted neck isn't even touched by HtH's Stand body) and her arm being damaged (where it doesn't even manifest at all for any purpose), as such any actual physical damage, is simply reflected as is, if he cuts himself, his foe shall be cut, this is blatant duraneg, not reliant on the Stand's non-existant AP. This, is straightforward Damage Reflection+Duraneg, and should be listed as such.
  • Inversely, more abstract deaths, like drowning, the Stand actually does manifest, and take the form of said damage, like liquid to drown. This is not duraneg, but this not being duraneg, does not mean the former isn't.
  • The Stand, somehow, can also reflect less physical deaths like starvation, among others, so it's also capable of some degree of durability negation if it can kill through non-direct damaging methods, we're also told flatout, that HtH never reached it's true potential, which should be obvious given he never actually managed to kill himself, as such, instead of removing Death Manip, it'd be more accurate to list it as "possibly", and then just kinda explain "yeah, if he actually dies, you might die too, but we don't really know and even the verse itself is like "eh **** idk maybe?". Remember, we're an indexing wiki.
    In a case of a match, because we all know that's what this is about. It's literally just damage reflection, up to at the very least being blown up tho it does say any death, in the same guide that features Ice :FrugTurn: that only works if someone is a designated target (which they flatout say). This ain't exactly complicated, idk why the profile wanks, but the proposals here do the opposite.
  • Whether a foe attacking him, or the harm being self-inflicted, triggering the damage reflection is vague. Examples given here for why it must be self-harm, don't actually show as much. All we know is that when a target is chosen, they experiences the damage he does, until he dies. But this then goes into stuff like, what happens if he uses his foe as a means to die? Which is in character, which makes me think someone else attacking him definitely counts still

    Change death manip to possibly at best, maybe a note explaining it, duraneg stays because, well it literally does, it attacking strictly based on its C in power makes zero sense not with what we're shown, but even what we're told. Yeah nerf his intel, bro's been trying to kill himself for ages, which Ermes points out when she sees his cut up wrists, he obviously ain't that smart about it, he just jumps at any slightly feasible opportunity to die.

Im going back to zeld now...

The_Pink_God said:
I mean yeah, it's just Damage Transferal, I thought that was obvious, how come the profile added so much more?
Click to expand...
basically this yeah, it's just you take what i take
Flashlight237 said:
Apparently people back in the day thought Highway to Hell just straight-up killed people.
Click to expand...
nobody thought that, it was just inflated beyond what we know it can do
 
Chariot190 said:
This has merit, yes, but a bunch of this is incorrect, or arriving at a conclusion, whether that conclusion is right or wrong, with faulty or incorrect info.


"It could probably even pull someone in if he starves to death", from the manga itself.
This is a pretty self-evident "durability doesn't matter" type of death. His page is definitely subject to extreme NLF, but this CRT is kind of going in the exact opposite direction, which is equally bad.
Click to expand...

We don't know how it would have applied, for all we know it could have simply gutted the other.

Chariot190 said:
We literally see it do so on panel, you'll see this scan thrice more.
Click to expand...
Cutting a person is not durability negation.

Chariot190 said:
Incorrect, it does do that in regards to some damage and deaths, but that isn't always the case. It's not mutual.

For example, the Stand doesn't always manifest itself, in fact, every time pure physical damage happened, the Stand itself didn't actually do anything to cause it. The damage merely spontaneously occurred.
It seems to be, based on what we're told and shown, a mix of attack reflection, and damage reflection, based on what he is experiencing, and what damage he has taken himself.
Click to expand...

Except no, it didn't visibly manifests when Ermes was shocked the first time, except then doing so when it happened the second time. To me it much more seems like it only visibly manifests when McQueen is doing a would be sucessful attempt at self-unalive.


though, it being damage reflection and attack reflection does track.

Chariot190 said:
This isn't actually true, at all, where are you getting this? They never, at any point, in anything state that's what the C entails.
It's demonstrably not even true either.
Do not, under any circumstances, just make stuff up and state it as objective, it's misleading and dishonest.
Click to expand...
Ocram's Razor. Assuming damage is caused by AP rather than an unspefified ability to negate durability requires less assumptions.

Chariot190 said:
What? She's well into 9-B? I mean yeah her profile is actual trash and should be deleted, but that doesn't change she has some 9-B dura stuff.
Click to expand...

Please do provide the feat of her having 9-B durability.

Chariot190 said:
This, is half fair, the Stand definitely isn't the best and has limits, but, he hadn't actually died either which is something to take into account when indexing what he's capable of, as we know HtH never actually hit its full ability, as they state as much.
Click to expand...


We can't really index on speculation, though it could be listed as being able to induce Necrosis/Biological Manipulation (since that's what death by stavation would entail)

Chariot190 said:
And this, is explicitly false, case 1, Ermes wasn't a target yet, which I feel is self-evident, you kinda have to actually be in the Stand's attack, to be affected by said Stand, which they state directly anyway, this is like wondering why a random dude who doesn't care or think about WoU, doesn't get attacked by Calamity, it's simply because that person isn't in the Stand's attack yet or hasn't fulfilled the requirement to activate it.
It isn't until after that scene, that she gets pulled in because blud falls in love with her, before that, his Stand wasn't active. Which is the method btw, HtH only reflects stuff, if McQueen wants that person to die with him for whatever reason.
Click to expand...
You misunderstood, i meant when she bashed him out of the sink when he was drowning. I apologise for the confusion.

Chariot190 said:
And the second, literally knocked the Stand out of him, canceling the ability by virtue of no longer having it🗿
Click to expand...

