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Ayanokouji's Mini Upgrade

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XxZetsuxX

XxZetsuxX

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This CRT aims to give 2 abilities for Ayanokouji with them being the following;

Body Control and Resistence to Fear Manipulation.

Reasoning;

Body Control - For starters it's outright impossible to stay with a steady heart beat or pulse mid-fight which is something Ayanokouji did.

It's said here that fight or flight responses are as follows;
  • Heart rate goes up
  • Blood pressure increases
  • Breathing gets faster and deeper
  • More blood goes to muscles
  • Strength and reaction speed increase
  • Faster reactions, high alertness
  • Less calm thinking, more instinct
  • Pupils dilate (better vision)
  • Awareness of surroundings increases
  • Blood sugar rises (quick energy boost)
  • Digestion slows
  • “Non-essential” systems pause
Which takes us to resistence to Fear Manipulation;

Fear activates all of the aforemented effects and Ayanokouji is able to supress them all with his body control

So in summary, Ayanokouji is able to supress his bodily functions and emotional responses due to Fear and fight or flight being heavily connected with each other

My proposition for the justification;

"Ayanokouji is able to supress his bodily functions and emotional responses consciously like fight or flight"
 
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I also firmly believe it does not matter if it's supernatural or not

Reasoning;

Fear manipulation activates what Social influencing fear activates, the different between the two is that one is causeless and the other is with cause

It's also worth mentioning that supernatural fear doesn't activate something that the human body doesn't have
 
I agree.
Though, I think resistance to fear manipulation should be changed to something more specific like: Resistance to Fear Inducement

Since fear manipulation includes abilities such as nightmare manipulation and hallucinations.
 
What’s being shown here is better explained as high-level mental discipline rather than a body control. Remaining calm in combat isn’t impossible and is something seen in trained soldiers and martial artists, so it doesn’t necessarily qualify as body control. Resistance to fear should be fine. So, i disagree with Body control.
 
TWILIGHT-OP said:
Resistance to fear should be fine.
Click to expand...
Son.
XxZetsuxX said:
This CRT aims to give 2 abilities for Ayanokouji with them being the following;

Body Control and Resistence to Fear Manipulation.

Reasoning;

Body Control - For starters it's outright impossible to stay with a steady heart beat or pulse mid-fight which is something Ayanokouji did.

It's said here that fight or flight responses are as follows;
  • Heart rate goes up
  • Blood pressure increases
  • Breathing gets faster and deeper
  • More blood goes to muscles
  • Strength and reaction speed increase
  • Faster reactions, high alertness
  • Less calm thinking, more instinct
  • Pupils dilate (better vision)
  • Awareness of surroundings increases
  • Blood sugar rises (quick energy boost)
  • Digestion slows
  • “Non-essential” systems pause
Which takes us to resistence to Fear Manipulation;

Fear activates all of the aforemented effects and Ayanokouji is able to supress them all with his body control

So in summary, Ayanokouji is able to supress his bodily functions and emotional responses due to Fear and fight or flight being heavily connected with each other

My proposition for the justification;

"Ayanokouji is able to supress his bodily functions and emotional responses consciously like fight or flight"
Click to expand...
Just because you stop all of the attributes from natural fear does not lead to the conclusion that therefore you are resistant to supernatural fear.
 
Vzearr said:
Son.
Click to expand...
I mean he doesn't really feel fear or pressure, (I've only watched 2 seasons). If there’s more context later on, feel free to bring it up, I’m open to changing my take since this isn’t a final judgment.
 
TWILIGHT-OP said:
I mean he doesn't really feel fear or pressure, (I've only watched 2 seasons). If there’s more context later on, feel free to bring it up, I’m open to changing my take since this isn’t a final judgment.
Click to expand...
If you don't feel fear from natural fear that doesn't necesitate that you dont feel fear from all types of fear.
 
Vzearr said:
If you don't feel fear from natural fear that doesn't necesitate that you dont feel fear from all types of fear.
Click to expand...
Yes Ik, that's why it can qualify for resistance to fear inducement.
 
