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VS Battles Wiki Forum

ElixirBlue
ElixirBlue
Making a list invulnerability over stat buffs, but am noting now that the comic only ever mentions the Super Forms receiving Attack and Speed buffs, even giving those increases numbers, but only refers to their durability as Invulnerability.

Only Super Forms are said to have Invulnerability. Not the Chaos Emeralds, Chaos Force, nor the Gods who've mastered Chaos Energy and scale far above the Super Forms, whom are also fueled by Chaos Energy. All Chaos Energy in Archie comes from the Chaos Force. The Chaos Force is the objective strongest thing in Archie.

I also must note Attacks have always given Super Sonic discomfort but Super Sonic has only ever mentioned feeling pain from an objectively weaker opponent (Dark Gaia) than the strongest attacks he's taken: "AHHHHHHHH!!! ... I actually felt that..." Issue 287, Super Sonic's only scream of pain in the book, 4 issues before Archie ends for good.

This is going to get wordy:

Sonic & Knuckles vs Master Mogul issue 56
* Sonic and Knuckles survived Master Mogul (1st Tenure)'s attacks with Power Rings on each arms but there's no explanation why and they weren't instantly. Earlier on, Dr. Robotnik mentions having a collection of Power Rings grants things invulnerability to external attacks. This is later supported when the Death Egg ll blew up on the inside and the Power Rings were specifically noted to be holding the ship together.
** Why this matters, going into powerscaling, the Power Rings are created from a single Chaos Emerald. Billions of them. Master Mogul (1st Tenure) held the power of 13... 14? Emeralds (the same issue, Master Mogul notes having more Chaos Energy make you more powerful). While he batted away Base Sonic & Base Knuckles making them grunt, they remained unharmed with only a minuscule collection of Power Rings. After they absorbed Master Mogul attacks and became Super Sonic and Hyper Knuckles, they were physically able to match Master Mogul (1st Tenure) but Master Mogul still was able to bat them away as if they were still in their Base forms holding onto Power Rings. As if their durability between Base and Super didn't change.

Most of Super Sonic's other fights don't show off his Invulnerability, just the norm of him and other Super Forms aren't receiving pain, just grunts of discomfort.

Base Sonic vs Super Sonic issue 126
* This major to note.
Super Sonic was a separate individual and evil (the why for this is definitely unimportant). Super Sonic was about to blast 2 moons with his energy, but Base Sonic rushes in and pushes Super Sonic away, saving those moons. Base Sonic shoving Super Sonic made him grunt before he attacked Base Sonic.

Super Sonic vs Enerjak issue 184
*
Scan from earlier here.
** Enerjak is a character who also uses Chaos Energy like Super Sonic but isn't a Super Form. In this story, he holds the power of Base Knuckles (Who is a Living Chaos Emerald in Archie) and the Master Emerald (in Archie, is a combination of 13... 14? Emeralds). He leads with Matter deconstruction. Matter manipulation from Chaos Energy wizards with no emerald are able to effect Sub-Atomic matter. Dr. Eggman with a single Chaos Emerald can effect/alter the "Quantum level", as that what the doctor aims for in his attempt to get rid of Sonic's FateHax. Super Sonic is hit with Enerjak's attack and Super Sonic smuggily responds "I'm Invulnerable, remember? You'd actually do better fighting me physically, since physical attacks can cause the form some discomfort" or something along those lines.

Super Scourge issue 196
*
Nothing major in terms of showing, but Silver stops a relax Super Scourge with his Psychokinesis, mentioning that Super Scourge is stronger and Invulnerable by he has Psychokinesis. Super Scourge fake compliments Silver but then shouts "But "Invulnerable" means nothing stops me!" and easily breaks out of Silver's Psychokinesis, much to Silver's unexpected surprise.

Super Sonic & Super Megaman vs Egg Wily-Machine X issue 252
*
Unimportant, depending on your view on this, Super Sonic gets himself hit by an unspecified attack of Chaos Energy by EWMX. Apparently, Super Mega Man attempts to fly closer because apparently, that attack was so strong Super Mega Man assumed Super Sonic wouldn't survive it. Super Sonic responds by telling him to keep his distance and reminds Super Mega Man that he's Invulnerable.

