VS Battles Wiki Forum

I think those cases should just list it as skill. I think that's a fair default assumption. Hopefully you can imagine other times where we do similar things on the site, so we don't have to get in a side-debate about whether an example I come up with is valid or not.

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And they aren't, it's unironically that simple. It has nothing to do with being fair, if it's wrong it's wrong, let's not pretend shit is any different.
Other times? Two wrongs don't make a right, remember when we listed Social Influencing as Mind Manipulation?

I don't think it extending to non-combat-applicable things is an issue, if it hits combat-applicable things anyway. I don't think that justifies a new page.

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This sentence doesn't make sense, and what are you on about? You do know everyone, me included fyi, agreed to just flesh out the weapons page right?

But for the few cases where it is combat applicable but weapon mastery wouldn't apply (spells) I'd want a combat expertise page.

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Few is an understatement, which I'm just going to have to chalk up to you not really knowing many verses that have it apply, like idk maybe you don't play many RPG's or whatever. But it's beyond just a few.

I didn't bold it, I just ctrl+c ctrl+v'd the first few sentences lol.

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doesnt do that for me tbh

I think that's silly. It's nigh-zero work to just set up a redirect from weapon mastery/martial arts to the new page.

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I mean, even if it was a bunch of work, I'd still think it should be done. It could take years, who gives a ****? As long as it's done, and done right and it being beneficial to the hobby, I don't see why wouldn't.

And they aren't, it's unironically that simple. It has nothing to do with being fair, if it's wrong it's wrong, let's not pretend shit is any different.
Other times? Two wrongs don't make a right, remember when we listed Social Influencing as Mind Manipulation?

I don't think it's wrong, I think "They shoot an arrow off someone's head" can reasonably be described as Weapon Mastery until it's elaborated on. Just because something could have an elaborate alternative explanation, doesn't mean we should assume it does by default.

This sentence doesn't make sense

Yeah I couldn't think of a great way to phrase that.

People being able to use their aim for non-combat things isn't an issue if they can use it for combat things.

Few is an understatement, which I'm just going to have to chalk up to you not really knowing many verses that have it apply, like idk maybe you don't play many RPG's or whatever. But it's beyond just a few.

It's based on me having played a great deal of RPGs, and gone through quite a few RPG inspired things that aren't video games, without seeing precision feats near what I've seen in other media. And when it does exist, it's not treated as very spectacular. Someone shooting 300 different human-sized targets in rapid succession would be impressive, but if someone can spawn 300 different magical spears to launch into human-sized targets, it just seems like the magic can handle the nearby spawning without skill needed on the caster's part, which makes it feel a lot less impressive.

It's also based on me having been on the wiki for six years and never having heard murmurs of a thread being made for a page about magical precision. While I have heard endless arguments about characters' skill. It really seems like, even outside of my bubble, for battleboarding as a whole most precision feats involve weapons, not magic projectiles.

doesnt do that for me tbh

superior browser W

I mean, even if it was a bunch of work, I'd still think it should be done. It could take years, who gives a ****? As long as it's done, and done right and it being beneficial to the hobby, I don't see why wouldn't.

Opportunity cost would be the reason.

But hey, it's easy, and we agree on what to do, so whateva.

I don't think it's wrong, I think "They shoot an arrow off someone's head" can reasonably be described as Weapon Mastery until it's elaborated on. Just because something could have an elaborate alternative explanation, doesn't mean we should assume it does by default.

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????????
What? Do you not realize we're talking about the times when it's NOT that? There is no "it could be weapon mastery", it isn't, not the case, not a thing. Many times across media, there is powers and abilities that enable exceptional aim, as the ability itself. Completely devoid of weapon mastery, skill, or intelligence.
Continuing to bring it up as an option ain't it chief, because if it was, we wouldn't even be having this conversation. The subject is obviously for cases where it isn't skill/mastery.

Yeah I couldn't think of a great way to phrase that. People being able to use their aim for non-combat things isn't an issue if they can use it for combat things.

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Ok? If it doesn't involve a weapon or an improvised one, it ain't weapon mastery. If it doesn't involve actually being a master of the weapon, it ain't weapon mastery, if it's not done through intellect but rather a skill (like an RPG or tabletop skill, not CQC type skill) or some random power, it ain't a skill feat.
I can not stress enough that many verses just treat this as some superpower, like "it's just a thing" is unironically true in some cases.