TWILIGHT-OP said:
What’s being shown here is better explained as high-level mental discipline rather than a body control. Remaining calm in combat isn’t impossible and is something seen in trained soldiers and martial artists, so it doesn’t necessarily qualify as body control. Resistance to fear should be fine. So, i disagree with Body control.
Click to expand...
Same as Twilight.
 
I honestly thought body control was more clear cut than fear inducement?

Lol
 
TWILIGHT-OP said:
What’s being shown here is better explained as high-level mental discipline rather than a body control. Remaining calm in combat isn’t impossible and is something seen in trained soldiers and martial artists, so it doesn’t necessarily qualify as body control. Resistance to fear should be fine. So, i disagree with Body control.
Click to expand...
According to google, it's not possible to fully prevent fight or flight instincts to kick in even with high level of discipline

It says it activates without conscious thought, it's automatic and controls involuntary things like heart rate and breathing,
 
This will be my last appeal as i don't know what else i could say if the answer is still no xd
 
XxZetsuxX said:
For starters it's outright impossible to stay with a steady heart beat or pulse mid-fight
Click to expand...
TWILIGHT-OP said:
Remaining calm in combat isn’t impossible and is something seen in trained soldiers and martial artists, so it doesn’t necessarily qualify as body control.
Click to expand...
Reiner04 said:
Same as Twilight.
Click to expand...
This is objectively different from remaining calm. It is biologically impossible to maintain a completely steady heart rate, even at rest. The fact that this was done in an extreme situation of a 6v1 fight is even more impressive. The argument that he could accomplish this by being calm is completely impossible. Trained soldiers or even Olympic athletes can't do this.

An Overview of Heart Rate Variability Metrics and Norms - PMC

Healthy biological systems exhibit complex patterns of variability that can be described by mathematical chaos. Heart rate variability (HRV) consists of changes in the time intervals between consecutive heartbeats called interbeat intervals (IBIs). ...
pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

TWILIGHT-OP said:
I mean he doesn't really feel fear or pressure, (I've only watched 2 seasons). If there’s more context later on, feel free to bring it up, I’m open to changing my take since this isn’t a final judgment.
Click to expand...
The argument that Ayanokouji doesn't have emotions or doesn't feel fear/pressure is incorrect. We learn in Volume 0 that his emotionless persona is a fake act he puts on to convince people in the WR that he is defective/has no emotions. Volume 0 covers context well beyond where the anime is currently so it wouldn't have appeared in the first 2 seasons. The anime also just generally does a poor job adapting his personality compared to the LN.

 
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165DD860B92A4B1C683662D86A5BC9458CEC642C
 
XxZetsuxX said:
Body Control - For starters it's outright impossible to stay with a steady heart beat or pulse mid-fight which is something Ayanokouji did.
Click to expand...

As for this, there is biofeedback, which allows certain functions such as the heart beat to be controlled (to a certain extent) by one’s own will. I am not familiar with the standards of this hax, but it seems to require capabilities beyond the normal human capacity.

As for fear induction, that should be fine. The method of resistance shouldn’t matter here.
 
TheHuntsman1001 said:
This is objectively different from remaining calm. It is biologically impossible to maintain a completely steady heart rate, even at rest. The fact that this was done in an extreme situation of a 6v1 fight is even more impressive. The argument that he could accomplish this by being calm is completely impossible. Trained soldiers or even Olympic athletes can't do this.

An Overview of Heart Rate Variability Metrics and Norms - PMC

Healthy biological systems exhibit complex patterns of variability that can be described by mathematical chaos. Heart rate variability (HRV) consists of changes in the time intervals between consecutive heartbeats called interbeat intervals (IBIs). ...
pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov


The argument that Ayanokouji doesn't have emotions or doesn't feel fear/pressure is incorrect. We learn in Volume 0 that his emotionless persona is a fake act he puts on to convince people in the WR that he is defective/has no emotions. Volume 0 covers context well beyond where the anime is currently so it wouldn't have appeared in the first 2 seasons. The anime also just generally does a poor job adapting his personality compared to the LN.

