Endeavor vs All Might (My Hero Academia) (5-5-0)

[MANOFGOD7]

This is partially true.
Shiggy being in a “state of confusion” which made him perform poorly initially is complete headcanon and suggested nowhere in the series.
Endeavor concluded that Shigaraki’s initial showcases of strength at the beginning of the fight were indicative of him being relative to All Might if they were the result of natural strength and not quirks.
This means Shigaraki was performing at a level comparable to All Might regardless of if you think he was confused or not.
After the initial sequence the fight was very, very short.
Endeavor managed to graze him with a mixture of fire attacks, but as we’ve all said, weakened All Might is superior to endeavor. It’s hard for him to tag All Might, but as have been referenced in the story time and time again, All Might is a knucklehead who charges head first into battle.
Tomura was fighting in a defense way, trying to get Deku and run away. All might won’t do that against Endeavor.

This is totally true my friend.

At the Jaku hospital scene, we could clearly SEE that AFO's voice was actively having Shiggy's attention. In short, Shiggy wasn't totally paying attention during the fight over there, and at the moment where he caught up with Deku, Endeavor pretty much was unable to land anything or even dodge without Shiggy being restrained or held back in some way by the other characters, and that is the version of Shiggy which was compared to WAM, quirks erased and so all that he was doing was by base strength.

I see what you are doing. Trying to use the "All Might charges head on without much thinking" argument to give Endeavor the W isn't going to work for him, because it's not like Endeavor's attacks are getting through. All Might is not just going to stand there to tank Endeavor's attacks, that is not in his character.

Is there a crt for this or what?
Even outside of the Garaki statement, we have legitimate feats of the Nomu’s performing on similar level to Shigaraki, who is stated WAM level. HEN are WAM level, end of story.

No there's no CRT for this, but it has been discussed many times in the MHA General forum.
Whether HEN are WAM lvl or not, it's not like Endeavor wins against WAM.

For starters, this is Hell’s curtain which is just a large blanket of fire, not an attack like flashfire fist which is more force based.

Which pretty much makes it dispersable for All Might with his movements alone

Secondly, this is the scene of Endeavor clashing with air canon.

.....and Endeavor got overpowered. Meanwhile, we have AFO saying that this same quirk powerful enough to overpower Endeavor is not strong enough to overpower EMBERS WAM in season 3 of MHA

This shit ain’t happen in the manga gng.

DW, it's still secondary cannon, just the animators showing us how AM would solo in such a fight.

“Shiggy wasn’t trying” him mocking endeavor isn’t proof of him holding back. That’s idiotic.
Endeavor got slammed by an All Might level fighter and immediately got back into action. This doesn’t prove what you think it does.

Shiggy really wasn't trying against Endeavor, especially considering what he did to Aizawa, TWICE.
It isn't proof of him holding back, but it's proof that he does not view Endeavor as a big threat, once again, especially when we consider how he was acting towards Aizawa.

I believe Endeavor was just getting weaker and weaker throughout the fight. Big attacks take a lot out of him, this is stated and shown. It doesn’t help that he was using flashfire to chase down Shigaraki throughout the city.

Which pretty much means that AM's weakness is not the only one going to get exploited.

Endeavor wasn’t “paralyzed” he was recoiling from pain. Even All Might reacts to being punched by a Nomu. Even Shigaraki reacts to being punched by Endeavor.
Endeavor tanked an air canon to the face from Shigaraki, enduring being slammed into the ground, got kicked twice, and got back up.
All Might isn’t knocking him out.

Doesn't matter how it's described, Endeavor couldn't IMMEDIATELY stand up because of that hit. All Might won't spare him after slamming him down.
He didn't tank air cannon, it overpowered him. I don't remember him getting kicked even once, can you show them??
Any good hit to the head and AM knocks him out cold, like with this smash.

Because All Might’s a knuckle head.
It’s in character, and shown, that he literally just charges in without a care in the world.
If Endeavor fires off a prominence burn off right I deadass believe All Might would try to California smash ts just to get vaporized.

I have already explained this part. He doesn't charge in without care, he charges in expecting his brute force and overwhelming strength to do the work for him, and it's going to work for him against Endeavor.
If Endeavor fires off a PB, the California Smash would disperse it. Don't know why you think AM isn't matching the force of a prominence burn when he's stronger.

 

[Metalballrun]

Endeavor's only wincon is landing a direct, point blank Prominence Burn.

Everyone scales to Deku's feat by virtue of Weakened All Might but not everyone scales equally to it.
Endeavor is canonically weaker in all aspects to All Might and Hood, and needed to go beyond his limits to beat the latter (with Hawks' help too).
It only took a handful of attacks from Tomura combined with Flashfire use to tire Endeavor out whilst All Might can take attacks of his strength level by the dozens or hundreds.

