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Well, it's not wholly irrelevant. It's not like someone bluffing that they can blow up a planet when in reality they're only Town level. Gin's Bankai is still extremely fast to the characters even if it's not precisely Mach 500.
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Bleach - Speed Downgrades
- Thread starter Mommyleona
- Start date
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I just posted all the pages so I wouldn’t leave out any context, and regardless, they all portray Aizen as being >>> Ichigo’s perception. That is literally what Kubo is drawing.
Even if you only agree with the last example, that alone is enough to debunk the nonsense of capping base Aizen below Mach 500.
I honestly don’t care if the calc gets removed, but the idea of capping everyone below Third Fusion Aizen at Mach 500 makes no sense. And I have debunked it.
so if the OP would counter my argument with actual scans regarding my arguments, we can continue the debate.
Saqphire
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I mean...
Rodriiogo
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Do you not get that the whole point is that this isn't consistently the case and that Ichigo is CONSISTENTLY BELOW MACH 500 even in perception speed?
Please man, read the OP it's getting tiring, you can't have someone consistently be below an attack and then try to scale them to the attack because of one scene where it's very clearly inconsistency and, as the OP says:
And Ichigo's percetion is < Mach 500 via everything already said in the OP.
The OP even has an example of Ichigo failing to perceive the mach 500 in the most blatant way ever
You can't pick and choose whatever agenda you wanna follow. Ichigo ADMITS he couldn't perceive the mach 500 retracting but you are trying to scale his perception speed to something twice as fast? Be so for real.
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Also why is the Mach 500 statement debate still going, isn't this like the 20th time this is debated and every single time it was agreed it's mach 500? You'd need a whole other thread to remove something that is already accepted in the current scaling (it being mach 500)
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This makes sense to me, the cap doesn't really hold upmach 500 is stated by him, Buto double his baseline speed.
None of the OP’s debunks address what I stated.
Ichigo literally saw a Mach 1000 attack coming at him and even dodged it. It does not matter if he was evenly matched with Gin or losing to him. The point is his perception speed can see Gin's attacks. He can even react.
However, from a massive distance, Aizen perception-blitzed him by touching his chest, and he had already blitzed him many times before that, with Ichigo not even reacting to him, Ichigo doesn't even realise Aizen blitzed him. Did it like 3 times in a row.
You need to address specifically what I claim.
Again:
Aizen's speed > Ichigo's perception speed > Mach 1000.
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The fact that Ichigo is at least able to barely dodge or react to Gin’s Bankai a few times, but is completely unable to react to Aizen perception blitzing him multiple times, already shows the portrayal difference. Ultimately it doesn't matter whether Ichigo narrowly dodged the Bankai attacks or no, because he completely failed to react to Aizen in any way, on multiple occasions. The portrayal of Aizen being faster than Gin's Bankai is very clear.
Saqphire
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That comparison is not remotely the same Damage. No one's denying that Gin's Bankai is extremely fast, we're denying the speed being anchored to Mach 500 in the first place. You even agreed to that just now
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I think it's a pretty relevant comparison, but I digress.
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- Thread starter
- #49
Why not?
Yeah because that's exactly what he tells Aizen. He lied specifically to him. He has a reason to, he wanted to eventually kill Aizen. He doesn't have a reason to lie to Ichigo, not once does Ichigo question even in his head "Oh this is actually much faster than what he told me" (just for example) or anything of that sort, there's concretely 0 reason to doubt Gin's words to Ichigo.
Please provide a scan of him saying he lied to Ichigo, and a reason why he would it.
Them being a decoy does not make them a lie/wrong. It simply refers to how the sword's most deadliest quality was it turning into dust and the deadly poison that dissolves cells.
Yeah, even you agree its in reference to Aizen, so what's the issue?
0 evidence of that
The databook reiterates other claims, and this one is left vague, why is it's speed suddenly being questioned, when it's used to cap?
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Yeah I wholeheartedly agree with this. Been saying this for years.
Rodriiogo
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I'm so confused on what the hell the chain-scaling is being planned to be:
How is this making sense to some people?
The OP addresses the scene where Ichigo "percieves the Buto" clearly and it got fully ignored.