It's based on me having played a great deal of RPGs, and gone through quite a few RPG inspired things that aren't video games, without seeing precision feats near what I've seen in other media.

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Ok then you should be well aware of how widespread it is in that medium alone, and hell, don't even get me started on the travesty that is the ten fucktillion isekais.

And when it does exist, it's not treated as very spectacular.

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Doesn't need to be, hell going back to social influencing, that is the most fake ass power we have, it's LITERALLY "talk good". We don't need something to be remarkable, we just need it to exist. Our job is to index shit, it doesn't need to be exceptional otherwise why list half the shit we do?

Someone shooting 300 different human-sized targets in rapid succession would be impressive, but if someone can spawn 300 different magical spears to launch into human-sized targets, it just seems like the magic can handle the nearby spawning without skill needed on the caster's part, which makes it feel a lot less impressive.

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Unironically don't know what you're going on about, this isn't even relevant to the conversation, it's just you making a false equivalence based on what sounds like some Fate-esque ability that just has swords spawn on someone.

It's also based on me having been on the wiki for six years and never having heard murmurs of a thread being made for a page about magical precision. While I have heard endless arguments about characters' skill.

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Ok? This, too, isn't relevant at all. Just because you didn't hear about it, doesn't mean there hasn't been some contention, clearly, given here we are. Hell, this ain't even the worst of it.
And yes, skill threads do be a thing, as a fan of Metal Gear I sometimes even dabble in that shit too (in which case for them it IS weapon mastery and skill).

It really seems like, even outside of my bubble, for battleboarding as a whole most precision feats involve weapons, not magic projectiles.

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And? Most AP feats involve punching shit, doesn't mean AP feats with explosions don't exist.
This is a non-argument, you're basically just saying "Because sometimes it's this, it can't be that". Yeah, most of the time it is with weapons, but sometimes ain't all the time, and given how common hitting shit happens to be, that "sometimes" ends up adding up to a notable amount.


Based on your arguments here, all I'm getting is that because 90% of the time it's other shit, we should ignore the 10% of the time it ain't that. Which I could understand if this was something very niche with little applicable, to begin with, but "hit good" ain't exactly uncommon. And I'm definitely not ok with listing shit as something it isn't, just doesn't make sense when we're meant to index stuff as accurately as possible. Like if it ain't a duck, don't call it a duck type thing.
Though I find it odd we're even having this talk given everyone already agreed on a compromise

Putting this at the top since it's important, and it somehow happened when talking about this to other people off-site.

Based on your arguments here, all I'm getting is that because 90% of the time it's other shit, we should ignore the 10% of the time it ain't that.

Doesn't need to be, hell going back to social influencing, that is the most fake ass power we have, it's LITERALLY "talk good". We don't need something to be remarkable, we just need it to exist. Our job is to index shit, it doesn't need to be exceptional otherwise why list half the shit we do?

And? Most AP feats involve punching shit, doesn't mean AP feats with explosions don't exist.

Homie, I'm not saying to do nothing . I've agreed over and over with the compromise we discussed. I'm just justifying why I said "few", since you took issue with that,

What? Do you not realize we're talking about the times when it's NOT that? There is no "it could be weapon mastery", it isn't, not the case, not a thing. Many times across media, there is powers and abilities that enable exceptional aim, as the ability itself. Completely devoid of weapon mastery, skill, or intelligence.

"Having the ability to be skilled isn't the same as being skilled" just doesn't make sense as a point to me. Some characters have the ability to run fast, we still put that in their speed section without giving it a power (other than the pointless "superhuman physical characteristics" one, or stat amp if it's a temporary boost).

And hell, even if it is an actual ability that grants them skill, I think it's fair to lump that in with weapon mastery, since it's an ability that grants them mastery over weapons.

Ok? This, too, isn't relevant at all. Just because you didn't hear about it, doesn't mean there hasn't been some contention, clearly, given here we are. Hell, this ain't even the worst of it.

My bad for not being clear, I guess? I meant that there's never been discussion of a page of this before now. Which indicates that it doesn't come up often.

Homie, I'm not saying to do nothing . I've agreed over and over with the compromise we discussed. I'm just justifying why I said "few", since you took issue with that,

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I wouldn't call probably 100+ profiles a few tho.

"Having the ability to be skilled isn't the same as being skilled" just doesn't make sense as a point to me. Some characters have the ability to run fast, we still put that in their speed section without giving it a power (other than the pointless "superhuman physical characteristics" one, or stat amp if it's a temporary boost).

