Fusion Multiplier (DBZ, DBS, etc.)

[ComicCalc]

Formula(s):
Fusion is given multiple canonical formulas:
1. A * B
2. (A + B) * C
3. (A + B) * 10 * D
However, because D is canonically 2-9 (数十 = several tens (20-99)), formula 3, by resulting in no more than 198x fusee, contradicts canonical scaling: (Vegito DBZ > SSJ3 (400x) Goku, Gogeta > SSB Goku).

assuming both fusees are equal in power (A = B),
let C = A/2,
then A * B = (A + B) * C

Therefore, there exists a choice of the unspecified constant, C, for which two of the canonical expressions are equivalent; as such, the formulas are mathematically compatible and need not be treated as mutually exclusive, with C varying by fusee power level.

Application:
Now that we've established the fusion formula(s). Let's apply them.

Fusion = A * B.
If A = 2 and B = 2. A fusee gets 2 times stronger when fusing, but if both are three, a fusee gets 3 times stronger. Therefore we must use proper units, the canon ones. The dreaded power levels. The latest knowable one is 150 million, given everyone is far above that now, we'll use it as a baseline, treating the fusion as a constant fusee multiplier of 150 million.

Current SSG mult accounts only for the fusion's transformations (160k), not the fusion itself: 150mil * 160k = 24 Trillion.
Subsequent forms' multipliers change accordingly.

In conclusion, buff the following Speeds:

• Vegito DBZ: 150000000 * (0.00125 * 3 Universes & 2,173,663,541.6 c) = 187500 * 3 Universes & 326 Quadrillion c
• Goku DBS Anime (BoG - RoF): 24 Trillion * (0.0025 * 3 & 3,260,495,312.4 c) * 2 = 120 Billion * 3 Universes & 156.5 Sextillion c
• Goku DBS Anime ("Future" Trunks Saga): 150mil * (6.4 Billion * 3 Universes & 1.892 Nonillion c) = 960 Quadrillion * 3 Universes & 283.8 Undecillion c
• Vegito DBS and Goku DBS Anime (Universal Survival Saga) and Gohan (Super Hero): 150mil * (512 Quadrillion * 3 Universes & 151.36 Undecillion c) = 76.8 Septillion * 3 Universes & 22.704 Quattuordecillion c
• Vegeta DBS Anime: same as Goku (minus Battle of Gods)
• All respective Goku and Vegita transformations Speed must change accordingly

Note: Only Speed will change in the profiles. AP work shown will only change in the Dragon Ball Anime: Statistical Ratings.

 

[DragoZeroNova]

....what is actually being changed and how? Like, some numbers please?

 

[Lilybitdun]

We don't let finite multipliers increase the amount of infinite sized universes the character can destroy

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Tiering_System_FAQ#Q:_How_do_multipliers_affect_Tier_2_and_Tier_1_ratings?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

That's not how it works by the look of it...

 

[Flashlight237]

If this were the Outskirts Battledome, it would be just as easy as you say it would be to handle multiversal stats since they did things linearly, but here in Vs Battles Wiki? Yeah, no. I don't make the rules. I just follow whatever logic these powerscaling websites want me to follow. I'm too jaded to follow any one site's ruleset like a gospel these days, which will keep me from achieving any staff position on here besides "math man."

 

[Robo432343]

We don't let finite multipliers increase the amount of infinite sized universes the character can destroy

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Tiering_System_FAQ#Q:_How_do_multipliers_affect_Tier_2_and_Tier_1_ratings?

This should be included in our multipliers page, not just the FAQ

 

[ComicCalc]

We don't let finite multipliers increase the amount of infinite sized universes the character can destroy

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Tiering_System_FAQ#Q:_How_do_multipliers_affect_Tier_2_and_Tier_1_ratings?

Fixed

 

[ItsMeat]

I will comment later with all the stuff I have in mind, but first I must point out the problems with your interptetation of the scans:

1. A * B

First, what's the source for this scan?