In all other instances, the damage was shared the instant it happened, so why would in this case have not? Like, Ermes didn't even recieve a light bump from it

Chariot190 said:
This is flat-out wrong, that isn't how Whitesnake's ability works (Because mind you, this has nothing to do with McQueen, but rather, Pucci).
The only reason "loss of consciousness" caused the disk to pop out, was because both times were done with a Stand attack, disrupting the Stand ability.
why would him losing consciousness make him lose the stand anyway, it's obviously not gonna pop out if he hangs himself or something, given he tried that and was losing conscious as he hung, given Ermes was too
Like some weird spirit shit going on here. You can't just punch him, or any of Whitesnake's puppets, in the face and have the disc pop out, that isn't how it works. That would be why each time a DISC popped out of him, it was via Ermes' stickers duplicating and smacking him with something
Click to expand...

Chariot190 said:
If you really, need to list it as something, it's specifically any strong attack with spiritual properties (in the case of JoJo, that'd be an attack that came into contact, or directly from, a Stand), that can disrupt one's will or spirit (think D'Arby rules).
Click to expand...

i g
 
Overlord775 said:
We don't know how it would have applied, for all we know it could have simply gutted the other.
Click to expand...
Don't be obtuse, we know that isn't how it works. It doesn't just damage for the sake of it.
The Stand isn't gonna cut open their stomach, that simply isn't how it works, from both statements and showings.
Overlord775 said:
Cutting a person is not durability negation.
Click to expand...
Actually, it is, if they spontaneously receive multiple cuts without outside interference, say, the Stand doing it, that's just basic duraneg damage reflection.
Which, is what happened there.
Overlord775 said:
Except no, it didn't visibly manifests when Ermes was shocked the first time, except then doing so when it happened the second time. To me it much more seems like it only visibly manifests when McQueen is doing a would be sucessful attempt at self-unalive.
Click to expand...
Not only did you make that up, but, that doesn't change anything. The Stand, did not manifest, yet, Ermes was damaged, simply because he was. The most basic case of damage reflection known to man.
If the Stand does not manifest yet inflicting physical harm, like we literally see happen, then sorry, but you're demonstrably, and objectively, wrong.

Like, what are you even talking about? "Let's pretend this didn't happen because it happened different time", that isn't how it works?
Overlord775 said:
though, it being damage reflection and attack reflection does track.
Click to expand...
I mean yeah, because that's what it is.
Ocram's Razor. Assuming damage is caused by AP rather than an unspefified ability to negate durability requires less assumptions.
Click to expand...
Not only is that not what occam's razor entails, but we're talking about a magic ability that causes people to magically take the same damage, in a verse filled with this type of stuff.

Don't make stuff up, don't claim it to be the case, and you're wrong anyhow. HtH causes the person to take the damage he takes, we see this happen, and we see it happen, without the Stand manifesting, this is classic duraneg and damage reflection. You'd be right if it did manifest those times, but it didn't, so we know that when it does, that isn't precisely why, it also straight up debunks your "it damages by its own power", and without that, you have no point here. It simply isn't the case, not even just because of this, but in combination with several statements and descriptions, plus said Stand Law breaking despite not being an auto-tracker like SHA.
Overlord775 said:
Please do provide the feat of her having 9-B durability.
Click to expand...

Like 23000j due to 30x time crunch (Yes, it affects KE), there's more, she's shown kinda comparable to Jolyne too at points (and goddamn if Jolyne don't got a bunch), but, make do with this scan that I grabbed from the Jotaro folder yes jotaro, it was in a intel album given he was like "we have a good vantage point dont go in".
But, you actually make note of a 9-B feat in your very own reply below, Ermes smacking his ass looks low 9-B? I'd have to calc it but bro was kinda launched, regardless, this doesn't change the fact your point was wrong. A C power Stand ain't blowing someone up, notwithstanding they never said that's why it has a C, or that's how it worked, hell they basically say the opposite.

Edit: I just redid it, shit got 6 digit joules, those doors weighed way more than I thought 🗿
Overlord775 said:
We can't really index on speculation,
Click to expand...
It isn't speculation, we're told as much?
And dog, we do constantly, why do you think we have notes or "possibly"? The very prefix is for cases where there's a case but it's undefined. As long as we have reason to believe it's the case, we make a note and modify it accordingly explaining as such. Precisely why it'd be possibly.
Overlord775 said:
though it could be listed as necrosis 8since that's what death by stavation would entail)
Click to expand...
Which is also duraneg.
You misunderstood, i meant when she bashed him out of the sink when he was drowning. I apologise for the confusion.
Click to expand...
That's actually a 9-B feat, good catch, his momentum when she bashed him was kind of insane.
Ignoring that, what are you talking about? A DISC didn't pop out there? The DISC she had there was the disc she had the night before, that he walked in on her looking at, at the start of the scene, she simply grabbed it and dipped?

Here's the anime scene as bad as the part 6 anime is for clarification if you were confused.
In all other instances, the damage was shared the instant it happened, so why would in this case have not? Like, Ermes didn't even receive a light bump from it
Click to expand...

Kinda hard to tell if she took a lump, especially when she can power through shit like this

Your argument really doesn't hold if it boils down to "we don't know if the blood-covered chick who can power through having her skull bit and head literally split open got a non-visible lump" 🗿

What even is your argument here? McQueen himself didn't even any visible damage? Notwithstanding the attack literally knocked the Stand out.
I agree dude needs some hefty reworking, but, every point you're trying to make is demonstrably false, or assuming it to be the case based on stuff we know happened the way it did, for completely different reasons.
 
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