Click to expand...

Body control Should be fine then i suppose. If he has confirmed emotions then fear manp can go.
 
I agree with Body Control. Might be important to add but heart rate as a thing is extremely variable, for e.g., even a posture change from resting to standing up can cause the heart rate to rise by 10 to 15 bpm. Plus, Kiyotaka would have to perform constant movement changes to dodge, attack and in situations, even jump to heights to attack the fighters.

Blood circulation is heavily affected by sudden changes in posture, due to the alignment of gravity and the blood flow vectors, and also due to the contraction of muscles putting pressure along the surfaces of certain arteries in certain positions. Due to this, the body constantly experiences changes in blood pressure, to regulate which, it uses Baroreceptor Reflex, a property of the body to regulate the blood pressure mainly using autonomic system feedback by sensing the pressure changes through baroreceptors present in certain parts of the body (aortic arch and carotid sinuses). Sudden posture changes can completely alter the blood pressure, to regulate which, the body alters the heart rate.

More so, Kiyotaka is fighting, so he would also constantly be using his skeletal muscles, due to which, they will constantly be needing oxygen, so the body would try to compensate it with further oxygen supply too, for which, it would try to increase blood flow to the muscles.

Even if we were to say that Kiyotaka's stamina allows his muscles to not be deprived of oxygen even when there should normally be fatigue, or his training and mental fortitude doesn't even recognize this situation as a fight-or-flight emergency situation for it to release catecholamines (adrenaline and noradrenaline), the fact that it becomes extremely difficult to maintain a constant heart rate even if these were the cases makes it more qualifiable for the ability.


About the resistance to Fear Manipulation,
Vzearr said:
Just because you stop all of the attributes from natural fear does not lead to the conclusion that therefore you are resistant to supernatural fear.
Click to expand...
How do we even differentiate between normal fear and supernatural fear? Does the resistance need to be against the causative effects of fear in general or the conclusive effects of fear in general to be sufficient to resist both?
 
For fear manipulation, i will say the arguments again;

Fear manipulation activates all of these traits;
  • Heart rate goes up
  • Blood pressure increases
  • Breathing gets faster and deeper
  • More blood goes to muscles
  • Strength and reaction speed increase
  • Faster reactions, high alertness
  • Less calm thinking, more instinct
  • Pupils dilate (better vision)
  • Awareness of surroundings increases
  • Blood sugar rises (quick energy boost)
  • Digestion slows
  • “Non-essential” systems pause
Something which Ayanokouji can supress at will with his body control, supernatural fear or not

The difference between supernatural fear and natural is that supernatural doesn't require a cause whereas natural does
 
I fully agree with adding both Body Control and Resistance to Fear Manipulation.

Regarding the counter-argument that 'resisting natural fear doesn't equate to resisting supernatural fear', I think we need to look at our own VSBW page for Fear Manipulation.

1. The Willpower Limitation: According to the Fear Manipulation page's Limitations section:

"Fear Manipulation can occasionally be depicted as a power which can be overcome with bravery, willpower and courage."

Ayanokouji doesn't just have normal bravery; his White Room training gave him a level of willpower so extreme that he can manually override his autonomic nervous system. If sheer willpower is an accepted counter to Fear Manipulation on this site, Ayanokouji's absolute psychological fortitude easily qualifies.

2. The Biological Mechanism of Supernatural Fear: The page also divides Fear Manipulation into subtypes like Biochemical and Neurological. Even if the source of the fear is supernatural, the effect it has on the target is biological (increased heart rate, adrenaline release, fight-or-flight response).Since we already established (via the Baroreceptor Reflex and 6v1 fight feats) that Ayanokouji possesses superhuman Body Control to suppress these exact biological reactions, supernatural fear would have no physical way to manifest in his body. You can't induce panic in a body that consciously refuses to pump adrenaline or raise its heart rate.

