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TenSura LN Revision — God Loves Change!

Astral_Trinity439

Astral_Trinity439

He/Him
Messages
4,566
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6,895
Introduction​
Hello everyone, Astral here again. Hope ya'll are doing well. Now we're taking a step back from tier upgrades and focusing on hax. Without more yapping, let's get right into it.

As always, avoid any toxic/derailing behavior, be civil and respect others!
Table of Contents​
So previously we once attempted to get Acausality Type 5 for God via this:
Veldanava might’ve been a romantic, but he was also a perfectionist. Ideals were fine and all, but he had a colder side to him that immediately cut away things that had no chance of happening. Thanks to him throwing away omnipotence for the sake of experiencing genuine change, the ideal society he envisioned was no longer possible to implement. But to Veldanava, that was the right decision to make. A world that moved strictly on his own will didn’t seem remotely interesting to him.
V16 Epilogue OTL
Click to expand...
But Aca5 was later removed from that thread for various reasons. Plus at that time there wasn't a solid argument, now there is.

First off, let's look at God's profile:
Complex Multiverse level (God is the Universal Consciousness that is Perfect and Complete, with everything merely being a part of it)
Click to expand...
Click to expand...

So basically he is everything, but he is also devoid of everything and exists before them. Before we go into the proposals of these threads, please read this thread if you haven't already:
vsbattles.com

Name: Veldanava Key Division — Part 2

Goodmorning/evening everyone The previous CRT was a success, so we're here again with part 2. Today I wanted to separate All-One and Veldanava into separate profiles. Veldanava and Ivarage Not Dead Different Concepts of All-One Proposals Here's the summary of the what I want to be...
vsbattles.com vsbattles.com

In case you don't wanna read allat, here's one scan that summarizes it all:
The Dragon Species are the Avatars/Manifestations of God, of which there are only four. On the other hand, the Dragon Kings might be said to be devices created in order to protect the natural environment. Water Dragons possess the power to control water, and for example, Elmesia’s Guardian Dragon King possesses the power to govern the weather and trees.
Special Booklet
Click to expand...
(This is from the Movie Booklet, so the story takes place around Volume 8~9 arc. Therefore Rimuru and Ivarage are not included and it's "four" (all Vel siblings).

Now, starting with our arguments...

God resides in a world of death (complete Void) without any beginning or end, in a "state" where all change ceases to exist:
Luvelage thinks.
What is called contradiction…?
What first existed was a world of “death” without end. However the “beginning” called “life” also did not exist in that world. There was neither excess nor deficiency it was filled with tranquility.
Fearing change, it was dozing as if dreaming. Amidst that, one half leapt out toward freedom with courage in its chest.
And for the first time, it came to know something called loneliness. Just as Veldanava was so, the still unnamed Ivaraje also came to feel loneliness.
If one returns to omniscience and omnipotence, all change ceases to exist. If one cries out that they dislike that, then one must carve open the path oneself.
Veldanava sought a new world, new companions. In contrast to that, Ivaraje, lacking the courage to obtain wisdom and emotion, chose the path of feeling nothing.
Source
V23C5
Click to expand...
Thus, there is no path to create. The Will(s), which is/are everything) are born from God, and if it seeks to return to God, it will return to a state where all change ceases to exist.

Said "Will(s)" encompasses everything:
Hahaha, you see, that’s because I am not something like omniscient and omnipotent. When I was born, only my will existed. At that time, I was fulfilled, and there was not a single thing lacking. Perfect and flawless, “All-one” in other words, it was a world where only I existed. That kind of thing is boring, isn’t it?
Source
V16E
Click to expand...

Which includes the Law of Causality and the Cause & Effect behind everything:
But Shion was learning. The ability that her unique skill Master Chef provided—the one that let her reach the results she hoped for with absolute certainty—applied itself to the laws of cause and effect, continually optimizing her body as best as possible.
OTL V21C1
Click to expand...
“Everything has a cause and an effect, and if you figure out the laws behind allthat, you might even be able to find a way home…is what you’re saying?”
OTL V4C5
Click to expand...

This state thus has no diversity, it is an unchanging state:
That’s right. Thinking about it, it had been wrong from the very beginning. Did not Lord Veldanava always desire a world filled with diversity!

Even if one were omniscient and omnipotent, loneliness is disliked and thus it was Veldanava who separated from Ivarage. Such a lord would never ignore our opinions. Only now did Feldway come to realize this.
Source
V23C5
Click to expand...

On a side note, should add this scan to God's profile in the form of Avatar Creation (already there but in Attacks and Techniques instead of PnA):
The Dragon Species are the Avatars/Manifestations of God, of which there are only four. On the other hand, the Dragon Kings might be said to be devices created in order to protect the natural environment. Water Dragons possess the power to control water, and for example, Elmesia’s Guardian Dragon King possesses the power to govern the weather and trees.
Special Booklet
Click to expand...

