Remove NEP 1 and NEP 3 from Guenael Lee in Bleach.

Azertyhuuh said:

Hello everyone, before I begin, I ask that you stay on topic and remain respectful, as I am only trying to correct the mistakes.

Today I will remove NEP 1 and NEP 3 as well, of course because their justifications are incorrect, since the time they were obtained is outdated (dating back to 2022). So today I will try to explain this matter.

This is the justification present in the character profile Guenael Lee:

• Invisibility, Nonexistent Physiology, Illusion Creation and Memory Manipulation (Nature: Type 1 and 3 – Aspect: Type 1 and 3 – The Vanishing Point is an ability that works in 3 stages. In stage one, Guenael becomes invisible to even Lieutenant-Class Shinigami[1], beings which can visually perceive spirit ribbons[2] which are invisible to those who can visually perceive invisible souls[3], he also retains his ability to attack while in this form[4]. In stage two, Guenael is capable of causing his very “existence” to disappear from “reality” itself[5], with this “existence” being comprised of his soul, mind, and body[6] This “stage” also leaves behind an illusory image of himself as the last remainder of his existence[7]. Guenael can switch between each stage instantly[8]. The third and final stage of The Vanishing Point allows Guenael to erase his very existence from the opponent's memory[9]),

This character possesses the Vanishing Point ability, and I will now explain this ability correctly, as the justification everyone sees here is incorrect.

Guenael Lee’s ability is an ability that deceives the opponent by reducing the probability of them perceiving him, and I will now explain the versions and stages of this ability.

• Version 1: In this stage, he hides his body, meaning he becomes invisible to the opponent, and thus the opponent cannot even know his location.

• Version 2: In this version, he changes his location of existence, as after his form begins to disappear, he shifts his position.

• Version 3: In this case, Guenael Lee erases his existence from his opponents’ memory entirely, so the opponents will not even be aware of his existence or recognize him at all. In short, the opponent forgets who he is entirely, which is memory manipulation.

Now I will explain where the error is in their NEP justification and the incorrect assumption. Before that, these are the images that are being referenced, of course ↓

Image 1:

As everyone can observe in the first image, exactly as I explained, the mistake made by supporters years ago was the assumption that in Version 2, Guenael Lee erased his own existence, meaning he no longer exists. This is the error. In reality, when the text states that his existence disappears, it means the following ↓





I have brought you the full text so you can understand it if you did not understand it from the image. It is the same text—look carefully at what is meant in Version 2. It states that when his form begins to disappear, meaning he becomes invisible, he leaves an illusory image in that location, and his presence at that point disappears because he moves away while being invisible in the first place. When the opponent tries to attack, they do not hit him because they are attacking an illusory copy he left in that location while he is not actually there. After that, the text states that his existence is no longer there, meaning only that he has changed position. The supporters, when reading this, did not complete the full context because at the beginning it says in Version 2 “my existence disappears,” and then immediately afterward it explains that he has simply changed position. Thus, his existence in that specific location is no longer there only in the sense that he moved, not that he ceased to exist entirely. All he does is become invisible, leave an illusory image in the same place, move, and change position. When the opponent attacks, they only hit the illusion he left in Version 2 while he has already moved elsewhere. Therefore, his existence in that location is gone only because he changed position, not because he stopped existing.

Image 2:

In Version 3, he simply erases his existence from the opponent’s memory, after which the opponent no longer remembers him at all. This is memory manipulation.

Conclusion:

NEP 1 and NEP 3 should be completely removed and deleted from all other character profiles.

Other justifications may be added: invisibility, and memory manipulation, although I believe he possesses memory manipulation.

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Agree:
Disagree:
Neutral:

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Hard disagree. Its written right there that his existence is no longer there.

Hellscream said:

Read the forms of the characters, and correlate them with what he does in the series, like i've shown.

Version 1, makes his form disappear, nothing much there, he's simply not visible anymore.
Version 2, states his existence itself disappears.
Version 3, his existence disappears from your mind.

You are correct that hiding your form does not make you non existent, which is why version 1 does not grant NEP.
It's the second form that does, he does not hide his existence, it's directly stated and shown to disappear.
Literally none of the shit you mentioned applies.

False equivalence, he's not "hiding" his existence for the billionth time.

Yes, you're talking about version one, where he hides his form congratulations.
This has nothing to do with version two, which i've shown in the video of yachiru trying to hit him, when he's in version 2, with us being literally able to see her fist going through him, while he's still in the same exact spot.

Your bias is made upon him switching places, that is nowhere stated or implied.
And i proved this.