Assuming supernatural fear bypasses biological and neurological body control purely because it has the word 'supernatural' attached to it borders on a No Limits Fallacy (NLF)

That's all I have to say
 
XxZetsuxX said:
Reiner, i am sorry for the insisting, but could you please clarify, if this reasoning works for both body control and resistence to fear manipulation?
Click to expand...
I am reluctant on fear manp res given V0 statemen. Body control works.
 
Reiner04 said:
I am reluctant on fear manp res given V0 statemen. Body control works.
Click to expand...
Uh, the thing i am confused is that we have 2 staff votes

1 saying body control works and the other saying resistence to fear manipulation works, how do i proceed from here 😭
 
Reiner04 said:
I am reluctant on fear manp res given V0 statemen. Body control works.
Click to expand...
Reiner04 said:
Thats the trick we staffs use to tormant bluenames
Click to expand...
On a serious note lol, I can give some more context/understanding about Ayanokouji's emotions related to Fear Resistance.

Basically his resistance to fear inducement isn't tied to him being emotionless or not feeling emotions like fear. The idea that he is emotionless is a common misconception the anime popularized which is why I made the point earlier in the thread that he isn't actually emotionless. What he does is control his emotional/biological responses to appear emotionless, which allows him to convince his father and other WR scientists that he is a defective product.

His resistance to fear comes from his ability to literally control his body's response to things that would otherwise cause fear. Basically fear is a biological process that the body goes through as a response to being stimulated e.g. seeing something frightening. Those responses are things Koji can directly control to suppress what would otherwise be a normal fear response.

For some further V0 context, aside from the heart control, we also see Ayanokouji control his responses on constant medical tests performed by the WR scientists. This is relevant because he managed to convince those same scientists that he had no emotional responses to anything. Blood and urine tests would measure things like hormone levels e.g. dopamine or serotonin, adrenaline or Norepinephrine levels, cortisol levels and more. All of which would normally show results contrary to the idea that he doesn't posses emotions. So in order to fool the WR scientists and his father he needs to fool the tests too. This is why his body control is so linked to his resistance to fear.



So we see Ayanokouji directly control the kinds of biological responses which are tied to emotions like fear. As such he can directly control his emotional responses via his body control to feel or not to feel any emotion he wants. Which would include his ability to suppress the biological processes leading to the fear response.

As for whether this should apply to supernatural fear, Violet explained this very well:
Idc.violet said:
Regarding the counter-argument that 'resisting natural fear doesn't equate to resisting supernatural fear', I think we need to look at our own VSBW page for Fear Manipulation.

1. The Willpower Limitation: According to the Fear Manipulation page's Limitations section:

"Fear Manipulation can occasionally be depicted as a power which can be overcome with bravery, willpower and courage."

Ayanokouji doesn't just have normal bravery; his White Room training gave him a level of willpower so extreme that he can manually override his autonomic nervous system. If sheer willpower is an accepted counter to Fear Manipulation on this site, Ayanokouji's absolute psychological fortitude easily qualifies.

2. The Biological Mechanism of Supernatural Fear: The page also divides Fear Manipulation into subtypes like Biochemical and Neurological. Even if the source of the fear is supernatural, the effect it has on the target is biological (increased heart rate, adrenaline release, fight-or-flight response).Since we already established (via the Baroreceptor Reflex and 6v1 fight feats) that Ayanokouji possesses superhuman Body Control to suppress these exact biological reactions, supernatural fear would have no physical way to manifest in his body. You can't induce panic in a body that consciously refuses to pump adrenaline or raise its heart rate.

Assuming supernatural fear bypasses biological and neurological body control purely because it has the word 'supernatural' attached to it borders on a No Limits Fallacy (NLF)
Click to expand...
 
disagree with body control but fear resistances seems fine
 
well then, i think this has been concluded

I have added the changes, this can be closed, thank you all for the eval 🤗
 
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