Blazblue AP Revisions : No more lowballing

[Strife304]

@Strife304 what does believing she works with Izanami have to do with anything?

@Theglassman12 I literally explain why this belief is relevant right after i raise it:

Even if Nine wasn't calling the fragments "the Azure" she is still thought to be working with Izanami, this is the impression Hakumen arrives at in his Act 1. Which would then mean, by narrative context, she is in fact alluding to the fragments that Izanami is handing out, because her trial for the chosen's desires lead to Izanami's test of earning the azure. Again, she shows us the resulting wishes from those fragments, which would then mean she's directly referring to the "azure fragment" at the conclusion of every Act 2.

And this is directly addressing and debunking your misconception of Nine speaking on the True Azure as opposed to the piece of it Izanami hands out:

Nine doesn't refer to the fragments as the azure, she references the azure itself doing this, And it's shown the fragments can barely even sustain one world on its own. Yes it does disprove what you're arguing here, because nothing in the entire context of the arcade modes do they ever refer to the azure's fragments as being capable of doing this, it's shown the exact opposite where they're barely able to sustain a world for long. Again if you're going to just ignore the main issue with your upgrade, then I'm sorry to say but this isn't going anywhere.

You've constantly claimed that nothing in the entirety of the Arcade modes gives credence to the azure fragments being able to accomplish these feats, yet several times have been shown that they do.

Next I'll address the latter half of that first part.

And again, nothing about the fragments mention they create ALL the possibilities, only whatever the chosen has.

Where did I say that the fragments create "all the possibilities", all the possibilities of what? The fragments create possibilities based around the chosen's desire, yes, that's what I said. So if you're agreeing with me on that then I'll take that as a concession. Don't put words in my mouth.

Did you read the scans at all or are you just trolling me right now? She literally says she wants complete death on the world. She even says that in the story mode. Saying she wants more worlds again flies in the face of her entire goal.

If I'm a troll then you're blind, because in the exact scans I gave you she states that she wants to end all possibilities without hope of restarting the cycle. In fact, you're literally agreeing with my point!

What I and Comic have been saying is that these wishes are just more possibilities (worlds reflective of their cosmology) now layered into the Embryo. This does NOT fly in the face of Izanami's goal, it actually gives more severity to this total end that she's describing.

What part of the cauldrons has anything to do with this upgrade?

Now I know you're not reading. Refer to the OP, it is the exact part I cited at the end of my last reply, to answer that first question.

Did anyone go into the cauldrons that were in the azure fragments or dreams at all? Because none of that ever happened in the arcade mode, let alone story mode. Idk how the hell you're claiming the boundary scales to the azure fragments when none of the scans back that up.

I've already given you the definition of the Boundary, the one where it states that it is a complex space that connects all dimensions, you agree with that scan, yes? Well, if you find the in-game library's description of the Boundary to be credible, these wishes, whether you think they're 2-A or not, is by definition connected to the boundary. Which means they also have cauldrons, because that's how the world of Blazblue is setup with all the NOL branches, hierarchical cities, and their structures.

I believe occam's razor is appropriately applied here. It's highly improbably that these faithful recreations wouldnt have Cauldrons, and you'd have to do some off the wall thinking to deny that the boundary is connected as a result. Its simpler to assume each wish is a possibility connected to the boundary, especially with all the evidence.

Now, I find this extraordinarily funny especially after you just accused me of not reading and trolling. It is extremely clear now that you are unaware of the fact that Purgatorium, the stage for every Act 1 finale, is a Phantom Field located in the Boundary.

Nine's Workshop that they needed to reach in the story is also in the Boundary, oh and what do you know.. they need a cauldron to get there!

 

[Strife304]

posted my reply on accident trying to revise it, but oh well

 

[Theglassman12]

Yes there is proof, Terumi calling out her bullshit, and her not denying it is proof enough. Otherwise she would've corrected him.

You and Comic keep using this scan to justify the azure fragments having all the possibilities ever, despite that not being the case, and at best only makes one possibility into a world with any of the chosens.

Making more worlds then completely destroying them quite literally is what her idea of Doomsday is... in fact, she even states this in the beginning of Central Fiction when speaking to Noel and Rachel.

This does fly in the face of Izanami's goal because she never wanted to help anyone but herself. Doomsday only just erases everything, her making more worlds makes no sense with her goals. If you're going to tell me she's genuinely wanting to make more worlds and not want to kill everyone despite how blatant it is then you're being delusional right now.