Thus:
  1. In the state of God, there is no causality, no change/transformations. All change ceases to exist.
  2. Everything is born from God, yet God is devoid of everything.
  3. It exists in a "world" (Void) with no beginning nor end.
  4. To seek change, the "Will" (that encompass everything, including the Law of Causality) born from God manifest as avatars.
Meanwhile, Acausality type 5 is:
Type 5: Causality Transcendence: Characters with this type of Acausality are completely independent of cause and effect, existing outside causality. Characters of this nature require evidence of being unable to be changed by any effect that relies on a system of causality, meaning that interacting with them normally is impossible.
Click to expand...

TL;DR
  • Thus, based on the above reasoning, God should get Acausality (Type 5) and Avatar Creation (Ability).
Votes​
Agree:
Elizhaa

@AlexSamDen @Ciel_Trinity439 @Noobish2006 @Explosion-Proximity @MotherStar @DrunkMan04 @K'rimuru @AstraphelNoctis4 @RimuruTempestLN @ReasonedZebra834 @Re5yh @Grabbing_dragon @Zanesucksatlife @Pluto321 @EdosaEdebiri @Ayato256 @Theunidentifiedrakiel_54648 @sukuna171 @MSahla @Ball_of_light @Robo432343 @PrimeHydra64 @CJunitilarian @Humanitus_Primevilus888 @Ronaldinhxt1

RaikiKurohane99
Disagree:

Neutral:

Larp:
@Ultimuru @Hecky2222 @Berga14
____________________________________________
 
Last edited:
Ciel_Trinity439 said:
I agree
Click to expand...
415e0263fc09.gif
 
sukuna171 said:
I could be wrong, but since God is connected to everything, wouldn’t that mean God is connected to causality as well? By the way, I’m anime-only, so I don’t know everything about Tensei.
Click to expand...
No. Well since you said you're anime-only, idk how much you're willing to spoil yourself, so I'll put it in a spoiler box:
I'll copypaste the description from God's profile:
God, also called Perfection (Infinity), is one of the Supreme Beings of Tensei Shitara Slime Datta Ken.

The concept of “Divinity” is perceived differently depending on the time and place, and this one is based on the belief in the Great Holy Spirit, one of the many ways to think of the “All-One”.

Before concepts such as Time and Space, “it” was drifting in the World of Death, a world with no beginning nor end. Fearing change, it slumbered as if dreaming. Then a Will was born, a will without any form or body. It was Omnipotent and Omniscient, as much as a dreamer inside their own dream. As the Will had not taken any form, it was essentially the world itself, Perfection, Completeness, lacking absolutely nothing.

However, a part of that will soon grew bored of the unchanging world, a world where it could perceive everything. And so diversity was born, created by two conflicting Wills. One sought freedom and to perceive change, another ought to bear the loneliness, too afraid of the changing world. Thus these wills separated, manifesting as Ivarage and Veldanava, Destroyer and Creator, Yin & Yang. Their dreamlike sense of Omnipotence was gone, replaced by the forever changing world.

Then, at the same time as when Veldanava created the world, other similar wills were born and manifested from the same source as Veldanava, sharing the same Origin (God). And so the world began to move with Order, until Infinity converges into Zero, Perfection into Nothingness (Death) once again, until all illusions converge into the Profound, until all contradictions dissolve, returning to the All-One.
Click to expand...

Basically in summary: Everything is a part of God's Will, but God itself exists devoid of everything and anything. As the scan in the OP says, "If one returns to omniscience and omnipotence, all change ceases to exist.".

Hopefully that changes your disagreement 🤔
 
Astral_Trinity439 said:
No. Well since you said you're anime-only, idk how much you're willing to spoil yourself, so I'll put it in a spoiler box:
I'll copypaste the description from God's profile:

Basically in summary: Everything is a part of God's Will, but God itself exists devoid of everything and anything. As the scan in the OP says, "If one returns to omniscience and omnipotence, all change ceases to exist.".

Hopefully that changes your disagreement 🤔
Click to expand...
You make a lot of good points, but I have one question and don’t mind a few spoilers. Doesn’t Veldanava discarding omniscience and omnipotence by his own will imply that a change occurred?
 
sukuna171 said:
You make a lot of good points, but I have one question and don’t mind a few spoilers. Doesn’t Veldanava discarding omniscience and omnipotence by his own will imply that a change occurred?
Click to expand...
Veldanava was never "Omnipotent" per say.
Well, emphasize on this part:
Before concepts such as Time and Space, “it” was drifting in the World of Death, a world with no beginning nor end. Fearing change, it slumbered as if dreaming. Then a Will was born, a will without any form or body. It was Omnipotent and Omniscient, as much as a dreamer inside their own dream. As the Will had not taken any form, it was essentially the world itself, Perfection, Completeness, lacking absolutely nothing.