I'd give Endeavor a 4/10 chance of landing a Prominence Burn and that's pretty generous.

Vote goes for All Might.

 

[MANOFGOD7]

They both scale to the same value but Endeavor has harmed stronger Nomu (and opponents in general) compared to Weakened All Might

As I initially said, the nomu scaling is not as reliable as it seems.

Endeavor could directly clash with said Air Cannon in the same fight

Endeavor not only has never been treated as a mid tier fighter in the series (he's the Number 2 pro hero for Christ's sake and was Number 1 for quite some time), but he doesn't chain scale from Nomu since he clashed with, could tear apart, and defeated Hood who was objectively stated to be stronger than the USJ Nomu

You can maybe argue that the chain scaling for other characters is suspicious but Endeavor has been treated as a top tier in-universe for a while.

.....and Endeavor got overpowered. Meanwhile, we have AFO saying that this same quirk powerful enough to overpower Endeavor is not strong enough to overpower EMBERS WAM in season 3 of MHA

Yeah Endeavor is top-tier in MHA, not god-tier. Reminder that Endeavor needed a lot of help in the speed department to catch up to Hood, because he was slower. How's he gonna close the speed gap when Hawks doesn't help him here?? I know WAM is not blitzing levels above Endeavor but he can still outspeed him like Shiggy did.

In the same link you sent, Endeavor dodges Shiggy's attack point-blank despite not seeing it coming and assuming Shiggy was trapped
He also directly clashed with Air Cannon
He also sent Shiggy flying, twice
The only reason why Shiggy was doing so well is because he can regenerate from the burns. WAM can't do this. Blowing away the flames didn't prevent Shiggy from regularly accumulating burns, despite having a much better way to blow them away compared to All Might
It's pretty clear that Endeavor directly scales to WAM-level fighters. Shiggy was directly compared to WAM as well as a High-End Nomu, and Endeavor has beaten and broken the bones of multiple High End Nomus
The only reason why Endeavor struggled against ANY of the WAM level fighters he's actually fought is because of Super Regeneration preventing his burn damage (and just... damage in general) from sticking. WAM doesn't have this. In fact, he has a massive injury on his left ribcage, which is something Endeavor can easily exploit

Endeavor was a good distance away from Shiggy at that moment, so there was enough time to react.

I don't remember Shiggy getting burned unless Endeavor directly hit him, can you show me??

Yeahhhh.........no, their attack ranges are quite the same, they are both in tens of kilometers.

WAM doesn't have regen, but he has wind pressure which carries him to victory

The nomus didn't have that, so they couldn't counter his attacks well.

Endeavor only exploits AM if he can land a hit first(he can't), and remember that AM isn't the only one to be losing proficiency over time

except All Might doesn't have Super Regeneration so he just gets baked

Shiggy has significantly higher pain tolerance and stamina compared to Weakened All Might so he was able to handle the flames, and once Aizawa was taken out of the picture he regenerated instantly

All Might can't afford to facetank these hits and the burn damage without suffering severe time loss on his transformation, and if you argue that All Might uses Plus Ultra willpower boost to force the timer to last longer, Endeavor has the same amp that allows him to fight at full power despite missing half his torso and his arm, and fought Dabi under the same conditions. Endeavor's stamina is objectively better than All Mights here

if All Might tries knocking him down he's getting a flamethrower to the face. In the miraculous situation where he manages to knock him down despite the flamethrower to his face, he's getting another flamethrower to the face. If he dodges it (which he has to) then he's no longer pinning Endeavor down and the cycle repeats. It's really that simple

Gets baked when an attack lands, but how's the attack landing again??

Endeavor said his endurance(pain tolerance) is the same as AM's own.

AM is not going to try to tank anything, it's not in his character to do so. I agree that Endeavor has stamina, but it's not really helping either.

AM successfully knocks him down, just like the AM lvl Shiggy did. But unlike Shiggy, AM isn't going to step on him after he has knocked him down, he'll give him a free trip to the stratosphere.

This smash is also something dangerous for Endeavor.

 

[MANOFGOD7]

Still with Enji

So how Enji finna hit him??

 

[Metalballrun]

Yeah I've read in this thread that Enji has better mobility and maneuverability, but does he really?

We again reference how Tomura outpaced Endeavor in the skies and dodged a large AOE Prominence Burn by moving through the air with sheer force, prompting Enji to compare him to All Might.

We can presume that Endeavor can match that if he uses the Phoenix Wings inspired by Hawks but it's not something Enji uses as a first move. In theory, having heat propellers makes his flight more reliable but All Might moving through the air seems just as mobile anyways.

And yeah, All Might does dodge.

FWIW I think both of them would mostly remain on the ground while fighting. Endeavor only flies around when necessary and so does All Might.