Them being connected to the boundary means nothing, like at all. Unless they have feats of observing the boundary, which the azure fragments do not have, this is a useless point to make. Making cauldrons in of itself is not a Low 1-C feat, you just made a portal, that's all you did. That's not a physical feat at all and is heavily reliant on assumptions at this point. Yeah, a Phantom Field, a dimension that's not Low 1-C in structure whatsoever, at best is a Low 2-C feat if you wanna push for it. This doesn't remotely help your Low 1-C buffs at all when Phantom Fields are just a world, and that's it. Oh yeah, Nine's workshop, an entire dimension inside the boundary that was made by Nine to avoid intervention so she can overthrow amaterasu, great job ignoring context yet again as to why her workshop is in the boundary in the first place.

 

[Comicgyal]

I feel as though some points have been lost, so I’ll be making an attempt to redirect us. I’ll be going over all the main points, and my arguments to what you’ve provided to them again. But in one large post, so nothing can be skipped over.

What is the “True Azure”?

I won’t go into strenuous detail, but I will give some accounts from character statements.

The Azure is an item that weaves all fates together, encompassing all of the infinite possibilities in the verse. The azure is the foundation of their entire world, and without it their world wouldn’t exist. The “True Azure” is locked behind the gates, located in the depths of their boundary. In Cf it is guarded by Es, the Azure brought her there due to her contact with the Azure in her own verse. Which is why Es recognizes herself as “One with the possibility of the Azure.” Despite their verses having no prior connection, the azure is the great unifier.

Azure “Fragments” in previous games.

In many games before Cf, there are many characters who contain fragments of the Azure, even characters who have seen the full thing.

For example, Nu comes from the Azure, and because of this she holds a piece of the azure inside her.

Arakune as well made it to the azure, and has a piece of the azure inside him.

Characters having fragments, or pieces of the Azure is not foreign within the series at all.

The successor of the Azure, Noel Vermillion.

One misconception I believe you’re taking on Glass, is that you think Noel, and the Master Unit have access to the full azure.

Due to how she’s referred to, this is an easy mistake to make. But Noel is simply the inheritor of the Azure, its chosen observer.

Noel does not have the “True Azure” she is only the inheritor of it. This allows her to have almost uncontested PI and Observation, and it also allows her to ascertain the location of the gate from within the boundary, and also open it.

This is the reason why Terumi absorbed her. By doing so he was no longer affected by the master units intervention, and was going to use her power to enter into the gate and obtain the Azure, which by his words would allow him to surpass Amaterasu.

So no, Noel doesn’t own the azure, neither does Amaterasu. Or else Terumi would have just gotten it from absorbing her.

Now we all should know this, should being the key word. But I gave a basic run down anyway to get these arguments out of the way.

No Amaterasu has the full power of the azure, that's what happened to both her and Noel when they got their status, the fact you claim otherwise is baffling to me given the lore.

What are Azure Fragments?

Now to go back into this.

Azure fragments are crystallizations of the azure, that can create embodiments of concepts and collapse all possibilities into certainties. (BBDW)

In the story, Izanami has fragments of the azure, and will give them to the chosen once they’ve defeated her. This is proven by Nine the Phantom, who is the one that directs you to Izanami.
Izanami herself once confronted by the chosen, tells them that by defeating her they can recreate the world as they wish, by using the Azure in her possession. For those that don’t want the azure to recreate the world, it can even be used to gift information.

Is she talking about the True Azure, or the Azure Fragments?

The main debate that we’ve been having, is that Izanami is referring to the true Azure in all of these statements. Especially the one where she claims that the Azure holds: “All the possibilities of our world.”

This is mainly being contended by her interaction with Terumi, who you think is suggesting that Izanami is “Lying” about everything she’s telling the chosen, but this isn’t true.

Terumi is the one who’s mistaken, he thought that Izanami was giving out the full Azure, but Izanami never claimed that she did or was. His remark saying “You’ve got sick tastes woman.” Is not Terumi calling Izanami a liar. Terumi knows as well that the worlds created by the Azure Fragments cannot exist forever, and is saying that she has sick tastes for making them fight over it. Terumi knows that Noel’s will is stopping everyone’s world from existing, which is why the fragment of the Azure is useless to him, her power exceeds It. Which is why instead of using the fragment, instead of using Hazama (his literal vessel) he wants Noel vermillion instead.

So no, Glass. Terumi isn’t saying that everything Izanami is saying about the Azure is a lie, he’s saying that nothing but the full azure can please him due to Noel’s existence. Either that, or Noel herself.

But even if Terumi is telling us that Izanami lying about everything, it still would make no sense.

Why? Well because we have proof of the Azure Fragments capabilities. Izanami tells the chosen that the fragments can create worlds for them, and it can, and it does. She tells them that the fragments can give them information, and it can, and it does.

Nine proves this right as well, showing Hakumen the very Worlds that the chosen create. She then tells him that until Noel is out of the picture, their worlds and possibilities cannot be realized. This is exactly what Izanami tells every character after their world is destroyed.

