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Yes I disagree with the cap
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Bleach - Speed Downgrades
- Thread starter Mommyleona
- Start date
- Status
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Another Bleach calc revision color me shocked. Question relating to the whole argument of “he couldn’t perceive the initial retraction so he doesn’t scale” thing is wouldn’t a issue of the distance moved, size of the blade and direction moved come into play with perception at some point here? Like if we assume it’s Mach 500 retrieving and expanding, seeing it retract like 2 feet is much harder than seeing it move a great distance at you no?
Saqphire
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The meaning is very much not different when we see the same mf say its a lie.
Can you tell me what a lie is meant to do? Actually, I'll help you, because every single definition of "lie" lines up with what you said unless you wanna re-define what "tricking someone" means.
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Consider this an official warning, just because someone disagreed with a specifc aspect of your thread doesn't mean they blindly agreed to the opposition or just didn't read.
Unbelievable comment to make umprompted, especially when I never disagreed with the rest of OP other than the cap and the gin/aizen/ichigo bit.
Hell even if I did disagree with the rest your comment is still very much unfounded. Yet you'll take a vote in favor for you as a whole as not being a blind agree?
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Even the databooks back up the fact it extended 13km. Ichigo also didn't doubt what he said about it's speed which means it should be within that range
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Saqphire
She/Her- 1,572
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My fault, 3 disagreements and one neutral vote*
Nope, that's literally all there is iirc
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On the bright side at least we know Gin can cut through all of Las Noches.
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Anyway to talk about what I do agree with:
This is fine (his perceptions should be updated for his later keys as well tbh). Also has Uryu ever been perception blitzed? Couldn't we start a scaling chain from there or ?
Maaaaybeeee? I can understand the hesitation, especially without any support. So count me as agreeing, tentatively.
Sure
Since a CGM agreed to the High End this is fine.
This is fine (his perceptions should be updated for his later keys as well tbh). Also has Uryu ever been perception blitzed? Couldn't we start a scaling chain from there or ?
Maaaaybeeee? I can understand the hesitation, especially without any support. So count me as agreeing, tentatively.
Sure
Since a CGM agreed to the High End this is fine.
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Another thing that confuses me with this Aizen cap thing is the idea that characters cant be off guarded due to Reikaku when we literally see it happen verbatim in the manga, yes it was an off guard. The idea that transformed Aizen gets blitzed or is rel to Gin's Bankai speed is a really funny thought though. Gin is the biggest moron on the planet he could have totally blitzed base Aizen in SS.
Saqphire
She/Her- 1,572
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Not even that inconsistent since Base Gin is already > Starrk who can nuke it with his Resurrección alone
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- Thread starter
- #93
Sounds to me like a difference in interpretation, it could've been made a general statement instead of the more specific one.
Did he? Doesn't he outright say 8 miles/13km?
That's not what Ichigo said at all. He says that Gin told him the length and showcased it on the town to distract Ichigo from speed. So this would actually be an example of Gin NOT lying to Ichigo.
It's because the problem with a calc comes from the inconsistency in the scaling, and I thought that's something more appropriate for a crt
What about everything else then?
That.. would just further prove my point, because Ichigo failed to notice it despite it's length (as he mentions himself too)
I already expressed how nothing for me here implies it was a lie to Ichigo. Gin didn't even lie about the range, so that's an example of him not lying to Ichigo.
Lie tricking people =/= something being used a Decoy means it's a lie. I really fail to see your point.
I'm sorry, but I never said that??? I just said that I would like to hear mods's opinions on the rest of the thread, since you only responded to the cap part and nothing else. I never implied you didn't read it.
??? I didn't accuse you of anything, you're misunderstanding my intent.
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? From the scan you sent to say this:
It's him retracting the sword like a meter and a half, as opposed to his other reactions to the sword of it expanding at him full length, Ichigo would only start reacting after a certain point of it coming back as opposed to its full extension length
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So you're just gonna frame the feat as luck just cause Gin said so, without considering that Ichigo denied it. Also people call a feat that they think was barely done "luck" all the time, that doesn't make it true. Ichigo reacting again later proves that it's not luck. The time when he said if Gin aimed it at him he'd be finished, was when Gin had shortened his Zanpakuto and was at a cqc distance, obviously it would be way more dangerous if it happened right at his face. Almost right after he said that, Ichigo dodged another sword extension from Gin after he aimed it at Ichigo.You mean the times where he was avoiding it by "luck"? Or the times at where he was admitting that if Gin even simly AIMED the tip at him he'd be finished (Ig he forgot he can dodge it)? Or the time where he barely dodges and the retraction perception blitzes him again (It traveled KILOMETERS in that timeframe)? Or maybe the times after he admits the speed of the Bankai is the scary part about it and getting shocked by hearing it's 500x faster than sound (Regardless if you think it's a lie which is dumb, doesn't he know he's over 2x faster than said speeds?)
This is just another way of saying "Ichigo is lying"
Ichigo literally says he was fully focused and had his attention in the sword and that he couldn't have missed it at all. He never implies a focus issue and just does the contrary instead
Ichigo wasn't expecting for it to retract THAT fast, he wasn't properly focused on the speed. Ichigo being shocked of how fast it is doesn't mean he can't do anything against it because HE LITERALLY DID. If 500 mach was enough why would Gin double the speed? Ichigo being able to dodge those attacks happened, and can't be brushed off, simple as that.