I don't care if you think Bankai is Mach 500 or not (even tho it is), Ichigo should NOT scale to Buto or Bankai's speed in any capacity or any type of speed.
- Buto is 2x faster than Bankai
- Ichigo ADMITS he couldn't perceive the Bankai retracting
- Ichigo supposedly "perceives the Buto" (He doesn't because of what OP said but let's ignore that)
How is this making sense to some people?
The OP addresses the scene where Ichigo "percieves the Buto" clearly and it got fully ignored.
I don't care if you think Bankai is Mach 500 or not (even tho it is), Ichigo should NOT scale to Buto or Bankai's speed in any capacity or any type of speed.
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Do you not get that the whole point is that this isn't consistently the case and that Ichigo is CONSISTENTLY BELOW MACH 500 even in perception speed?
Please man, read the OP it's getting tiring, you can't have someone consistently be below an attack and then try to scale them to the attack because of one scene where it's very clearly inconsistency and, as the OP says:
The OP even has an example of Ichigo failing to perceive the mach 500 in the most blatant way ever
You can't pick and choose whatever agenda you wanna follow.
He literally dodged and blocked the attacks. If he couldn’t see something, he wouldn’t be able to dodge it.
And he literally dodged an enhanced version at 2x speed, which is Mach 1000. He saw it and dodged it.
Just because he didn’t realize the retraction speed in a specific moment, that doesn’t imply he can’t keep up with mach 500.
You are just blindly reading what suits you and ignoring every single instance that literally portrays Ichigo being able to see and react to that speed.
He fought Gin for 10 chapters.
Aizen still did far worse than that, and brutally blitzed him far worse than anything Gin did. He was Humiliating him in speed.
Aizen was even at a GREATER distance than where Gin was when he blitzed Ichigo.
That is obvious to anyone that is not lying to himself.
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- Thread starter
- #54
And Mach 500 >>> also his perception
I also want to mention, that even if the cap doesn't hold up for Aizen and above, it still very much holds up for everybody else below/comparable to Ichigo
I would like for mods to not blindly ignore the rest of the CRT too
We do see Mask Ichigo land hits on base Aizen and keep up with him
Except he failed to do so to the Bankai too, even when fully focused on it
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The reason why I have issue with the way you're separating the two is because when Gin says "I lied to you. The speed and range aren't what I told you", it's meant to draw the reader's memory towards his statement to Ichigo. That's how exposition works. In my opinion, it's improper reading of the text to see that dialogue and think "This is not a callback to Gin's past exposition, explicitly explaining how his Bankai works to us, the readers, and Ichigo. What Gin is actually doing is talking about what he told Aizen, separately." I just don't see how you could come to that conclusion reasonably without going through loops.
Maybe it's being questioned because the character in question explicitly told us that he lied about the capabilities of his Bankai?
Honestly I completely forgot about that statement anyway, it's been years since I last read bleach, so it's not "all of a sudden", you brought it up lol.
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So just because he failed to react to the retraction speed at the start, means him later reacting to the attacks of the same speed and 2 times faster, should be just brushed off calling it inconsistency? It's a basic shonen trope for the mc to fail to do something, then quickly adapt to it.Do you not get that the whole point is that this isn't consistently the case and that Ichigo is CONSISTENTLY BELOW MACH 500 even in perception speed?
Please man, read the OP it's getting tiring, you can't have someone consistently be below an attack and then try to scale them to the attack because of one scene where it's very clearly inconsistency and, as the OP says:
And Ichigo's percetion is < Mach 500 via everything already said in the OP.
The OP even has an example of Ichigo failing to perceive the mach 500 in the most blatant way ever
You can't pick and choose whatever agenda you wanna follow. Ichigo ADMITS he couldn't perceive the mach 500 retracting but you are trying to scale his perception speed to something twice as fast? Be so for real.
Him not reacting to it once at the start doesn't invalidate the later instances of him reacting at all.
Saqphire
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Even if the cap held up for Ichigo and co, there's no defined speed for the cap anyway cuz Gin's clapping isn't Mach 1. And if you wanna lowball it to "average clapping speed", there's a gazillion inconsistences from prior scaling to come with that
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You are actually a funny guy. It’s very interesting how much you can lie just to keep up your agenda.