So how is Izanami lying to them, if everything she said is proven true their multiple arcades? If you say that Izanami is lying, you have to disprove every single one of those instances. You have to disprove that their worlds aren’t being created, and that Noel isn’t destroying them. Your argument that “She’s lying” cannot solely be used against her telling Carl that the fragments contain all the possibilities of their universe, it just doesn’t work like that.

How do we know what azure they’re talking about?

Another argument being pushed is that even if she isn’t lying, she’s referring to the True Azure and not the fragments when she makes grand statements.

I understand why you think that, since all statements made towards the Azure in that way has referred to the Full Azure. Except. . This isn’t true.

Here Kokonoe says that by harnessing the Azure Grimoire has near infinite amounts of power, and Roy reaffirmed this. (There’s no contradiction between near infinite, and infinite in these circumstances. Kokonoe doesn’t think it’s infinite because it feeds off your life force, which isn’t an infinite supply. But if paired with the boundary, it would be.)

These are statements of infinite power, despite the Grimoire not even being complete.

So these statements of the azure fragments holding infinite possibilities isn’t far fetched, a fragment of infinite is still infinite, not matter what form it takes on.

There are more examples of direct quotes about the azure, while holding a fragment of it. Here Rachel discusses the azure, discussing all the possibilities that can come true, it being the foundation of existence, etc. Rachel says that despite all this, nothing will change the world, even though she’s holding a fragment of it. She then says that even if she were to hold the entire Azure in her hand, still nothing would change. So those statements she made about possibilities, still applies to that azure fragment, she is making no distinction.

When someone talks about the Azure, and what it can do, it’s talked about as The Azure. Even though it’s a fragment, it still has the general capabilities of the real azure although on a lesser scale. Here relius makes the same statement while holding a fragment, so these statements are not going to be seperated by the full azure and an azure fragment.

Doomsday.

Also, doomsday has already happened outside of the embryo. Izanami wants the full destruction of everything, as doomsday is the complete annihilation of all possibilities. So yes, her creating more worlds (possibilities) by giving them the azure makes sense. All possibilities needs to be created and realized within the embryo, so that not a single one will exist afterwards.

Also they don’t need feats of observing the boundary, it’s apart of the makeup of their world. The argument being made their, is that each fragment contains the layout of their world inside of it, which includes a boundary. So the fragments being destroyed means they’re destroying not only the possibilities inside, but the entire world itself.

I’ve basically addressed and attacked everything, so I hope the staff that are following along will take the time to read it.

 

[Theglassman12]

What are you talking about "Azure in her own verse"? You do realize Xblaze is literally a prequel to Blazblue right? The entirety of the second Xblaze visual novel literally stars Nine trying to find Celica in the phantom field, there's only one Azure in the boundary, there's never been stated to be more than one "True Azure", otherwise Terumi would've known that.

Even with all the statements you have for the azure fragments, none of that remotely addresses the Low 1-C buffs you're trying to push for. At best they're Low 2-C feats for the azure fragments and nothing more, none of the scans you have remotely backs up the boundary as a whole being affected by the azure fragments, nor does the other characters having some powers of the azure remotely display these levels of power on their own.

"The so-called Azure... makes any dream world a reality. People believe this bull and fight over it.

He literally calls her claims of making the dream world a reality a lie in the line before. Also if she was never lying to him, why does Izanami not clarify to Terumi that he mistook what she offered to the chosen? Because if he mistook what she said then she'd correct his claims. Especially when she was willingly gonna help him get a new vessel with an azure fragment. None of what you're claiming here makes any sense when the arcade modes tells us otherwise.

Ok, and I've said it numerous times, none of these feats remotely comes close to Low 1-C at all because worlds are not the boundary itself. None of the worlds being made by the chosen are remotely comparable to the boundary, which is the reason anyone has a Low 1-C rating in the verse.

having infinite power is just another way of saying they have access to the endless amounts of seithr the boundary has with the grimoire. The real Azure is the foundation of everything, the grimoires aren't. Even Hazama himself says that the true azure is the real deal, and his grimoire and ragna's aren't comparable to the real deal.

No she doesn't need to make more worlds, when was that ever stated that she needed to make worlds to cause Doomsday? She uses the embryo to absorb all the worlds that already exists, and erase them in the process. That was her end goal, not creating more worlds. Also yes they 1000% need feats of observing the boundary, that's literally the only reason anyone has Low 1-C scaling to begin with thanks to its very nature. If the characters you're trying to buff are scaling to something that has no feats of observing the boundary, then it's not a Low 1-C feat.

 

[Strife304]

What are you talking about "Azure in her own verse"? You do realize Xblaze is literally a prequel to Blazblue right? The entirety of the second Xblaze visual novel literally stars Nine trying to find Celica in the phantom field, there's only one Azure in the boundary, there's never been stated to be more than one "True Azure", otherwise Terumi would've known that.