Saqphire
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Those arguments have been refuted by Nierre multiple times
This doesn't explicitly prove that Gin was telling the truth about the distance gng, and Gin being silent about it =/= he wasn't lying. Gin can tell Ichigo how many miles it extends and lie about that because the point of him saying the distance was to distract him from the speed of the shrinking. Thus it's not mutually exclusive. Plus this doesn't even refute my point.
The lie being the speed and the decoy being the speed are both true. And a decoy is still by definition a deception and a deception is a lie
I'm not continuing this tho cuz
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The calc replacements are fine and self evident (also literally have already been accepted in other threads so not much to comment on there), but yeah I still find myself disagreeing with the cap
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While I don't agree with Aizen necessarily being affected by a cap, doesn't Gin's statement function as a soft cap for all of the Zanpakuto that he is aware of? He essentially says "Kamishini no Yari is the fastest Zanpakuto" which means the attack speed of a lot of other shinigami should still be limited below him, though this doesn't affect characters after this point and Zanpakuto that Gin is not aware of.
Saqphire
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It's still under the lie clause. Plus KnY doesn't have an actual speed
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Wouldn’t this be ability based speed at the worst, since we know Ichigo has the ability to keep up with his bankai’s swing speed but wouldn’t be able to do so with Aizens? Ignoring the fact it’s also apart of the lie Gin was talking about, it doesn’t account for bankai growth at all
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Okay, but the lie isn't that big of a deal depending on what the other values being considered are. Like, we agree that it would make no sense for Gin to lie that a Mach 500 attack speed is the fastest if everyone else's Zanpakutos are considered to be MHS+ or Relativisitc?
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- Thread starter
- #103
Alright, but if the statement is deemed not valid, then the Kamishini no Yari calc still has to go, since the bankai no longer has a stated speed, right?
I'm also hoping you read this part, as I simply requested for mods to take a look at the rest of the thread, not to hyper focus only on the cap part, I did not imply you blindly agreed with the opposition, and apologize if the wording made you feel that way
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The attack speed of most of the Shinigami with their Zanpakuto is not dependent on their Zanpakuto's speed really, it's dependent on the Shinigami's cqc speed because their zanpakuto don't really have independent speed like Kamishi no Yari does. Aizen's zanpakuto doesn't have its own speed, it's Aizen's movement speed. The statement could apply to Zanpakutos like Renji's Zabimaru that can stretch and move around freely.
It should be interpreted similarly to Yamamoto's statement of Ryujinjakka being the strongest fire type Zanpakuto. Obviously the Zanpakuto that aren't fire type shouldn't be considered (Even tho Yama still had the strongest Zanpakuto at the time as far as we knew).
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Saqphire
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Gin is not lying about Mach 500 because Mach 500 was never the speed in the first place, he's simply lying about his own Zanpakuto. That's why I said it doesn't have a speed.
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That's fine I can support that if we're dropping the specifc speed value
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Well, let's agree to disagree on the specifics - but regardless of what the speed specifically is that he's referencing, do we agree is functions as a soft cap?
Saqphire
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I honestly wouldn't even use Gin as a source in general, he's explicitly portrayed as unreliable for his Zanpakuto here with the only truthful thing being about his dura neg.
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- Thread starter
- #109
I just want to clarify, do you agree/disagree/neutral on the cap?
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Agreed with these two positions
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In terms of the cap, disagree. While more likely than not, Gin is implying his weapon is slower than 500 times the speed of sound or his clap (whatever is being said there), ultimately the verse itself doesn't ever try and treat this as some form of hard limit as Ichigo still manages to fend Gin off utilizing his bankai. And Ichigo and Gin's position in the verse aren't so solid they set a proper boundary for enough characters I think a cap is needed.
If solid feats are found that can somehow get these characters at this point in the story above that mach 500 range, then at best this conversation serves as support against such scaling and should be nothing more.
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Everything but the cap sounds like a good conclusion to me too.
ItsMeat
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Then add him there
Buddy, look at his palms, they are like this
Yes, that's holding them like in a praying stance
Clapping them in this position is inefficient for creating sound and there is 0 need for him to move his arms so fast ichigo can barely see them if all he wanted is sound. Sinple, normal applauses at human apeed are enough, heck, they'd have been better than what he did if his goal was a sound
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What you're talking about is unimportant for the purpose of this thread at this point
Saqphire
She/Her- 1,572
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Buddy, look at his palms, they are like this
Yes, that's holding them like in a praying stance
Clapping them in this position is inefficient for creating sound and there is 0 need for him to move his arms so fast ichigo can barely see them if all he wanted is sound. Sinple, normal applauses at human apeed are enough, heck, they'd have been better than what he did if his goal was a sound
Gin’s statement has been nuked bro
ItsMeat
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I think that'd affect Senbonzakura Kageyoshi's speed.
AlipheeseXIV
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Didn't read
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Love how the OP completely disregards Ichigo’s accepted (Damaged version)
Mach 4082 already accepted MHS+ calc. And ignores multipliers.
At the very least he should get multipliers removed before he starts throwing CRT’s around and starts scaling people to the values they Think is correct
Mach 4082 already accepted MHS+ calc. And ignores multipliers.
At the very least he should get multipliers removed before he starts throwing CRT’s around and starts scaling people to the values they Think is correct
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