Also, I asked AI to translate the scan and it seems like the × isn't for a multiplier, but rather for their combination, like the × in Spy×Family.

2. (A + B) * C

This one is actually fine

3. (A + B) * 10^D

Tens of times doesn't mean 10^D, it means 10*D. So, basically, D = C/10, not log(C).

 

[ComicCalc]

First, what's the source for this scan?

Dragon Ball Super Exciting Guide page 63.

Also, I asked AI to translate the scan and it seems like the × isn't for a multiplier, but rather for their combination, like the × in Spy×Family.

Doesn't explain the equal sign or the text: The power up owing to the merger is not the sum of their two battle powers, but something as amazing as "multiplication"!

Tens of times doesn't mean 10^D, it means 10*D. So, basically, D = C/10, not log(C).

Fixed

 

[Xdsagecat]

Oh this is so gonna get sent to the staff channel, or end in 5+ pages of debates.

Anyway following

 

[Firestorm808]

Fusion is given multiple canonical formulas:
1. A * B
2. (A + B) * C
3. (A + B) * 10 * D
However, because the constants aren't defined, they aren't mutually exclusive.

assuming both fusees are equal in power (A = B),
let C = A/2, and D = C/10,
then A * B = (A + B) * C = (A + B) * 10 * D

To clarify, it all just comes back to A*B or A^2 if the two people are equal.

Essentially, an exponential increase in speed?

 

[Robo432343]

shouldn't this be closed for breaking multiplier rules

 

[ComicCalc]

shouldn't this be closed for breaking multiplier rules

Fixed. Only Speed affected.

 

[ComicCalc]

To clarify, it all just comes back to A*B or A^2 if the two people are equal.

Essentially, an exponential increase in speed?

In theory, it would be exponential, but we don't have power levels past namek. Therefore, in practice 150 mil (highest knowable, everyone's surpassed).

 

[ItsMeat]

Dragon Ball Super Exciting Guide page 63.

Found the translations online, couldn't find the full scans though.

Doesn't explain the equal sign

The combination of Goku and Vegeta is Vegito is pretty straightforward. "Goku×Vegeta=Vegito" is just saying what the product of their combination is.

or the text: The power up owing to the merger is not the sum of their two battle powers, but something as amazing as "multiplication"!

Yes, it says their power is multiplied, but it doesn't say what the other factor of the multiplication is.

Saying it's one's power lvl × the other's power lvl is basically saying:

A×B = (A+B)×C (C<100, due to it being tens, not hundreds/thousands/whatever of times).

Assuming A=B (becasue base Goku and Vegeta are basucally equal for most of DBZ, including the Buu saga which is what the scan is reffering to), you'd have A² < A×200. See the problem?

Basically all the scans are saying the same thing: the fusion multiplier is basically (A+B) multiplied by C, with C<100.

Fixed

 

[ComicCalc]

Yes, it says their power is multiplied, but it doesn't say what the other factor of the multiplication is.

saying × isnt for a multiplier ignores the multiplicative context of the scan. They give us an equation right after saying their power is multiplied.

C<100, due to it being tens, not hundreds/thousands/whatever of times

You're right, Japanese has distinct lexical expressions for tens/hundreds/thousands:

• 十 = ten
• 数十 = several tens (20-90)
• 百 = hundred
• 数百 = several hundreds
• 千 = thousand
• 数千 = several thousands

However, a 180 (90*2) times multiplier cap would contradict established Statistical Ratings (Vegito DBZ > SSJ3 (400x) Goku, Vegito DBS > SSBKKx10 Goku, Gogeta > SSB Goku).

Fixed.

 

[Damage3245]

Feels like this should be the jokes sub-forum.

 

[Robo432343]

Feels like this should be the jokes sub-forum.

It’s just a new user

 

[ComicCalc]

Feels like this should be the jokes sub-forum.

It’s just a new user

I'd appreciate more specific criticisms.

 

[Damage3245]

I'd appreciate more specific criticisms.