I have literally eplained over and over how "my existence is no longer there" is literally what happens when he enters version 2.
Prior to entering version 2, his existence is still there ---- he enters version 2, which causes his existence itself to disappear, meaning "his existence is no longer there"
that is what it means, and i've literally shown it to you with proof, in the fight itself, where he STATES he entered version 2, with her fist going through him.

He has 3 versions.
One hides his form.
Second one erases his existence, stop mixing them up, and using version one instead.
He literally spoonfed us the capability of his ability, and what every version does, with the fact that he's capable of switching between them quickly.
Yachiru is purely fighting and reacting with fighting instinct, she is not a shinigami, she's the sword of kenpachi.
And Guenael is incapable of attacking her, without exiting his second version.

The case where he audibly utilizes version two, is the one where her attack went straight through him.
Like this shit is insanely simple to understand.

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Version 1 hides his form, making him invisible.
Version 2 makes his existence disappear.
Version 3 erases his existence from the opponent's memory.

For the last time, the video you sent is incorrect because it is cut out of context.

What happens is that when he uses Version 1 to hide his form, an afterimage remains in the opponent's sight. That is why when someone throws a punch toward that lingering image left in their vision, it does not hit him.

"IN VERSION 1, MY FORM DISAPPEARS."
"IN VERSION 2, MY EXISTENCE DISAPPEARS."
"IN VERSION 2 THAT I JUST USED, WHEN MY FORM IS BEGINNING TO DISAPPEAR..."
"...MY EXISTENCE IS NO LONGER THERE."
"ONLY THE ILLUSION THAT YOU STRUCK THE AFTERIMAGE OF MY FORM... CAPTURED IN YOUR SIGHTS REMAINS."

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The evidence is right in front of you.

Now regarding Version 2, in this version his existence disappears, which means that his existence fades entirely from the opponent's perception. Because of this, the opponent cannot do anything against him since his existence has vanished from their perception, while he still exists and is not actually nonexistent.

"IN VERSION 1, MY FORM DISAPPEARS."
"IN VERSION 2, MY EXISTENCE DISAPPEARS."
"IN VERSION 2 THAT I JUST USED, WHEN MY FORM IS BEGINNING TO DISAPPEAR..."
"...MY EXISTENCE IS NO LONGER THERE."
"ONLY THE ILLUSION THAT YOU STRUCK THE AFTERIMAGE OF MY FORM... CAPTURED IN YOUR SIGHTS REMAINS."

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The evidence is in front of you again, where he says that in Version 2 his existence disappears.

Now the problem is that fans are ignoring the very basis of this ability. The foundation of this power is simply perception manipulation.

In Version 1, he makes his form disappear, and therefore the opponent cannot see him.

In Version 2, his existence disappears, meaning that this time the opponent cannot perceive him at all, as though he does not exist. However, he still exists, but the opponent cannot perceive him and it is as if he is nonexistent. In other words, his existence is completely erased from the opponent's perception this time, rather than merely being unseen.

In Version 3, which is his strongest version, he states that he erases his existence from the opponent's memory itself, causing the opponent to forget who he even is while he appears completely normal and nobody remembers him.
Guenael's ability revolves solely around manipulating perception through three versions.

When the opponent throws a punch at him, they are actually hitting only an afterimage left behind in their vision, which is why the attack passes through that afterimage, as explained above.
In any case, I still do not see anything supporting NEP at all. This ability is simply a perception-manipulation ability with three versions.

When his existence disappears, he becomes as if nonexistent only from the opponent's perspective. Their five senses, sensing abilities, or anything else will not help them locate him or do anything against him, because to them he becomes as though he does not exist, while in reality he still does.

Holy ****,

Please mods, release me from this torture.

I disagree for obvious reasons.

Hellscream said:

Holy ****,

Please mods, release me from this torture.

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"For the sake of our verse, we must be better"

Most exalted Azerty-sama,​

I beseech thee to pardon mine unspeakable insolence, for in a moment of grievous folly did I dare address thy most radiant and superior personage, as though mine own words were worthy to enter thine ears. Verily, I knew not the full measure of my transgression, though now mine shame doth weigh upon me as a thousand stones.

Thou art a being of such immeasurable wisdom and grandeur that even the heavens themselves might tremble before thy judgment. Yet still did I, a lowly and witless creature, presume to speak unto thee what hath already been spoken by countless others afore me. Aye, that which all men have already explained unto thee a hundredfold, I will foolishly repeat, as though thy boundless intellect had not already mastered it long ere my tongue wagged upon the matter.