This is clearly a Straw Man fallacy, Comic never stated that there was more than one True Azure, nor is the timeline placement of Xblaze a discussion to be had. Next.

He literally calls her claims of making the dream world a reality a lie in the line before. Also if she was never lying to him, why does Izanami not clarify to Terumi that he mistook what she offered to the chosen? Because if he mistook what she said then she'd correct his claims. Especially when she was willingly gonna help him get a new vessel with an azure fragment. None of what you're claiming here makes any sense when the arcade modes tells us otherwise.

This is intellectually dishonest.

Izanami has never been the type to needlessly explain herself, especially with Terumi. Chronophantasma debunks your assertion that "she would correct his claim", as they've never had this relationship of mutual understanding. Up until now he's been her facetious, unruly subordinate who she's threatened to kill multiple times. Izanami does not care for Terumi, further illustrated in the Act 2, where she even calls him a sideshow.

Using a single line from Terumi to discredit the Azure fragment's feats and numerous statements, and lore entry from Dark War is also dishonest. You also asserted that Terumi would know certain things in your Straw man argument about xblaze, but Terumi isn't all-knowing and actually wasnt sure if Izanami had the True Azure or not if we look at his full Act 2 dialogue, lol.

Terumi wanted the Azure she had, wasn't certain if she had the True Azure or not, and is specifically referring to his own dilemma when saying "it wont last long. it's useless to me..."

Which can mean two things: in the face of the other Act 2's, Izanami's extensive explanations on the Azure fragments capabilities, and specifically Nine's Act 2 where we are shown all of this is true, we can disregard that scan as Terumi being an unreliable source, and/or Glass has completely misconstrued character dialogue and has been quoting out of context, which is another fallacy.

For safe measures, take a look at some of the rest of Terumi's dialogue after he calls her a liar. He stomps on the Azure just to see Izanami's reaction, furthering that Terumi delights in undermining serious matters and is just trying to get a rise out of her. Izanami is moreso baffled by how much of an IDIOT Terumi is for all of this and mentions he could have made a vessel, does Terumi deny that the fragment can do this? No, his immediate response and the conversation prior implies that it can, but it isn't enough of what he needs.

Terumi has a forked tongue, if you genuinely believe that this one line of him calling her a liar is enough to debunk ALL of the consistent statements and showings of the fragments power throughout this entire thread, then this discussion can go no further and we cant keep arguing in circles over a comprehension issue.

 

[Strife304]

Ok, and I've said it numerous times, none of these feats remotely comes close to Low 1-C at all because worlds are not the boundary itself. None of the worlds being made by the chosen are remotely comparable to the boundary, which is the reason anyone has a Low 1-C rating in the verse.

You've said it but havent disproven it, you can't use Terumi's statement as the sole argument. It doesn't have to scale to low 1-C, because of everything provided, 2-A is the weakest.

At the weakest it’s a 2-A cosmology, due to holding the infinite possibilities of every character. Once you take into account that all the possibilities of the main world + the general cosmology is included (A boundary, which transcends space and time) it becomes low 1-C.

Again you make an assertion and quote out of context, Hazama wanting the real azure has nothing to do with his own body, lol.

having infinite power is just another way of saying they have access to the endless amounts of seithr the boundary has with the grimoire.

Where's the proof for this, why would it only be Seithr reserves that they gain from channeling the boundary when characters like Litchi are physically amped by it and able to keep up with stronger characters thanks to Lao Jiu?

 

[Comicgyal]

What are you talking about "Azure in her own verse"? You do realize Xblaze is literally a prequel to Blazblue right? The entirety of the second Xblaze visual novel literally stars Nine trying to find Celica in the phantom field, there's only one Azure in the boundary, there's never been stated to be more than one "True Azure", otherwise Terumi would've known that.

The xblaze boundary isn’t connected to the Blazblue one, this is because their boundary is closed off. We know their verses are further unconnected, because doomsday destroyed the Bloodedge experience world, which is why Naoto is in the embryo in the first place. He’s searching for a possibility that will allow their world to be reborn again, because all of it was destroyed. Xblaze is not the same case. Even if there was more than one true azure, terumi literally wouldn’t know. He isn’t omniscient, infact the entire arcade with Izanami that you’re referencing is an anti-intelligence feat for Terumi. Since he thought Izanami had the full azure, and went out of his way to confront her. If Terumi was so knowledgeable about the azure, he would have known that the Azure was behind the gate the entire time, and would have just went for Noel vermillion. So please stop crediting him like he’s done all knowing source.