Aizen was literally fighting Yamamoto, had just gotten out of a deadly attack, and then Ichigo sneak-attacked him.
After that, Aizen was smiling and casually fighting him.
So you read Bleach and somehow didn’t notice that Aizen was playing with him the whole time and got attacked off-guard? And the moment Aizen got serious, he brutally blitzed him and made him shiver in fear?
But what I was expecting since you took a scan of Gin attacking Aizen off-guard to cap everyone at mach 500.
You lost all credibility, so I’ll let the staff decide.
Rodriiogo
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Which is something the OP addressed and I agreed with the explanation and haven't a single good debunk to the entire explanation. Debunk the explanation and I will agree with you, that simple. Don't just repeat arguments because "he reacted" even tho the thread already explained why it doesn't matter.He literally dodged and blocked the attacks. If he couldn’t see something, he wouldn’t be able to dodge it.
And he literally dodged an enhanced version at 2x speed, which is Mach 1000. He saw it and dodged it.
But matter of fact, you said there are multiple times he reacted to it down there right? Can you send ONE other than this one that doesn't show he is blatantly slower in the same scene?
I didn't know this was a hot take here... but I think blatant consistency of someone being way slower than an attack and a literal admission of "I can't perceive this" takes over a singular scene where he barely is able to dodge an attack twice as fast while also having the advantage of more time to react? Am I the only one?
Let me get this straight. You think someone being unable to perceive a speed completely doesn't imply they can't keep up with said speed?
I am out of words.
Incorrect, I said I agree with the OP that went over EVERY SINGLE INSTANCE of Gin's bankai being used and explained why it doesn't mean he scales to said speed and actually proves otherwise. I read all of it and agreed with the conclusion that he shouldn't scale even to the mach 500. It's that simple, the difference is that I actually read the OP entirely, you didn't.
Dude. No one is denying Aizen is faster than Gin himself. He just isn't faster than the Bankai. You can be faster than someone by an insane amount and still be slower than a random magic attack they have, this proves NOTHING.
So the argument is that Ichigo should have a "Varies with Adaptation/Accelerated Development; Massively Hypersonic up to Massively Hypersonic+" with the support to it being "It's a basic shonen trope" with 0 NARRATIVE IMPLICATIONS OF THIS and trying to excuse blatant consistency over a singular scene.
I'd also like to ask you how Gin proceeds to still beat Mask Ichigo if he apparently was evolving so fast he somehow got 2x faster than an attack that blitzed him at first. Does Gin also need to get Accelerated Development or Adaptation on his profile?
Saqphire
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One could argue his initial failure was off-guard even
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Who said Gin's clapping speed was Mach 1?
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- Thread starter
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Yeah, I have a very clear reason to do so, as you just typed yourself
Prove that. It doesn't. Why would Gin extremely specifically refer to the time A WHILE BACK, when he told Aizen about his Bankai's ability, and not just make a general statement? You're practically stretching a headcanon here, that for some reason, the lie MUST apply to the time he told that Ichigo too, when it's simply not the case.
And again fail to actually state a reason why Gin would lie to Ichigo, and my before mentioned example of Ichigo not questioning its speed
Yes there is, and i have already proven so, citing a databook when the manga makes the speed extremely clear, doesnt help.
Where is the lie? Im pretty sure Aizen clearly sees Ichigo jumping at him
Yeah because Hogyoku had kicked in at that point
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agree with infinte here ngl
Saqphire
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Nobody, but for her Mach five hunnid premise to hold up, the clap has to be argued to be Mach 1 because the statement doesn't compare the Bankai to sound. Plus as Nierre said, the databook even mentions it being a lie overall so even the "mach 1 clap" stuff wouldn't work
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Well, currently it is accepted on the wiki as being compared to sound. Unless there's another thread to revise Gin's statistics, this doesn't matter.
Rodriiogo
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The databook never mentions it being a lie overall, but a DECOY to hide it's other ability.
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As far as I’m seeing, no staff member agrees with you about capping everyone under 3rd Fusion Aizen at Mach 500, so my arguments are stronger overall.
I'm neutral about Ichigo's scaling and calc, but the idea that Aizen is capped by mach 500 is fully debunked by the actual Manga.