For this offense, I shall carry great embarrassment within mine heart. I pray thee, cast not thy righteous wrath upon me, but grant unto thy humble servant a morsel of mercy. Henceforth shall I endeavor to remember mine station and refrain from burdening thee with explanations thou hast surely heard since the dawn of time itself.

Furthermore, O most sagacious and illustrious Azerty, if I may with utmost humility venture yet another observation before thy boundless wisdom, I would fain submit the following for thy consideration:

Azertyhuuh said:

"My existence is no longer there." This proves that he still exists and is simply somewhere else. That is the only reasonable interpretation of the phrase “my existence is no longer there.”

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It doth not necessarily follow, noble sir, that because a thing is no longer found in one place, it must therefore be found in another. Verily, many a lesser mind hath stumbled upon this very point and emerged sorely confounded. For when a thing hath vanished from where once it stood, there are divers possibilities before us. (basically, you're commiting a fallacy by limiting the number of possible options to one, although multiple options exist)

A thing may indeed have journeyed elsewhere, and thus be discovered in some distant quarter. Yet this is not the sole fate that may befall it. For it may also be that the thing hath ceased altogether to be. It may have perished, been consumed, undone, unmade, or otherwise departed from existence entire, completely disappearing. (Which is exactly how Guanael describes his ability and how it's shown to work)

Thus, if one doth observe that a thing is not here, one cannot by that fact alone proclaim with certainty that it must be somewhere. For there remaineth the possibility that it is nowhere at all, losing its existence, which utterly disappears.

Azertyhuuh said:

I want to understand how hiding my existence or my form qualifies as possessing NEP; only then can I accept the argument.

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Yet here, O Azerty of peerless intellect, must I confess to a further source of bewilderment. For thou didst, whether by design or by some stratagem beyond the grasp of ordinary mortals, employ the word existence as though it were but a simple synonym for presence, despite the two being as distinct as the sun and the candle, the ocean and the puddle.

For presence concerneth where a thing may be present or observed; existence concerneth whether a thing be at all. A turnip hidden beneath the soil still existeth. Yet that which hath ceased to exist is not merely absent from one place or another—it is absent from all places, forevermore.

And thus, when thou didst conflate these terms, I found myself in the peculiar position of attempting to discern whether thou wert speaking carelessly, rhetorically, or whether thou hadst deliberately exchanged one meaning for another in order to transform a straightforward matter into a labyrinth fit to torment philosophers for generations.

Naturally, I hesitate even to entertain the latter possibility, for surely a mind as magnificent as thine would never sow such confusion without purpose. Nevertheless, I deemed it prudent to mention that the argument doth lean rather heavily upon treating presence and existence as though they were interchangeable, when in truth they are not companions but distant cousins at best.

Azertyhuuh said:

Hiding my form or existence from an opponent does not mean that I am nonexistent, and that is completely obvious.

No one has been able to answer this so far. Hiding my existence simply means that the opponent is unable to know my location or sense my presence


Hiding your existence ≠ Nonexistence

Billions of fictional characters can hide their existence and even their form, so why are they not all granted NEP?

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Moreover, O venerable Azerty, there remaineth one final matter upon which countless souls have already labored, toiling ceaselessly in the hope of conveying it unto thy enlightened understanding.

Namely, that Guanael doth not merely hide his existence, nor secrete it away in some distant corner of creation as a miser hideth coin beneath the floorboards. Such a notion hath been proposed, examined, and set aside many times already.

For if a thing be hidden, then it still existeth. Though unseen, it yet remaineth. Though undiscovered, it yet occupieth some place within reality. A hidden object is still an object; a concealed being is still a being. (This is Guanael's first version)

Yet the claim concerning Guanael, as hath been explained by many patient and long-suffering individuals before me, is not that he withdraweth from observation, nor that he masketh his presence, nor that he transporteth himself beyond the reach of perception.

Rather, it is that he becometh nonexistent.

That is to say, during such a state there is no Guanael lurking behind a curtain, no Guanael waiting in another realm, no Guanael occupying some undisclosed location whilst mischievously evading detection. There is, quite simply, no Guanael.

Thus the question "Where is he?" becometh somewhat akin to asking where yesterday's sunset presently resideth, or in which cupboard one might locate a flame that hath been utterly extinguished. The question presupposeth the continued existence of the thing in question, whereas the very point under discussion is that said existence hath ceased.

This distinction, O most distinguished Azerty, hath been expounded upon by many voices before mine own. Indeed, so frequently hath it been repeated that I fear I add little save another grain of sand to a beach already vast beyond measure. Yet seeing as the matter continueth to arise, I humbly place this grain before thee nonetheless.