He literally calls her claims of making the dream world a reality a lie in the line before. Also if she was never lying to him, why does Izanami not clarify to Terumi that he mistook what she offered to the chosen? Because if he mistook what she said then she'd correct his claims. Especially when she was willingly gonna help him get a new vessel with an azure fragment. None of what you're claiming here makes any sense when the arcade modes tells us otherwise.

Izanami does not care about Terumi, at all. You asking why she didn’t clarify to Terumi, despite her telling Terumi she doesn’t even want to be bothered by his presence is very funny. Also :

Izanami has never been the type to needlessly explain herself, especially with Terumi. Chronophantasma debunks your assertion that "she would correct his claim", as they've never had this relationship of mutual understanding. Up until now he's been her facetious, unruly subordinate who she's threatened to kill multiple times. Izanami does not care for Terumi, further illustrated in the Act 2, where she even calls him a sideshow.

Using a single line from Terumi to discredit the Azure fragment's feats and numerous statements, and lore entry from Dark War is also dishonest. You also asserted that Terumi would know certain things in your Straw man argument about xblaze, but Terumi isn't all-knowing and actually wasnt sure if Izanami had the True Azure or not if we look at his full Act 2 dialogue, lol.

No she doesn't need to make more worlds, when was that ever stated that she needed to make worlds to cause Doomsday? She uses the embryo to absorb all the worlds that already exists, and erase them in the process. That was her end goal, not creating more worlds. Also yes they 1000% need feats of observing the boundary, that's literally the only reason anyone has Low 1-C scaling to begin with thanks to its very nature. If the characters you're trying to buff are scaling to something that has no feats of observing the boundary, then it's not a Low 1-C feat.

That’s not what I said at all. I said that Izanami wants completely annihilation of all possibilities, and the ones made by the fragments become possibilities inside the embryo. Which is what she says to Carl. So her allowing them to create more possibilities for her to destroy, goes hand in hand with her goal.

Also, no, they don’t need feats of observing the boundary as long as it exists in their fragmented world, which based off simple logic it’s easier to assume it does than it does not. The justifications that you have in place for L1-C are not the only ones possible, (some of them infact make no sense, like Ragnas profile, but that’s for another day)

So by the boundary being in those fragments, and those fragments being destroyed, that entire 5-D world is being destroyed. Even if you don’t agree with that, the lowest possible tier is still 2-A like Strife said.

 

[Antvasima]

Since this thread seems to have been rejected by our staff, should it be closed?

 

[Comicgyal]

Since this thread seems to have been rejected by our staff, should it be closed?

No, there have been arguments made since staff last commented that needs to be addressed. Could you retag them? Or just tag new ones.

 

[Comicgyal]

Also for any staff members that comment past this point, please read this thoroughly:

I feel as though some points have been lost, so I’ll be making an attempt to redirect us. I’ll be going over all the main points, and my arguments to what you’ve provided to them again. But in one large post, so nothing can be skipped over.

then the arguments that come after, and then make your conclusion (with sufficient substantiations). A simple agree or disagree without context will not suffice.

 

[ZoroNotZolo]

I don't really know much about BlazBlue, but I have been reading through and weighing both arguments. I'm leaning toward agreeing for now.

 

[Scottycj256]

At best they're Low 2-C feats for the azure fragments and nothing more

Im willing to accept Low 2-C physicals

 

[Theglassman12]

@Strife304

the Azure brought her there due to her contact with the Azure in her own verse. Which is why Es recognizes herself as “One with the possibility of the Azure.” Despite their verses having no prior connection, the azure is the great unifier.

So you didn't bother reading anything Comic said in the first part of her arguments, because she blatantly claims they're from different verses with no evidence of proving that, and in fact has shown the opposite with Nine and Celica being in the same verse. And yes the fact she's claiming they're from different verses means the timeline placement is a discussion at this point, so stop scoffing this stuff off.

You say that despite her constantly explaining to everyone, even to her own mortal enemies that either she cannot die because Noel keeps her alive, or that their dreams cannot be made true because of Noel's existence. So your claim that she never explains anything is just flat out wrong. What part of my arguments is remotely dishonest? Tell me right now, because throughout the entirety of this CRT I've kept telling you that these feats are at best Low 2-C, for someone who loves to claim I'm pulling fallacies you sure love to strawman me a lot by telling me the feats are completely worthless, when I haven't and have kept saying it's at best Low 1-C. It's still not Low 1-C, for someone who keeps claiming I'm being dishonest or just wrong you sure do a bang up job debunking my arguments that it doesn't scale to Low 1-C. Except terumi's not an idiot, if you bothered reading the rest of the scene he flat out said he had a backup plan, which was using Noel and Hakumen and Hihirokane to make his vessel, which works wonders given he's able to fully adapt to his body again in his arcade mode as he stated.