However, a part of that will soon grew bored of the unchanging world, a world where it could perceive everything. And so diversity was born, created by two conflicting Wills. One sought freedom and to perceive change, another ought to bear the loneliness, too afraid of the changing world. Thus these wills separated, manifesting as Ivarage and Veldanava, Destroyer and Creator, Yin & Yang. Their dreamlike sense of Omnipotence was gone, replaced by the forever changing world.
Click to expand...
This "Will" is the origin of all true dragons, and also the original Veldanava and Ivarage. The blue part refers to Veldanava, purple refers to Ivarage. Red refers to the Unity. And so, in a relation where "God gives birth to -> Will gives birth to -> All True Dragons", we can also conclude "God -> All True Dragons", which is summarized perfectly with this scan:
The Dragon Species are the Avatars/Manifestations of God, of which there are only four. On the other hand, the Dragon Kings might be said to be devices created in order to protect the natural environment. Water Dragons possess the power to control water, and for example, Elmesia’s Guardian Dragon King possesses the power to govern the weather and trees.
Special Booklet
Click to expand...
(This is from the Movie Booklet, so the story takes place around Volume 8~9 arc. Therefore Rimuru and Ivarage are not included and it's "four" (all Vel siblings).

And now one may ask, doesn't that mean the "Will" no longer exists if Ivarage and Veldanava separated? Well, no, because Veldanava and Ivarage were born as materialized manifestations that were one-half of each other. If they were the result of the Will dividing into two, then the Will would cease to exist. But that's not the case since even long after velda and ivarage's division, the same origin (Will) still gave birth to the rest of the true dragons. Which is why we know that Veldanava and Ivarage were merely avatars.
 
Astral_Trinity439 said:
Veldanava was never "Omnipotent" per say.
Well, emphasize on this part:

This "Will" is the origin of all true dragons, and also the original Veldanava and Ivarage. The blue part refers to Veldanava, purple refers to Ivarage. Red refers to the Unity. And so, in a relation where "God gives birth to -> Will gives birth to -> All True Dragons", we can also conclude "God -> All True Dragons", which is summarized perfectly with this scan:

(This is from the Movie Booklet, so the story takes place around Volume 8~9 arc. Therefore Rimuru and Ivarage are not included and it's "four" (all Vel siblings).

And now one may ask, doesn't that mean the "Will" no longer exists if Ivarage and Veldanava separated? Well, no, because Veldanava and Ivarage were born as materialized manifestations that were one-half of each other. If they were the result of the Will dividing into two, then the Will would cease to exist. But that's not the case since even long after velda and ivarage's division, the same origin (Will) still gave birth to the rest of the true dragons. Which is why we know that Veldanava and Ivarage were merely avatars.
Click to expand...
Alright, Acausality Type 5 works fine for me.
 
There was one complete Will that lacked nothing. Then it split into two opposing halves — that is, two conflicting Wills — and the thing called "God" came to an end.

God was merely one complete, perfect Will. After that, it split into two parts, and God ended. It no longer existed. It became subject to change. That single Will underwent change, split apart, and disappeared into two opposing Wills (Veldanava and Ivarage). These two Wills manifested as Veldanava and Ivarage. They are in opposition to each other.

Through this split, everything came into existence. Because Veldanava wanted change and creation, while Ivarage was the side that wanted to preserve perfection and prevent any change, seeking to return to the original state (the single Will that you call God).

In short, God was subjected to change, ended, and disappeared. There is no longer anything called "God" in Tensura from the moment it split into two Wills. Ivarage’s goal is to return to that state — the single Will (God). That is its purpose. That is why it wants to destroy and erase everything, all change, in order to return to that original single state.

This means that that original state has already vanished and ended since the split. Ivarage is the side that rejected this change and split, and is trying to reverse it. It wants to return. This proves that God does not actually exist anymore after splitting into two parts.

I personally do not agree with this idea, because it means God was subjected to change, split into two halves, and ended immediately. It no longer exists at all. Moreover, this denies Type 5 Acausality.

The texts you provided also support what I’m saying:
Luvelage thinks.
What is called contradiction…?
What first existed was a world of “death” without end. However the “beginning” called “life” also did not exist in that world. There was neither excess nor deficiency it was filled with tranquility.
Fearing change, it was dozing as if dreaming. Amidst that, one half leapt out toward freedom with courage in its chest.
And for the first time, it came to know something called loneliness. Just as Veldanava was so, the still unnamed Ivaraje also came to feel loneliness.
If one returns to omniscience and omnipotence, all change ceases to exist. If one cries out that they dislike that, then one must carve open the path oneself.
Veldanava sought a new world, new companions. In contrast to that, Ivaraje, lacking the courage to obtain wisdom and emotion, chose the path of feeling nothing.
Source
V23C5
Click to expand...
Hahaha, you see, that’s because I am not something like omniscient and omnipotent. When I was born, only my will existed. At that time, I was fulfilled, and there was not a single thing lacking. Perfect and flawless, “All-one” in other words, it was a world where only I existed. That kind of thing is boring, isn’t it?
Source
V16E
Click to expand...
 
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