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DCEU: Mother Boxes redux

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Inspired by this CRT, I decided to give the feat a shot based on what I thought was the necessary physics context.

In ZSJL, the Mother Boxes are instruments capable of converting energy to create or form matter. They are world creating/destroying machines; the three together forming the Unity, which transforms the planets they are unleashed upon into an exact copy of Apokolips, stripping all transformed-life of free will. The Mother Boxes operate with a science so advanced it’s blatantly considered to be sorcery by the old gods, identified by STAR Labs as collective perpetual energy matrices. To add on,

As a result, the Mother Boxes’ terraforming process explicitly works through entropy reversal and mass-energy conversion, and functions on a quantum mechanical scale; the boxes individually acting as arbitrarily absorbing energy-dumps, they “feed” into each other to the point of producing the equivalent of a galactic core composed of multiple black holes (a quasar), which gives us an idea of their ability of manipulating information. The sheer energy expenditure required to manipulate the Earth’s material configuration on a quantum scale to the point where it’s compressed into a singularity (at least one in the composition of a quasar-object), the most high entropy state possible, and then reversing the process to reconfigure another planet like Apokolips is mindboggling and involves a bit of math.

Here is the attempt:


The Bekenstein bound is used for the entropy because the intermediate terraforming state, a singularity-like collapse into a quasar object equivalent, places the system outside the regime where classical statistical mechanics can meaningfully define entropy. It’s literally the most high entropy thing possible, which makes the information-theoretic treatment necessary, and Landauer's principle then prices the two operations: erasing Earth's ~10⁷⁵-bit microstate configuration, and writing the corresponding ~10⁷⁵ bits of Apokolips', assumed roughly equivalent in complexity due to being similar-scale planets.

The reservoir temperature is taken as 300 K throughout. This is justified variably: it is the ambient operating temperature of the Mother Boxes, which are sitting in open atmosphere; it corresponds to the configuration temperature of both the input state (Earth) and the target state (Apokolips); and the Mother Boxes are treated as a closed, self-contained system, feeding energy between each other rather than radiating into space. The alternative, an open system radiating at quasar temperatures, is ruled out as the energy dumped into the surrounding space would be sufficient to destroy Apokolips before it could form.

Thoughts?
 
I think Low 4-C is more reasonable for now.
4-B seems too dependent on layered theoretical assumptions, while Low 4-C is much more direct and easier to support.
 
I think Low 4-C is more reasonable for now.
4-B seems too dependent on layered theoretical assumptions, while Low 4-C is much more direct and easier to support.
Low 4-C is the minimum end of the feat since that involves mass-energy conversion, the 4-B end is how much energy would be required to actually reverse the entropy generated by collapsing the Earth into a quasar by reassembling the information into an Apokolips-copy, which is explicitly more than the energy required to just collapse it into a quasar in the first place (which is, in a roundabout way, just mass-energy).

Then again I’m waiting to see what CGMs think about this.
 
At this point I’m fine with leaning towards the minimum ends of the feat but I am genuinely curious about the entropy stuff and if that’s consistent

I know Snyder alluded to Darkseid killing stars in the sequel pitch Bible/thing but I’m not sure if that supports this MegaFoe stuff
 
Ditch the fandom sources, as the wiki guidelines explicitly prohibit them from being used, and replace them with the actual source of whichever part you're claiming.

Other than that, the math seems fine as you're also accounting for Earth-like atmosphere and behaviour instead of assuming it to be a perfect sphere
 
Ditch the fandom sources, as the wiki guidelines explicitly prohibit them from being used, and replace them with the actual source of whichever part you're claiming.
I was just using it for transcripts. Does this work?
 
I’d say so the discussion on both methods to be in the same thread get this one closed and i’ll ad it to the op of my own.
 