No 2-A is not the weakest, because nothing about the azure fragments ever said it creates all the possibilities, only one of the possibilities for the chosen. Which is Low 2-C at best.

What am I taking out of context here? Explain how Hazama hyping up the real azure as the real deal is me taking shit out of context given the entire context of the lore.

Because it's literally a cauldron, a portable cauldron that just gives them endless amounts of seithr, nothing about it remotely implies they reach Low 1-C levels of power.

@Comicgyal No the boundaries were never closed off, they were always the same boundary. Bloodedge's world being destroyed by Doomsday means they're in the same verse, what part of this remotely implies they're separate verses despite sharing the same exact lore? You say that Terumi's not the most knowledgeable despite being around researching the blazblue since the dawn of time, so I'll take his words over what lies Izanami spews to Carl.

She also doesn't care about any of the six heroes or anyone else who wants to kill her, and yet she tries to give them their worlds and explain how Noel prevents their worlds from being true so why would she not do the same to terumi? You do realize this opens more questions than answers right?

No it doesn't line up with her goal, all the possibilities have always existed, Izanami doesn't need to create possibilities when they've all been absorbed by the Embryo and been destroyed in the end. Telling everyone to kill Noel which ends everything only fastens her goal since they'd die faster.

For the nth time yes they do, at bare minimum they need to scale fully to the boundary or any of the god tiers to even reach Low 1-C, without that you're not getting tier 1 in the verse. Also nice false equivalency for Ragna as you conveniently ignored the fact he vastly upscales from Amaterasu and Takamagahara. You claiming there's more than one boundary due to the fragments existing is complete headcanon, prove there exists more than one boundary and you might have an argument here.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Antvasima call some more staff members, if they disagree with the buffs then the Low 1-C buffs aren't gonna pass.

 

[Comicgyal]

@Comicgyal No the boundaries were never closed off, they were always the same boundary. Bloodedge's world being destroyed by Doomsday means they're in the same verse, what part of this remotely implies they're separate verses despite sharing the same exact lore? You say that Terumi's not the most knowledgeable despite being around researching the blazblue since the dawn of time, so I'll take his words over what lies Izanami spews to Carl.

I’m talking about the xblaze boundary. Their boundary is shut off from their world, due to their embryo. Bloodedge got destroyed because their boundary is connected to their world, which is connected to Blazblue.

Also again, terumi is obviously not the most knowledgeable if he thought Izanami had the full azure lol.

She also doesn't care about any of the six heroes or anyone else who wants to kill her, and yet she tries to give them their worlds and explain how Noel prevents their worlds from being true so why would she not do the same to terumi? You do realize this opens more questions than answers right?

It doesn’t open up more questions. Since their interaction in CP, we know that Izanami just doesn’t like Terumi. Go watch that again and then talk to me about this point. The way she doesn’t care about all the other characters, is not the same feelings she has against terumi. She quite literally does not like him, at all.

@Strife304


No it doesn't line up with her goal, all the possibilities have always existed, Izanami doesn't need to create possibilities when they've all been absorbed by the Embryo and been destroyed in the end. Telling everyone to kill Noel which ends everything only fastens her goal since they'd die faster.

All possibilities have no always existed, because they possibilities of their worlds existing literally did not exist until they got the azure. If their possibilities already existed before they got the azure fragment, then giving them the fragment would be pointless. She could just show them the worlds through hax, like how Nine did.

For the nth time yes they do, at bare minimum they need to scale fully to the boundary or any of the god tiers to even reach Low 1-C, without that you're not getting tier 1 in the verse. Also nice false equivalency for Ragna as you conveniently ignored the fact he vastly upscales from Amaterasu and Takamagahara. You claiming there's more than one boundary due to the fragments existing is complete headcanon, prove there exists more than one boundary and you might have an argument here.

There doesn’t need to be “multiple” boundaries, since they’re all connected anyways. But here’s a moment in CP, when Litchi suggests that there more than one boundary, and Hazama entertains her idea. So, not like it would be a baseless assumption to say that there is.
l

 

[Antvasima]

No, there have been arguments made since staff last commented that needs to be addressed. Could you retag them? Or just tag new ones.

@Antvasima call some more staff members, if they disagree with the buffs then the Low 1-C buffs aren't gonna pass.

Can you first write easy to understand explanations in single posts for what they currently need to evaluate please?

 

[Theglassman12]

You still haven't proven there exists more than one boundary, they're all from the same verse and you're gonna need a lot of evidence to suggests there exists more than one Boundary. He went to clarify if she had the full azure or not, and knows enough about the azure to call her out saying it's not the real deal, something very few people in the verse remotely do, even Jin of all people.