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0 narrative implications? He literally dodged 2 times after failing to react to the retraction speed once, the first time. A singular time of him not being able to react, especially when he was likely caught off guard by such speed, doesn't mean that should be considered his cap. He doesn't even need to "evolve" per se to barely react to the later attacks, just push himself hard and focus more. Which he was really trying to do.
Also Ichigo being able to get stronger during intense fights had already been established. It does not necessarily need a direct statement about it every single time when it happens (Not saying that was the case here)
Ichigo being able to barely react to the attacks doesn't mean Gin couldn't beat Mask Ichigo...
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Pretty sure damage agreed unless I misendurstood
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At the moment I'm neutral on the speed cap, but I agree with much of the OP.
Speed statistics need changing for the profiles.
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Lowkey agreeing with Infinite here
Rodriiogo
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You mean the times where he was avoiding it by "luck"? Or the times at where he was admitting that if Gin even simly AIMED the tip at him he'd be finished (Ig he forgot he can dodge it)? Or the time where he barely dodges and the retraction perception blitzes him again (It traveled KILOMETERS in that timeframe)? Or maybe the times after he admits the speed of the Bankai is the scary part about it and getting shocked by hearing it's 500x faster than sound (Regardless if you think it's a lie which is dumb, doesn't he know he's over 2x faster than said speeds?)
This is just another way of saying "Ichigo is lying"
Ichigo literally says he was fully focused and had his attention in the sword and that he couldn't have missed it at all. He never implies a focus issue and just does the contrary instead
Saqphire
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Good thing that one can refute accepted stuff on VSBW for semi-related stuff in threads. Or did you forget what you said in Ghost's thread?
Dawg this was said in the same chapter. Ichigo was off-guarded by the shrink and wasn't after he realised Gin's battle tactic
Semantics. A decoy is functionally a false claim and thus a lie, which aligns perfectly with his own statement about it being one for hiding the dura neg part.
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He doesn't with the speed cap, and @Dalesean027 disagree as well, @Nierre liked all my comments so I believes he pretty much agree as well the speed cap is dumb, but we can ask him.
Saqphire
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How is that semantics? The meaning is very different
No it isnt? It just means "something used to trick people", the trick here is Gin listing the speed and range as those big important abilities to conceal people from the other function of the Bankai. Don't be obtuse.
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They see via sensing in combat, not their eyes
Mind u in that same scan Gin is saying Ichigo is going to get get stronger (So yes he is improving)
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Stretching head canon? Obviously, Gin told Aizen about his Bankai a while back, before he told Ichigo. The point of that scene is not just to reveal the truth to Aizen but to ALSO reveal the truth to the reader, THAT is why I say it's explicitly a call back to when he told Ichigo, because we are shocked, just as Aizen is. It's not stretching head canon it's literally a matter of reading comprehension.
Even if I were to grant you that it wasn't a callback, your argumentation stands on shaky ground. Gin lies to literally everybody. He lied to not only Aizen, but also Rangiku, Rukia, hell ALL of Gotei 13 about his true motives for CENTURIES. Most importantly he literally tricks and deceives Ichigo in the same fight he "lies" about the length. Ichigo figures out that Gin "exaggerated" the length and destruction of his Bankai to hide the fact that the "real" issue is the speed. Gin has motive to lie to Ichigo because that's what he does. He's already done it within their fight. He lies and tricks and uses exaggeration to gain advantage. So there's precedent to him lying about the speed anyhow.
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For the most part, I think OP looks fine.
I'm seeing some debate about Gin's bankai calc, and I'm unsure why that wasn't also handled in a calc thread since it appears the main problem we have with it would be that we don't actually know the speed of Gin's bankai therefore the assumed speed which is the basis for the calc doesn't hold up.
Am I missing something or is their more to allowing Ichigo's dodging of Gin's bankai to remain as is?
I'm seeing some debate about Gin's bankai calc, and I'm unsure why that wasn't also handled in a calc thread since it appears the main problem we have with it would be that we don't actually know the speed of Gin's bankai therefore the assumed speed which is the basis for the calc doesn't hold up.
Am I missing something or is their more to allowing Ichigo's dodging of Gin's bankai to remain as is?
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