In ZSJL, the Mother Boxes are instruments capable of converting energy to create or form matter. They are world creating/destroying machines; the three together forming the Unity, which transforms the planets they are unleashed upon into an exact copy of Apokolips, stripping all transformed-life of free will. The Mother Boxes operate with a science so advanced it’s blatantly considered to be sorcery by the old gods, identified by STAR Labs as collective perpetual energy matrices. To add on,

As a result, the Mother Boxes’ terraforming process explicitly works through entropy reversal and mass-energy conversion, and functions on a quantum mechanical scale; the boxes individually acting as arbitrarily absorbing energy-dumps, they “feed” into each other to the point of producing the equivalent of a galactic core composed of multiple black holes (a quasar), which gives us an idea of their ability of manipulating information. The sheer energy expenditure required to manipulate the Earth’s material configuration on a quantum scale to the point where it’s compressed into a singularity (at least one in the composition of a quasar-object), the most high entropy state possible, and then reversing the process to reconfigure another planet like Apokolips is mindboggling and involves a bit of math.
It's by definition not explicit if they don't outright say that, and they don't. Basically all of this amounts to "they can use energy to make matter" (and a bunch of unrelated statements that just make them sound more impressive) which isn't enough to assume all these specific scientific processes are taking place, otherwise any creation feat utilizing a UES would meet that bar. Neither this nor the other thread assuming E=mc^2 are acceptable.
 
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It's by definition not explicit if they don't outright say that, and they don't. Basically all of this amounts to "they can use energy to make matter" (and a bunch of unrelated statements that just make them sound more impressive) which isn't enough to assume all these specific scientific processes are taking place, otherwise any creation feat utilizing a UES would meet that bar. Neither this nor the other thread assuming E=mc^2 are acceptable.
I think rejecting the 4-B entropy model is fair, but that should not automatically reject a conservative Low 4-C interpretation as well.

The Mother Boxes are not being argued as simple “matter creation” devices in a vacuum. The Unity is explicitly portrayed as a planetary transformation process: turning a world into a copy of Apokolips, while Cyborg directly describes the Boxes as machines that rearrange, regenerate, and reinstate matter down to prior particle relationships.

So the question is not “can any creation feat use E=mc^2?” The question is whether a global planetary conversion/restructuring event can justify a conservative low-end energy interpretation. That is a much narrower claim than the 4-B argument, and it should be evaluated separately instead of being dismissed together with the more speculative entropy-based approach.
 
I think rejecting the 4-B entropy model is fair, but that should not automatically reject a conservative Low 4-C interpretation as well.

The Mother Boxes are not being argued as simple “matter creation” devices in a vacuum. The Unity is explicitly portrayed as a planetary transformation process: turning a world into a copy of Apokolips, while Cyborg directly describes the Boxes as machines that rearrange, regenerate, and reinstate matter down to prior particle relationships.

So the question is not “can any creation feat use E=mc^2?” The question is whether a global planetary conversion/restructuring event can justify a conservative low-end energy interpretation. That is a much narrower claim than the 4-B argument, and it should be evaluated separately instead of being dismissed together with the more speculative entropy-based approach.
Fair enough, but with the "burn down a house" comparison they make it pretty clear this is talking about chemical changes, not anything on a more sub-atomic level. In fact the boxes are clearly stated to be unable to create particles, they can just alter them.
 
It's by definition not explicit if they don't outright say that, and they don't. Basically all of this amounts to "they can use energy to make matter" (and a bunch of unrelated statements that just make them sound more impressive) which isn't enough to assume all these specific scientific processes are taking place, otherwise any creation feat utilizing a UES would meet that bar. Neither this nor the other thread assuming E=mc^2 are acceptable.
Since this is only really taking an issue with the mass-energy statement (which is really what the OP calc is reducible to in terms of the quantum microstate stuff, since that just is averaging out to the mass-energy plus some multiplier for the temperature ‘above’ the thermodynamic floor just implied by the Earth as stored informationally in its Bekenstein geometry; black holes are cold) I don’t think this is a good argument. If your main objection is that it can’t create/destroy matter, only transform it, then that’s just what the conservation of mass implies. Barry’s statement about this would actually just support mass-energy conversion being done if anything.
Fair enough, but with the "burn down a house" comparison they make it pretty clear this is talking about chemical changes, not anything on a more sub-atomic level. In fact the boxes are clearly stated to be unable to create particles, they can just alter them.
Turning the smoke from a burnt house back into a house is just standard entropy-reversal, which in that case would require reassembling the chemical bonds, sure. But the explicit mechanism being used to ‘reinstate anterior particle relationships’ means that this is working on a very small scale. The classical (no consideration of quantum microstates) thermodynamical entropy here for the planet-scale transformation just doesn’t work because of the process blatantly reducing the Earth through mass-energy conversion to a quasar, whose entropy can’t be calculated the same way a house’s chemical burning could.