Should I have erred in repeating what hath already been explained a score of times by wiser men than I, I once again beg thy pardon for such intolerable presumption.

I offer this not as instruction—for Heaven forfend that I should presume to instruct thee—but merely as a humble recitation of that which hath doubtless already been explained unto thee by every scholar, peasant, merchant, philosopher, shepherd, and passing goose from hence unto the ends of Christendom.

Should this reminder prove unnecessary, as surely it must to one such as thee, I beg thy forgiveness once more for having occupied even a fleeting moment of thy precious attention.

May thy magnificence endure eternal outlasting thy universe.

Thy ever-penitent correspondent,

Meat

P.S. (TL;DR):​

What you are describing for Vanishing Point's 2nd version is basically its 1st version, where his form, thus his shape, color, size, smell, presence itself are concealed.

The 2nd version is textbook NEP, Guanael's existence itself completely disappearing. It does not mean that he moved it somewhere else or whatever, he just became nonexistent.

Your confusion stems from using the phrase "no longer there" to infer it must be somewhere else, which isn't necessarily true and we saw it isn't true at all in Guanael's case and also from misusing "existence" as "presence" when it fits what you want to argue.

Basically you're twisting words and drawing conclusions that aren't necessarily implied by the text, while also being directly contradicted by the story.

Azertyhuuh said:

Watch the episode yourself.

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Hope this explains it.

Alright, this will be my last reply here, and I do not want anyone to respond to me after this, because everyone has already replied repeatedly as you say, so there is no point in anyone repeating it to me again.

Version 1 hides his form and makes him invisible, and I am not confusing Version 1 with Version 2 as some people here assume. I know the difference between them very well. I have also understood what everyone here is saying, and repeating it to me like this is nothing but a waste of time, because the argument itself is not correct and I cannot agree with it.

Version 1 hides his form and makes him invisible.

* "IN VERSION 1, MY FORM DISAPPEARS."

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Version 2 makes his existence disappear and places him completely outside the opponent's perception, as though he were entirely nonexistent from the opponent's perspective. However, you still exist, but your existence is nonexistent to the opponent, and even touching you becomes impossible as well.

Version 3, which is his strongest version, erases his existence from his opponent's memory.

Now let me prove this from the anime itself.

Version 1 is simply the disappearance of his form, making him invisible, and our issue is not with this version.

Version 2:

In this scene, Yachiru throws a punch at Guenael Lee and fails to hit him even though the punch passed through his face, and this proves that he is intangible in Version 2, as I said.



So in Version 2, he also cannot be touched. However, as everyone can see, he still exists, and Yachiru was also able to determine his location through her instincts. This is what surprised Guenael Lee and led him to call her an animal, because in Version 2 his entire existence disappears from her perspective and he cannot be perceived at all. Despite that, Yachiru charged at him, threw a punch at his face, and located him, while that punch passed through his face because he was in Version 2. It should have been impossible for her to determine his location, yet when she told him that she moved by instinct, he described her as an animal.



As everyone can see, he is clearly surprised, and even his eye pops out from the shock because she was able to determine his location despite him being in Version 2, where his existence completely disappears from her perspective.

And here he describes her as an animal ↓



This is evidence for everything I said, and the conclusion from all of this is that in this Version 2 his existence disappears from the opponent’s perception, as he himself stated.



As everyone can see, this is about perception, as I have always been saying. In short, what happens in Version 2 has nothing to do with NEP.

1. He exists, and the proof is that Yachiru can determine his location through her instincts, which means he is still present.

2. When his existence disappears from the opponent’s perception completely in this version, he becomes as if he does not exist to them, and he cannot even be touched in this state (intangibility).

3. This proves that he exists and has a specific location within space that can be targeted and attacked, but he cannot be touched. This version makes him completely nonexistent from the opponent’s perspective. Guenael Lee was still surprised, however, that Yachiru was able to determine his location through instinct alone while in a state of rage and still land a punch—yet the punch passed through him, and he called her an animal.

Now we continue:

Here, Guenael Lee attacks angrily with his sword in order to kill Yachiru, but at that moment he sensed something and immediately activated Version 2 in order to avoid Yachiru’s attack. He successfully avoided the attack in Version 2, where Yachiru’s sword passed through him without causing any effect. He then jumped back while still in Version 2, where his form appears greenish-black and slightly distorted; his eyes are visible, but he cannot be touched or perceived by the opponent. The sword passed through him, and he leapt backward. When he landed on the ground, just one moment later his head exploded while still in Version 2, and he returned to his normal state.