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This is just strawmanning.
Yeah, it isn't. Im not sure what's so hard to understand here? It isn't weapon mastery, it isn't intelligence, sometimes it's a straight-up superpower. In the same way Superman can fly without wings, sometimes it just be like it do.
You're conflating the fact that skilled people can do it to mean that everyone who does it has to be skilled. Grade A association fallacy there.

Also you just contradicted yourself, "we don't list run fast EXCEPT when we do", in which case, yeah, we do it. It might be minor, but we do it all the same, as we should, we index stuff, it doesn't need to be exceptional, it just needs to exist.
And if running fast is an ability, aka The Flash or something, you're goddamn right we have whole pages for shit like that.

nd hell, even if it is an actual ability that grants them skill, I think it's fair to lump that in with weapon mastery, since it's an ability that grants them mastery over weapons.

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Agnaa, what part of weapons not being involved, is hard to understand? I must've said this what, 12 times now? Why do you keep acting like we're talking about weapons? **** weapons completely, they're not relevant. Magic, hair, laserbeams, shockwaves, elemental shit, random esoteric hax, time itself, whatever, it can be anything. What they use to do it isn't the point, it's how or why they can do it that is, the fact that I can think of shit completely devoid of a weapon or even an improvised one, and even mentioned some, just proves my point further. Hell, sometimes this doesn't even extend to weapons either, like various RPG hit-rate moves.

And again, no, that's just pretending it's something it isn't. What if they don't get good at using the weapon? You could be able to hit with extreme precision but still not know how to use the weapon that well or use it for anything beyond hitting something even in such cases. I can not stress enough, your alternatives aren't alternatives, they're just spreading misinform or pretending something is something else.

My bad for not being clear, I guess? I meant that there's never been discussion of a page of this before now. Which indicates that it doesn't come up often.

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Doesn't need to come up often. You've been here for 6 years right? Going back to social influencing again because goddamn that's a power we have. If I'm correct, which I'm pretty sure I am, all Social feats used to be listed as Mind Manipulation, but obviously that's not correct is it? Like there's overlap but they definitely aren't the same thing, and then someone, idk, was like "nah that shit is dumb, here's THIS that covers mind hax feats that aren't actually mindhax at all". Same thing here, while weapon masters tend to be able to hit good, not all hit good are weapon masters, in the same way mind manipulators can manipulate someone's mind, but not all feats involving changing someone's mind involve mindhax. Or whatever, I'm sure you get the point I'm trying to make, sometimes there's characters that just have the ability of good aim and hit without actually being skilled or anything, quite a few verses just treat it as it's own power, and even more fucky is some verses treat it as it's own thing while also having luck/probability/etc hax as this OTHER thing.

I can't agree with your stance, I kinda get where you're coming from, but the arguments seem way to simplified or hyperfocused on overlap.

Btw, Genius Intelligence is literally an ability page we have.

I'll only respond to the parts that don't seem to be going in circles. This includes the "what about non-weapons" stuff because I have already explicitly said I agree with that over and over again.

This is just strawmanning.

It's not strawmanning, you went on to literally say that later in your post with "sometimes there's characters that just have the ability of good aim and hit without actually being skilled or anything". You're saying that that skill with a weapon isn't skill with a weapon.

What if they don't get good at using the weapon? You could be able to hit with extreme precision but still not know how to use the weapon that well or use it for anything beyond hitting something even in such cases.

They don't need to be better at every aspect of the weapon. Characters with Weapon Mastery don't need to demonstrate the ability to clean their weapons better than the average person. And hitting stuff with extreme precision is an aspect of using weapons, so mastery at it would be weapon mastery.

Btw, Genius Intelligence is literally an ability page we have.

Yeah I think that's dumb. It seems like we've collectively reached an agreement to not push those sorts of abilities further, though. Can't tell whether that's because of reaching a compromise there, or due to grandfathering them in.

I'll only respond to the parts that don't seem to be going in circles. This includes the "what about non-weapons" stuff because I have already explicitly said I agree with that over and over again.

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Ok cool. Then I expect no more of that weapon hyperfocusing as that doesn't actually tackle the thing I'm debating about not withstanding this whole convo is pointless given a compromise had been reached, I'm not even sure why you're doing this.

It's not strawmanning, you went on to literally say that later in your post with "sometimes there's characters that just have the ability of good aim and hit without actually being skilled or anything". You're saying that that skill with a weapon isn't skill with a weapon.