At minimum E=Mc^2 should be accepted, but the method used in the OP is just reducible to that (in terms of the energy derived of the Bekenstein geometry, AKA what a black hole/quasar with Earth’s mass would average out to) with a multiplier for the actual temperature needed for the transformation, since Apokolips isn’t just deep space.
 
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Fair enough, but with the "burn down a house" comparison they make it pretty clear this is talking about chemical changes, not anything on a more sub-atomic level. In fact the boxes are clearly stated to be unable to create particles, they can just alter them.
is saying they’re never implied to operate on a sub-atomic level, while also conceding to the fact that they operate on a particle level not a contradiction?

You reversing a chemical change via particle manipulation, it doesn’t have to be mutually exclusive.

You’re focusing on the effect it creates (smoke back into house), while ignoring the actual scientific processes it uses to do such as i outlined in my thread (energy to mass conversion via particle manipulation)

If you actually re-read the original thread it actually does state that it destroys and re-creates (Stated to have razed the earth leaving a void, etc.)

They’re not mutually exclusive at all, and other explanations should not be ignored but rather put together to form a coherent interpretation. Please take a look at all the statements and evidences provided in the energy to mass conversion thread.

I’m fine with the rejection of the 4B but dismissing the low4C by cherry picking statements without understanding the whole narrative is not necessary at all.
 
Wait what
I know jumping to 4-B sounds crazy at first glance lol. But if you look at the actual mechanics of the Unity, it's not a standard planetary explosion. The movie explicitly states it reduces the planet to a 'void with a quasar at the origin'.
It's erasing matter and information on a quantum level (which is exactly why it could instantly disintegrate Superman, who previously withstood the World Engine's subatomic destruction). Osemere's calculation isn't assuming random things; it just calculates the literal thermodynamic cost (Landauer's principle) of erasing an Earth-mass system's quantum information to turn it into that quasar state. The math for that entropy reversal directly yields 4-B.
 
I know jumping to 4-B sounds crazy at first glance lol. But if you look at the actual mechanics of the Unity, it's not a standard planetary explosion. The movie explicitly states it reduces the planet to a 'void with a quasar at the origin'.
It's erasing matter and information on a quantum level (which is exactly why it could instantly disintegrate Superman, who previously withstood the World Engine's subatomic destruction). Osemere's calculation isn't assuming random things; it just calculates the literal thermodynamic cost (Landauer's principle) of erasing an Earth-mass system's quantum information to turn it into that quasar state. The math for that entropy reversal directly yields 4-B.
Oh I remember, just surprised it got accepted
 
Wait did the above calculation get accepted or are we calling the rest Low 4-C and leaving it there
 
Wait did the above calculation get accepted or are we calling the rest Low 4-C and leaving it there
Currently, Low 4-C is the accepted 'safe' low-end for the Mother Boxes. However, the 4-B calculation is being proposed as the true high-end, precisely because of the quantum erasure feats (like scaling above the World Engine's subatomic destruction that Superman withstood). We shouldn't just leave it at Low 4-C when the physics and lore of the Unity point directly to the 4-B entropy reversal. So the goal is to get the 4-B end officially evaluated and accepted.
 
Currently, Low 4-C is the accepted 'safe' low-end for the Mother Boxes. However, the 4-B calculation is being proposed as the true high-end, precisely because of the quantum erasure feats (like scaling above the World Engine's subatomic destruction that Superman withstood). We shouldn't just leave it at Low 4-C when the physics and lore of the Unity point directly to the 4-B entropy reversal. So the goal is to get the 4-B end officially evaluated and accepted.
Ah ok, In that case I’d recommend tagging a few of the CGM’s to help out
 
the calculation isn’t the problem, or the potential contention with staff, it’s the method. With the 4-C being granted this seems a bit unnecessary.
 
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