The sword passes through his face, thereby avoiding the attack.


He jumped backward in Version 2, and we can see him:






Here, he is still in Version 2, and look now how that attack hit him while he is in Version 2, even though he is intangible and evaded the attack and everything, and he is completely nonexistent from her perspective.



As everyone can see, that attack passed around him and he dodged it and jumped away while in Version 2. After landing on the ground at a distance, as a result of that attack, and while still in Version 2, he immediately returned to his normal state and exited Version 2 after being hit by the attack even while in that state.

Here, Yachiru tells him that after releasing her power, her sword in this state can hit the target whether they dodge the attack or not, and this is the reason why the sword still hit him even while he was in Version 2, even though he had already evaded the attack, because the attack had already passed through him in the first place.

My sword strikes its Target whether they dodge its or not.

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Conclusion here:

In Version 2, his existence completely disappears from the opponent’s perception, as if he does not exist at all from the opponent’s point of view. He cannot be sensed or interacted with in any way because he is nonexistent to you, and he cannot even be touched, even though he still exists.

• His location can still be identified, and a punch can be directed at him, as Yachiru did using her instincts, which surprised Guenael Lee that she was able to locate him even in this state, where he is nonexistent from her perception. However, he still exists, and his form is still present. He remains in a greenish-black, slightly distorted version of his normal appearance. He can jump into the air and land on the ground, as happened when Yachiru’s attack passed through his head.

His head can also be injured even in Version 2, and the proof is that when he was hit in Version 2, the state was immediately canceled and he returned to his normal form, with his face bleeding because the attack had passed through his head when Yachiru struck him while he was in Version 2. This confirms what I said: he remains in Version 2 with his full body, head, and position intact, but he is intangible and nonexistent from the opponent’s perception, appearing in his usual greenish-black distorted form.

If he were truly in a state of non-existence, the opponent would not be able to locate him at all, he would have no position within existence, he would have no form at all, and he would not be able to jump, escape, fall to the ground, or be hit, etc.

Version 2 would include: perception manipulation, intangibility, and resistance to sensory perception.

I believe resistance to perception is more accurate, since Yachiru was still able to locate him through instinct and even managed to cancel Version 2.

This is my final reply here. I have clarified everything, and I will now wait for the staff’s opinion.

Azertyhuuh said:

Hello everyone, before I begin, I ask that you stay on topic and remain respectful, as I am only trying to correct the mistakes.

Today I will remove NEP 1 and NEP 3 as well, of course because their justifications are incorrect, since the time they were obtained is outdated (dating back to 2022). So today I will try to explain this matter.

This is the justification present in the character profile Guenael Lee:

• Invisibility, Nonexistent Physiology, Illusion Creation and Memory Manipulation (Nature: Type 1 and 3 – Aspect: Type 1 and 3 – The Vanishing Point is an ability that works in 3 stages. In stage one, Guenael becomes invisible to even Lieutenant-Class Shinigami[1], beings which can visually perceive spirit ribbons[2] which are invisible to those who can visually perceive invisible souls[3], he also retains his ability to attack while in this form[4]. In stage two, Guenael is capable of causing his very “existence” to disappear from “reality” itself[5], with this “existence” being comprised of his soul, mind, and body[6] This “stage” also leaves behind an illusory image of himself as the last remainder of his existence[7]. Guenael can switch between each stage instantly[8]. The third and final stage of The Vanishing Point allows Guenael to erase his very existence from the opponent's memory[9]),

This character possesses the Vanishing Point ability, and I will now explain this ability correctly, as the justification everyone sees here is incorrect.

Guenael Lee’s ability is an ability that deceives the opponent by reducing the probability of them perceiving him, and I will now explain the versions and stages of this ability.

• Version 1: In this stage, he hides his body, meaning he becomes invisible to the opponent, and thus the opponent cannot even know his location.

• Version 2: In this version, he changes his location of existence, as after his form begins to disappear, he shifts his position.

• Version 3: In this case, Guenael Lee erases his existence from his opponents’ memory entirely, so the opponents will not even be aware of his existence or recognize him at all. In short, the opponent forgets who he is entirely, which is memory manipulation.