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Obviously, your last sentence was a lie because here you are at it again.
Yes Agnaa. Imagine superpowers being a superpower?
Yes, if it isn't done through skill, it isn't skill, if not intelligence, it isn't intelligence. I have nothing left to say on this subject, I stand by the fact this is strawmanning, and you simply not coming to terms with the fact, sometimes, just maybe, shit doesn't need to be realistic in this hobby.

They don't need to be better at every aspect of the weapon. Characters with Weapon Mastery don't need to demonstrate the ability to clean their weapons better than the average person.

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Yes they do. It's an actual requirement. They NEED to be masters with it, otherwise, they don't get it, don't believe me? Look up Arthur Fleck Joker, look at history, look at the thread where his weapon proficiency with a gun got removed because he wasn't an actual expert with the gun and was just some average dude.

And hitting stuff with extreme precision is an aspect of using weapons, so mastery at it would be weapon mastery.

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Bruh, why do you keep going back to that? You're to caught up on the what not the why.
I don't know what to tell you here, there's cases across fiction (Because mind you, this IS fiction) where such a feat has absolutely nothing to do with "skill", pretending it's something that isn't and slapping a band-aid on it ain't it lad.

And quite frankly, I actually like to index shit as it is, not just what it has some overlap with.
This is also a blatant fallacious argument, just because weapon masters can hit things with a weapon, doesn't mean all who hit things with a weapon are weapon masters. As I said before, I can name numerous examples that are explicitly not luck/probability, that involve inducing exceptional aim, by things without any semblance of high intellect like 40+ pokemon for example

And you keep hyperfocusing this, no offense, but there is no "weapons and non-weapons" category here, you're adding an arbitrary distinction to treat it as something that it isn't, if you agree with non-weapon cases, then by that same logic the cases with weapons, as long as it isn't done via intellect/skill, would be the exact same.

Yeah I think that's dumb. It seems like we've collectively reached an agreement to not push those sorts of abilities further, though. Can't tell whether that's because of reaching a compromise there, or due to grandfathering them in.

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Why not? It's a thing, it should be indexed. Honestly I'm baffled at how many "compromises" we have as it is, while simultaneously having shit like temp manip, and also ice and fire manip.
You made a prime example earlier actually, by saying "just treat it as law/fate/probability/luck", to be blunt, that's actually my main issue here. Treating things as something they aren't, that goes against everything we're meant to do.

Yes Agnaa. Imagine superpowers being a superpower?
Yes, if it isn't done through skill, it isn't skill, if not intelligence, it isn't intelligence. I have nothing left to say on this subject, I stand by the fact this is strawmanning, and you simply not coming to terms with the fact, sometimes, just maybe, shit doesn't need to be realistic in this hobby.

Bruh, why do you keep going back to that? You're to caught up on the what not the why.
I don't know what to tell you here, there's cases across fiction (Because mind you, this IS fiction) where such a feat has absolutely nothing to do with "skill", pretending it's something that isn't and slapping a band-aid on it ain't it lad.

If a superpower makes you a supergenius, you're still a supergenius.

Being a superpower doesn't make it not skill, unless that superpower gives you good aim through some other means (like enhanced senses, homing attacks, probability manip, etc.) Neither you nor anyone else has shown me an example that actually lies outside of this, that isn't due to them having good aim with magical projectiles and the like (which I'd still consider skill).

Yes they do. It's an actual requirement. They NEED to be masters with it, otherwise, they don't get it, don't believe me? Look up Arthur Fleck Joker, look at history, look at the thread where his weapon proficiency with a gun got removed because he wasn't an actual expert with the gun and was just some average dude.

They need to be proficient, but they do not need to demonstrate things like being able to clean guns well. If that was a requirement, then >90% of our pages with weapon mastery would need to have them removed. Just being able to aim well is sufficient to get it.

And you keep hyperfocusing this, no offense, but there is no "weapons and non-weapons" category here, you're adding an arbitrary distinction to treat it as something that it isn't, if you agree with non-weapon cases, then by that same logic the cases with weapons, as long as it isn't done via intellect/skill, would be the exact same.

I agree with non-weapon cases because there's no weapon involved. Not because it's done by something that isn't skill.

You made a prime example earlier actually, by saying "just treat it as law/fate/probability/luck", to be blunt, that's actually my main issue here. Treating things as something they aren't, that goes against everything we're meant to do.

My issue's that I don't think I am treating them as something they aren't. Y'all aren't giving me something that wouldn't be covered by hax or skill.