At this point you're just being dishonest, if she didn't like Terumi why did she bother giving him a fragment in the first place? Why would she tell him anything that would remotely help him if she just did not like him at all? Because she does the same thing to her mortal enemies by telling them what they need to do to make their dreams come true, why would she all of a sudden not do the same thing to a guy who's been working for her?

Yes they have always existed, the boundary literally has a statement on all the possibilities being contained in the boundary, which Amaterasu and Takamagahara has observed since the dawn of time.

So you agree that there doesn't exist numerous boundaries, which means your azure fragments having another boundary arguments just falls flat on its face, which basically means no Low 1-C buffs.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Antvasima None of what Comicgyals and Strife's arguments that they present remotely come close to Low 1-C since it relies on a lot of assumptions that the azure fragments that the characters break are observing (another way of saying its allowed to exist) the entire Boundary, the Low 1-C dimension that all of the god tiers scale to in the first place. Going off all of the scans that they have, at best this would be Low 2-C as they can take a chosen's wish, and make it into a possibility/world. But that's the furthest extent that the fragments have shown to do. Especially when the Black Beast, who scales above everyone else in the verse has a Low 2-C feat of ending an entire world in the Prime Field War, and Terumi himself mentioning how with a paradise of fear he'd surpass the black beast on his own. The main issue that prevents a solid buff is that Izanami herself flat out said she'd struggle to replicate the 5-A feat that everyone scales to, though given how strong she is compared to the other top tier others could be made an argument for solid Low 2-C while others just at least 5-A, possibly Low 2-C, or 5-A still depending on how the scaling gets.

 

[Antvasima]

@Antvasima None of what Comicgyals and Strife's arguments that they present remotely come close to Low 1-C since it relies on a lot of assumptions that the azure fragments that the characters break are observing (another way of saying its allowed to exist) the entire Boundary, the Low 1-C dimension that all of the god tiers scale to in the first place. Going off all of the scans that they have, at best this would be Low 2-C as they can take a chosen's wish, and make it into a possibility/world. But that's the furthest extent that the fragments have shown to do. Especially when the Black Beast, who scales above everyone else in the verse has a Low 2-C feat of ending an entire world in the Prime Field War, and Terumi himself mentioning how with a paradise of fear he'd surpass the black beast on his own. The main issue that prevents a solid buff is that Izanami herself flat out said she'd struggle to replicate the 5-A feat that everyone scales to, though given how strong she is compared to the other top tier others could be made an argument for solid Low 2-C while others just at least 5-A, possibly Low 2-C, or 5-A still depending on how the scaling gets.

Okay. Is that fine with you, @Everything12 and @Elizhaa ?

 

[Everything12]

Based off Izanami's statement I prefer to keep it as is and just treat the Azure Fragments that are destroyed as holding the power to perform Low 2-C feats but not have Low 2-C durability.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for the evaluation.

 

[Comicgyal]

If you want me to write a smaller explanation than what I wrote below, you’d have to give me a few hours.

I feel as though some points have been lost, so I’ll be making an attempt to redirect us. I’ll be going over all the main points, and my arguments to what you’ve provided to them again. But in one large post, so nothing can be skipped over.

What is the “True Azure”?

I won’t go into strenuous detail, but I will give some accounts from character statements.

The Azure is an item that weaves all fates together, encompassing all of the infinite possibilities in the verse. The azure is the foundation of their entire world, and without it their world wouldn’t exist. The “True Azure” is locked behind the gates, located in the depths of their boundary. In Cf it is guarded by Es, the Azure brought her there due to her contact with the Azure in her own verse. Which is why Es recognizes herself as “One with the possibility of the Azure.” Despite their verses having no prior connection, the azure is the great unifier.

Azure “Fragments” in previous games.

In many games before Cf, there are many characters who contain fragments of the Azure, even characters who have seen the full thing.

For example, Nu comes from the Azure, and because of this she holds a piece of the azure inside her.

Arakune as well made it to the azure, and has a piece of the azure inside him.

Characters having fragments, or pieces of the Azure is not foreign within the series at all.

The successor of the Azure, Noel Vermillion.

One misconception I believe you’re taking on Glass, is that you think Noel, and the Master Unit have access to the full azure.

Due to how she’s referred to, this is an easy mistake to make. But Noel is simply the inheritor of the Azure, its chosen observer.

Noel does not have the “True Azure” she is only the inheritor of it. This allows her to have almost uncontested PI and Observation, and it also allows her to ascertain the location of the gate from within the boundary, and also open it.

This is the reason why Terumi absorbed her. By doing so he was no longer affected by the master units intervention, and was going to use her power to enter into the gate and obtain the Azure, which by his words would allow him to surpass Amaterasu.

So no, Noel doesn’t own the azure, neither does Amaterasu. Or else Terumi would have just gotten it from absorbing her.