Now I will explain where the error is in their NEP justification and the incorrect assumption. Before that, these are the images that are being referenced, of course ↓

Image 1:

As everyone can observe in the first image, exactly as I explained, the mistake made by supporters years ago was the assumption that in Version 2, Guenael Lee erased his own existence, meaning he no longer exists. This is the error. In reality, when the text states that his existence disappears, it means the following ↓





I have brought you the full text so you can understand it if you did not understand it from the image. It is the same text—look carefully at what is meant in Version 2. It states that when his form begins to disappear, meaning he becomes invisible, he leaves an illusory image in that location, and his presence at that point disappears because he moves away while being invisible in the first place. When the opponent tries to attack, they do not hit him because they are attacking an illusory copy he left in that location while he is not actually there. After that, the text states that his existence is no longer there, meaning only that he has changed position. The supporters, when reading this, did not complete the full context because at the beginning it says in Version 2 “my existence disappears,” and then immediately afterward it explains that he has simply changed position. Thus, his existence in that specific location is no longer there only in the sense that he moved, not that he ceased to exist entirely. All he does is become invisible, leave an illusory image in the same place, move, and change position. When the opponent attacks, they only hit the illusion he left in Version 2 while he has already moved elsewhere. Therefore, his existence in that location is gone only because he changed position, not because he stopped existing.

Image 2:

In Version 3, he simply erases his existence from the opponent’s memory, after which the opponent no longer remembers him at all. This is memory manipulation.

Conclusion:

NEP 1 and NEP 3 should be completely removed and deleted from all other character profiles.

Other justifications may be added: invisibility, and memory manipulation, although I believe he possesses memory manipulation.

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Agree:
Disagree:
Neutral:

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Disagree. you are completely misunderstanding the scene and how yachiru's shikai works to fit your headcanon.
sanpo kenju creates two invisible entities that strike before and after her main blade. when guenael used version 2, he became nonexistent, which is why her main sword phased straight through his face. however he has to eventually materialize/exit version 2 to act or after dodging. because sanpo kenju has a delayed follow up strike, it caught him the exact moment he became existent again.

getting caught by a multi stage, delayed attack because you dropped your ability does not debunk NEP. It just proves yachiru's shikai is a perfect counter to it.
you can't just forcefully redefine the literal statement "my existence disappears" into "intangibility + perception manip" simply because you don't like it. the author explicitly separated hiding his form (version 1) from erasing his existence (version 2).
still heavily disagreeing with this thread.

Noir2340 said:

Disagree. you are completely misunderstanding the scene and how yachiru's shikai works to fit your headcanon.
sanpo kenju creates two invisible entities that strike before and after her main blade. when guenael used version 2, he became nonexistent, which is why her main sword phased straight through his face. however he has to eventually materialize/exit version 2 to act or after dodging. because sanpo kenju has a delayed follow up strike, it caught him the exact moment he became existent again.

getting caught by a multi stage, delayed attack because you dropped your ability does not debunk NEP. It just proves yachiru's shikai is a perfect counter to it.
you can't just forcefully redefine the literal statement "my existence disappears" into "intangibility + perception manip" simply because you don't like it. the author explicitly separated hiding his form (version 1) from erasing his existence (version 2).
still heavily disagreeing with this thread.

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I disagree.

What you said is not correct and is not supported by what is shown in the scene. Guenael did not return to his normal state by his own will. Rather, the attack that passed around his head due to his intangibility affected him after he jumped backward and landed on the ground, while he was still in Version 2. This resulted in his Version 2 state being canceled. It was not that he returned to his normal state first and then got hit by the attack that had passed around him. No—as you can see in the image before you, the attack tore through his face while he was still in Version 2, which caused his Version 2 existence to be canceled.

Yachiru’s ability is also not as you described it. Your explanation contradicts the ability of her sword, because Yachiru herself states that her sword hits the target whether they dodge the attack or not. This is the reason why the sword affected him even after he dodged the attack in Version 2, and while he was still in Version 2 as well. As you can see before you, the attack affected him in Version 2 itself, and this is the image ↓



And here is the scene as well, you can watch it here ↓



As you can see, the scene is completely clear. The attack hit him while he was in Version 2, and because of this, he returned to his normal state against his will. He was surprised and said, "What??" while holding his face after taking the attack in Version 2, and thus he returned to his normal form involuntarily.

What happens is simply that his existence disappears only from the opponents’ point of view. His existence disappears from their perception, and he becomes as though completely nonexistent to them, while he still exists.



Guenael has a location, and his location can be identified through Yachiru’s instincts. If he were truly in a state of nonexistence, sensing his existence through instinct would be completely impossible. You cannot perceive, sense, or determine the location of something that does not exist, because it is nonexistent and therefore has no place where it exists to be identified. Yet here, Yachiru located him through her instincts and threw a punch at him, even though it passed through him, which caused Guenael to become surprised and angry. He could not believe that she had perceived his location through instinct alone and afterward described her as an animal. I already sent the images in the comment here.