Maybe you just don't include "aim" in "skill", but I then wonder how the hell you think someone can be skilled with a gun if not by aim. All that's left aside from that is really minor shit, like efficiently reloading, being able to clean/dissassemble it, which doesn't apply to the vast majority of gun users people call skillful.

If a superpower makes you a supergenius, you're still a supergenius.

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Except when it doesn't?

Being a superpower doesn't make it not skill, unless that superpower gives you good aim through some other means (like enhanced senses, homing attacks, probability manip, etc.)

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No, but it being a superpower does mean your argument of "skill" doesn't actually mean anything because it can be whatever it wants to be.
Also, again, except when it isn't?

Neither you nor anyone else has shown me an example that actually lies outside of this, that isn't due to them having good aim with magical projectiles and the like (which I'd still consider skill).

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Pokemon and even some FF (which even has its own unique luck stat separate). There, have fun.

They need to be proficient, but they do not need to demonstrate things like being able to clean guns well. If that was a requirement, then >90% of our pages with weapon mastery would need to have them removed. Just being able to aim well is sufficient to get it.

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Cool, but what if they aren't? What if it's not the fact they're good with the weapon that enables them to hit shit?
Also, I know how to shoot a gun and have decent aim murica **** yeah but I'm sure as hell not an expert so that's a bit of an issure there.

And hey, if 90% of the pages are wrong, why advocate for even more?

I agree with non-weapon cases because there's no weapon involved. Not because it's done by something that isn't skill.

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Agnaa, I can not stress this enough but, if you can't go a post without strawmanning, stop posting.
"There's lot of cases across fiction where moves, special abilities, and more can lead to or induce a high hit-rate or aiming proficiency, and sometimes these things are even disconnected from separate luck/probability and the like skills and attributes that can even exist in that very same setting".
And then you reply again "it's just skill if a weapon is involved".

If a MAGIC ability says "you have very good aim with everything every, and have a 95% hit rate", and it isn't probability manip, it isn't law manip, sure as hell ain't fate manip, it doesn't involve homing, and it's not just funny gun, and the character in question is as smart as a dog, and doesn't even comprehend how they do so, just that they can and it's an ability in and of itself that enables it.

Listing that as weapon mastery or skill is just false tbh.

My issue's that I don't think I am treating them as something they aren't. Y'all aren't giving me something that wouldn't be covered by hax or skill.

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You've been given some, and you either simply don't agree, which is on you, are deadset on it being skill even when it isn't, or you're just getting knowledge or pop-culture checked and don't actually know the examples given, which fair, can't expect everyone to know funny meme item from D6 or something, but who oh well.

But I will say, I was trying to be nice about but you didn't exactly get the hint. We're done here Agnaa, a compromise was reached long before you ever posted in that thread, the only reason why I even replied back to you was because I was asked to, why you're going on about this still is beyond me.
We agreed to flesh out the weapons page for a catch-all section, which, btw, is being done as we speak, so that's simply what we'll do, that should not only appease you and your insistence it's just that but also give an alternative to the lads who have stuff like this that isn't drawn from merely being skilled or have high intellect.
Nothing against yu, you have been chill here, I just see no reason why we're even doing this given we obviously disagree, nothing will come from this, and the conclusion had been reached and is being worked on as we speak.

Maybe you just don't include "aim" in "skill", but I then wonder how the hell you think someone can be skilled with a gun if not by aim.

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Jesus... You can have good aim via skill, or you can not. It's that simple, it's fiction, it doesn't need to make perfect sense, sometimes it just be.

All that's left aside from that is really minor shit, like efficiently reloading, being able to clean/dissassemble it, which doesn't apply to the vast majority of gun users people call skillful.

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Even just for weapons this could be shit like swords, batons, clackers, wires, etc, this is what I mean, you're so focused on a specific thing that you're missing the forest not for the trees, but for a tree. Singular. Plus, as said before, you said you agreed with "non-weapon examples", but I'm not making that distinction here, my argument isn't based on what they use, but how they do it, the moment you start dividing things into weapons and non-weapons is when the conversation falls apart because we aren't discussing the same thing anymore.
And not at all, guns can be used in things like CQC as well as just the tip of the iceberg lad.

We're done here Agnaa

I just see no reason why we're even doing this given we obviously disagree, nothing will come from this, and the conclusion had been reached and is being worked on as we speak.

I would've liked to learn more about those examples, but if you don't wanna continue, I won't.