Super Genesis Wave issue 252
*
Super Sonic and Super Megaman could not survive the Super Genesis Wave if they had higher durability. The Super Genesis Wave rewrote all of existence and the higher dimensions the Chaos Force existed in, to however and whatever Dr. Eggman and Dr. Wily wished it to be. Ian Flynn, head writer of Archie, confirms Super Sonic's sabotaged SGW reversal conceptually erased the Chaos Force, the source of Super Sonic's power. Super Sonic was only going to reverse all the damage Dr. Eggman's Super Genesis Wave did, which meant Dr. Eggman targeted the Chaos Force. This is important, because Dr. Eggman and Dr. Wily wanted erase Sonic and Mega Man from existence. The only thing that explains the heroes surviving the doctors conceptually rewriting the Chaos Force, the Super Forms' power source, is that Sonic and Mega Man were protected by their Super Forms, which were stated to be Invulnerable.

Super Sonic vs Dark Gaia issue 287
* Post Super Genesis Wave, Super Sonic fights Dark Gaia and Super Sonic tanks a blast and for the first time, mentioning he actually felt pain from Dark Gaia's attack. Dark Gaia should not be stronger than the Chaos Force, as Dark Gaia was only conceptualized by the blown up Super Genesis Wave.

Huff... huff...
Agnaa
Agnaa
Unless I missed something in my read through of that, none of that sounds like it'd help.

Just characters surviving attacks and saying that they're invulnerable, and some specific resistance to hax. Surviving reality warping does not mean that your invulnerability isn't dura; it means that you also have resistance to reality warping.

Even if you tried to just index that under "Invulnerability" that would be incorrect, as Invulnerable characters are vulnerable to reality warping and matter manipulation by default.

So like, I guess you're right that this can't just be indexed as "higher durability", but it also can't just be indexed as "invulnerability".
ElixirBlue
ElixirBlue
Its not that characters are survivng attacks. Both Super forms and Base forms, are dealing the effect on these invulnerable characters. Enerjak with the power of 14 Emeralds can punch Super Sonic, making him go oof, is creating the same effect as a couple of Base forms dogpiling an evil Super Sonic.

Invulnerability characters in Archie can be knocked around by Gods, Super forms, and Base characters equally. Base characters can't do that if its simply higher durability.
Agnaa
Agnaa
So your argument is that because "Invulnerable" characters can take ordinary physical damage from characters of different strengths, that that proves that they're invulnerable?
ElixirBlue
ElixirBlue
"Knocked around" isn't the same as "dealing damage". Its "Invulnerable", not "Immovable".
Agnaa
Agnaa
And a character with high dura could be knocked around by a character with lower AP than their dura; they just wouldn't take damage from it.
ElixirBlue
ElixirBlue
By Infinity? Why are Super Forms grunting by the actions of beings weaker than them by Infinity if its higher durability?
Agnaa
Agnaa
Why are they grunting by the actions of beings weaker than them by infinity if they're invulnerable?
ElixirBlue
ElixirBlue
No idea, but Super Sonic has always stated even when he grunts that he is fine. The only time Super Sonic screamed in Pain was from Dark Gaia, who at the low-end is planetary and gets one-shotted by Super Sonic, making Dark Gaia, the only one who harmed Super Sonic, weaker by one-shot.

Was it an ability of Dark Gaia's or did Super Sonic's durability suddenly got far weaker than his AP?
Agnaa
Agnaa
No idea, but Super Sonic has always stated even when he grunts that he is fine.

If you can't answer it for invulnerability, which gives an effective durability for above what I'm arguing for, then I don't need to answer it.

Was it an ability of Dark Gaia's or did Super Sonic's durability suddenly got far weaker than hid AP?

It works however you explain it when you interpret Super Sonic as being invulnerable. My guess is that it's some pain manip or durability negation.
ElixirBlue
ElixirBlue
My guess is that it's some pain manip or durability negation.

Super Sonic resists. Super Sonic tanked everything Chaos Energy can do because of Invulnerability, supported by Enerjak's Subjective Reality using Chaos Energy, and those abilities you mention have been done by far weaker Chaos Energy users. Dark Gaia is not on Super Sonic's level to bypass those resistances.

Haxes multiples to bypass resistances in Archie with more Chaos Energy and also strengthens resistances.
Agnaa
Agnaa
My list was not exhaustive, and was just two possible guesses.

Instead saying why those guesses don't work, go with the actual answer I gave: It works however you explain it when you interpret Super Sonic as being invulnerable.
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