Now we all should know this, should being the key word. But I gave a basic run down anyway to get these arguments out of the way.



What are Azure Fragments?

Now to go back into this.

Azure fragments are crystallizations of the azure, that can create embodiments of concepts and collapse all possibilities into certainties. (BBDW)

In the story, Izanami has fragments of the azure, and will give them to the chosen once they’ve defeated her. This is proven by Nine the Phantom, who is the one that directs you to Izanami.
Izanami herself once confronted by the chosen, tells them that by defeating her they can recreate the world as they wish, by using the Azure in her possession. For those that don’t want the azure to recreate the world, it can even be used to gift information.

Is she talking about the True Azure, or the Azure Fragments?

The main debate that we’ve been having, is that Izanami is referring to the true Azure in all of these statements. Especially the one where she claims that the Azure holds: “All the possibilities of our world.”

This is mainly being contended by her interaction with Terumi, who you think is suggesting that Izanami is “Lying” about everything she’s telling the chosen, but this isn’t true.

Terumi is the one who’s mistaken, he thought that Izanami was giving out the full Azure, but Izanami never claimed that she did or was. His remark saying “You’ve got sick tastes woman.” Is not Terumi calling Izanami a liar. Terumi knows as well that the worlds created by the Azure Fragments cannot exist forever, and is saying that she has sick tastes for making them fight over it. Terumi knows that Noel’s will is stopping everyone’s world from existing, which is why the fragment of the Azure is useless to him, her power exceeds It. Which is why instead of using the fragment, instead of using Hazama (his literal vessel) he wants Noel vermillion instead.

So no, Glass. Terumi isn’t saying that everything Izanami is saying about the Azure is a lie, he’s saying that nothing but the full azure can please him due to Noel’s existence. Either that, or Noel herself.

But even if Terumi is telling us that Izanami lying about everything, it still would make no sense.

Why? Well because we have proof of the Azure Fragments capabilities. Izanami tells the chosen that the fragments can create worlds for them, and it can, and it does. She tells them that the fragments can give them information, and it can, and it does.

Nine proves this right as well, showing Hakumen the very Worlds that the chosen create. She then tells him that until Noel is out of the picture, their worlds and possibilities cannot be realized. This is exactly what Izanami tells every character after their world is destroyed.

So how is Izanami lying to them, if everything she said is proven true their multiple arcades? If you say that Izanami is lying, you have to disprove every single one of those instances. You have to disprove that their worlds aren’t being created, and that Noel isn’t destroying them. Your argument that “She’s lying” cannot solely be used against her telling Carl that the fragments contain all the possibilities of their universe, it just doesn’t work like that.

How do we know what azure they’re talking about?

Another argument being pushed is that even if she isn’t lying, she’s referring to the True Azure and not the fragments when she makes grand statements.

I understand why you think that, since all statements made towards the Azure in that way has referred to the Full Azure. Except. . This isn’t true.

Here Kokonoe says that by harnessing the Azure Grimoire has near infinite amounts of power, and Roy reaffirmed this. (There’s no contradiction between near infinite, and infinite in these circumstances. Kokonoe doesn’t think it’s infinite because it feeds off your life force, which isn’t an infinite supply. But if paired with the boundary, it would be.)

These are statements of infinite power, despite the Grimoire not even being complete.

So these statements of the azure fragments holding infinite possibilities isn’t far fetched, a fragment of infinite is still infinite, not matter what form it takes on.

There are more examples of direct quotes about the azure, while holding a fragment of it. Here Rachel discusses the azure, discussing all the possibilities that can come true, it being the foundation of existence, etc. Rachel says that despite all this, nothing will change the world, even though she’s holding a fragment of it. She then says that even if she were to hold the entire Azure in her hand, still nothing would change. So those statements she made about possibilities, still applies to that azure fragment, she is making no distinction.

When someone talks about the Azure, and what it can do, it’s talked about as The Azure. Even though it’s a fragment, it still has the general capabilities of the real azure although on a lesser scale. Here relius makes the same statement while holding a fragment, so these statements are not going to be seperated by the full azure and an azure fragment.

Doomsday.

Also, doomsday has already happened outside of the embryo. Izanami wants the full destruction of everything, as doomsday is the complete annihilation of all possibilities. So yes, her creating more worlds (possibilities) by giving them the azure makes sense. All possibilities needs to be created and realized within the embryo, so that not a single one will exist afterwards.

Also they don’t need feats of observing the boundary, it’s apart of the makeup of their world. The argument being made their, is that each fragment contains the layout of their world inside of it, which includes a boundary. So the fragments being destroyed means they’re destroying not only the possibilities inside, but the entire world itself.

I’ve basically addressed and attacked everything, so I hope the staff that are following along will take the time to read it.