You ignored half of the replies in the comment even though I pointed out many contradictions that refute your argument. Even the points you did respond to are not correct and contradict what is shown in the scene.

Anyone here can see that he was struck while still in Version 2 itself, which led to it being canceled against his will, because Yachiru’s sword is capable of hitting the target whether they dodge the attack or not. That is exactly what happened. This is the sword’s ability. So when he dodged the attack and moved backward, the attack still affected him afterward while he was still in Version 2, which forced him to return to his original state against his own will while he was clearly surprised.

Conclusion:

• He becomes nonexistent only from the opponent’s perception, as he himself said when he stated that he was nonexistent only to you.

• He has a specific location, and this is not a trait of someone in a true state of nonexistence, since Yachiru was able to determine his position and throw a punch that passed through him, which surprised Guenael because she identified his location through instinct and called her an animal. This means he has an actual location.

• She managed to hit him in Version 2, which caused him to return to his original state against his will.

• He can move and jump in Version 2, and he also has a greenish-black form while his eye remains visible or glowing. In this state he becomes intangible because he is nonexistent from the opponent’s perspective, which is why the opponent cannot hit him, except that Yachiru’s sword ability allowed her to strike him while he was in Version 2.

All of these points argue against him being in a true state of nonexistence.

A character in a state of nonexistence does not have a form, cannot be struck, and does not have a fixed location. They also cannot be sensed through instinct because they do not exist in the first place—so how could something nonexistent be sensed through instinct alone?

Frankly, I do not agree with you, and you also did not address everything. I have now explained that there are many contradictions here. And if you still disagree after this comment, then it would be better not to reply to me.

"This is my final response" with another excruciating wall of text, round 32854905923

He's just trying to mentally exhaust people atp, shifting goalposts as well

Soooo anyone got the tickets for the theater?

After my last response I had decided not to reply to the thread until staff made their decision. However in order to ensure that staff who aren't knowledgeable on the verse is able to understand what's going on here I decided to reply to the "contradictions" brought up.

Before I begin though I would have to genuinely question if the OP has conducted any research on the topic he is trying to debunk or has just watched a few cut and edited clips and made a CRT. I don't expect people who don't follow the series to be an expert on everything but the least someone can do before making a CRT is to read the concerned chapter or watch the full uncut episode so that time is not wasted arguing points that are spelled out directly in the source material.

At this point I would even have to question if the OP is arguing based on bad faith and clogging the thread with walls of text and throwing shit at the wall to just see if anything sticks.

Azertyhuuh said:

Yachiru’s ability is also not as you described it. Your explanation contradicts the ability of her sword, because Yachiru herself states that her sword hits the target whether they dodge the attack or not. This is the reason why the sword affected him even after he dodged the attack in Version 2, and while he was still in Version 2 as well. As you can see before you, the attack affected him in Version 2 itself, and this is the image ↓

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If you had even bothered watching a second after she says the dialogue of her zanpakuto being undodgeable you would have seen her explanation of why she says so. This is the detailed ability of her shikai. I have attached scans from both the manga and anime.

As mentioned in the attached scans and by multiple users previously Yachiru's shikai ability summons two invisible monsters who mimic her zanpakuto swings. One monster strikes before her zanpakuto and one after. So basically when Yachiru swings it goes something like this:
Invisible monster 1 slash -- Yachiru's Zanpakuto Swing-- Invisible monster 2 slash.

This should also be evident from the scan I attached of her attacking with both her monsters for reference. This information is spelled out directly both in the manga and anime in a clear cut manner so arguing against this is just a waste of time.

Yachiru then proceeds to explain why Gunael was hit wherein she states the more he tries to watch her zanpakuto and time it to dodge by switching versions the more likely he will be hit because of its unpredictability and by confusing his timing. This is exactly what happens even in the slow motion clip you posted. Yachiru swings with her shikai at Gunael who has materialized. Gunael who is unaware of Yachiru's ability and the invisible monsters only tracks and times her actual zanpakuto swing. So he switches to version 2 based on this timing however he was already too late as the monster that predates her zanpakuto swing has already hit him before he even completed the switch. So again this is not a contradiction to his NEP.

Yet here, Yachiru located him through her instincts and threw a punch at him, even though it passed through him, which caused Guenael to become surprised and angry. He could not believe that she had perceived his location through instinct alone and afterward described her as an animal. I already sent the images in the comment here.

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Completely false. This isn't what happened at all. After Gunael erased his existence the first time he appeared again to re-introduce himself but Yachiru even though she doesn't know who he is or if he is a friend or an enemy based on her internal instincts attacks him. Isane even comments on this by stating why did she attack a person who they dont know is a friend or enemy to which Yachiru states that its just her instinct and is why Gunael calls her a wild animal with no common sense. You can see in the attached scans where he materializes himself first to re-introduce himself which is when Yachiru senses him and goes for the punch. So again this isn't a contradiction to his NEP in Version 2 and 3.

He becomes nonexistent only from the opponent’s perception, as he himself said when he stated that he was nonexistent only to you.

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False. His existence was erased from Isane's memory who was a pure spectator and didn't take part in the battle.

• He has a specific location, and this is not a trait of someone in a true state of nonexistence, since Yachiru was able to determine his position and throw a punch that passed through him, which surprised Guenael because she identified his location through instinct and called her an animal. This means he has an actual location.

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False. Yachiru never senses his location when he was in Version 2 and 3 and threw a punch when he materialized and became existent for which scans have been posted. The remaining I already explained in my previous section.

She managed to hit him in Version 2, which caused him to return to his original state against his will.

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False. He was never hit in Version 2 as explained earlier with scans of Yachiru explaining how she injured him by confusing his timing for switching between Version 1 and 2 of his ability.

He can move and jump in Version 2, and he also has a greenish-black form while his eye remains visible or glowing. In this state he becomes intangible because he is nonexistent from the opponent’s perspective, which is why the opponent cannot hit him, except that Yachiru’s sword ability allowed her to strike him while he was in Version 2.

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What is this point even? Will the argument next be that we can hear his voice therefore its a contradiction against non existence? Most of this is artistic to showcase to the audience what's going on in Gunael's mind and what actions he is doing or else the fight would just have been Yachiru swinging at the air and the audience not having a clue what's going on. You could have had a point here if the characters could still see him but he is still not visible or existent to them. Also her sword ability point already debunked above.

I disagree.

Version 2 erases his very existence; in that state, he's never harmed.

He goes to reppear, planning to introduce himself again after erasing himself from their memory, but Yachiru attacks him the instant he does, causing him to go nonexistent again.

Easy disagree from me as well. It has been quite thoroughly explained.

LephyrTheRevanchist said:

Easy disagree from me as well. It has been quite thoroughly explained.

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Please come and help me just by voting, only by voting. Three people have already voted, and I only need your vote here.

Azertyhuuh said:

Please come and help me just by voting, only by voting. Three people have already voted, and I only need your vote here.

Adding NEP 1 to the gods; NEP 2 to the End; AC4 and nonexistence erasure (Nature Type 1) to Yogiri—along with all aspects.

I was asked to tag some staffs but scans in the OP aren't working, fix them first. Come help me with the voting.

vsbattles.com

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Bro...

Mods coming in to clutch

Can't believe you people dragged this to 3 pages

AzertyGPT

EldemadeDityjon said:

Can't believe you people dragged this to 3 pages

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Have you seen OP's other threads?...

So umm not to draw any conclusions but let's be clear, OP has been debating everyone and I mean everyone I don't think a single person agreed with him so far on his conclusions going so far as to say that after making a thread no-one will be able to change his opinions. Then after that the moment mods come in to vote and present their opinion, OP abandons ship and ask them to visit his thread ? I mean asking that in another CRT in itself is against the rules I am sure after all you have the CRT Promotion thread for that, you can message mods on their walls and so on but aside from that it shows that he has no and I mean no actual valid reason to argue against the abilities and for his debunk other than to merely gather traffic for his other CRT'S which is a pretty sh!tty thing to do. Like you can't just target verses exhaust supporters with 3 pages of argument all whilst knowing damm well your argument doesn't make sense with your intention being to divert attention to your other CRT's ?
I maybe extrapolating a bit too much but this is what it looks like to me.

LephyrTheRevanchist said:

Easy

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ActuallySpaceMan42 said:

disagree

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Azertyhuuh said:

Please come and help me just by voting, only by voting. Three people have already voted, and I only need your vote here.

Adding NEP 1 to the gods; NEP 2 to the End; AC4 and nonexistence erasure (Nature Type 1) to Yogiri—along with all aspects.

I was asked to tag some staffs but scans in the OP aren't working, fix them first. Come help me with the voting.

vsbattles.com

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Don't advertise again on a CRT. Go to a staff member wall or PM for a request.

Robo432343 said:

AzertyGPT

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Dark_Soul20189 said:

Have you seen OP's other threads?...

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These kinds of comments are unnecessary. You two specially should know this by now. Don't do it again.

Edit: The topic seems very thoroughly rejected, so I will be closing the thread now.