There has already been a DB CRT to axe stacking together multipliers to ridiculous levels that don't have any support in the series. How can we tell that it is reliable for the characters to have speed ratings in the Quattuordecillion c level? Where are the supporting feats, calcs or statements for this massive extrapolation?

 

[ComicCalc]

There has already been a DB CRT to axe stacking together multipliers to ridiculous levels that don't have any support in the series. How can we tell that it is reliable for the characters to have speed ratings in the Quattuordecillion c level? Where are the supporting feats, calcs or statements for this massive extrapolation?

I'm using the accepted statistical ratings, most of the things you're asking for can be found there.

However, fusion mult is unknown and thus ignored when deriving SSG mult. I'm using canonical equations to derive a baseline for fusion mult: highest knowable power level beneath fusee's.

SSG = Fusion * Forms
Original Calc:
1 * (400*400)
New Calc:
150mil * (400*400)

 

[Peter1129]

saying × isnt for a multiplier ignores the multiplicative context of the scan. They give us an equation right after saying their power is multiplied.

You're right, Japanese has distinct lexical expressions for tens/hundreds/thousands:

• 十 = ten
• 数十 = several tens (20-90)
• 百 = hundred
• 数百 = several hundreds
• 千 = thousand
• 数千 = several thousands

However, a 180 (90*2) times multiplier cap would contradict established Statistical Ratings (Vegito DBZ > SSJ3 (400x) Goku, Vegito DBS > SSBKKx10 Goku, Gogeta > SSB Goku).

Fixed.

Tens of times is actually 20-99 but yeah not too big of a difference.

Also it honestly seems more to me that fusion multiplier takes into account Fusee A and Fusee B at their strongest rather than their base. It doesn't really make much sense otherwise with how the base fusions are almost always treated as being massively above the individual fusees strongest forms.

 

[E1iminxtion]

i might be wrong but i remember seeing a discussion on dragon ball speed and how bunk it is because of the amount of multiplier stacking people use to get to these numbers, with no feats or calculations in between. like they’re getting to whateverdecillion times the speed of light off of 1 or 2 calcs that are nowhere near that, and just using multipliers to justify it. idk where that went though or what the consensus was

 

[Random-Helper323]

Such a multiplier is far too large to index with no feat back it up, and treating fusion as being that big of an amp introduces its own problems.

 

[ComicCalc]

Such a multiplier is far too large to index with no feat back it up, and treating fusion as being that big of an amp introduces its own problems.

What problems?

 

[Random-Helper323]

What problems?

The proposal leading to growing power levels resulting in ever growing multipliers, to name probably the worst one.

 

[ComicCalc]

Such a multiplier is far too large to index with no feat back it up

150 mil is the latest knowable power lvl beneath their bases.

The proposal leading to growing power levels resulting in ever growing multipliers

This is backed by: Fusion being insufficient for Beerus thus < SSG, then fusion being > SSB in DBS broly.
The fusion multiplier is growing in at least some capacity. I'm merely using Super Exciting Guide's as well as DBS Broly's provided formulas:
1. A * B
2. (A + B) * C

 

[ComicCalc]

i might be wrong but i remember seeing a discussion on manga dragon ball speed and how bunk it is because of the amount of multiplier stacking people use to get to these numbers, with no feats or calculations in between. like they’re getting to whateverdecillion times the speed of light off of 1 or 2 calcs that are nowhere near that, and just using multipliers to justify it. idk where that went though or what the consensus was

Feats are here:
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:StarShooter80/Dragon_Ball_Anime:_Statistical_Ratings
Whether some are bunk or not is irrelevant to deriving the fusion multiplier which as it stands is 1x.
I aim to change that using the canonical fusion formulas to derive a baseline.

 

[ComicCalc]

Tens of times is actually 20-99 but yeah not too big of a difference.

Fixed

Also it honestly seems more to me that fusion multiplier takes into account Fusee A and Fusee B at their strongest rather than their base. It doesn't really make much sense otherwise with how the base fusions are almost always treated as being massively above the individual fusees strongest forms.

"almost always" is key as SSG was above fusion in BoG. The fusion multiplier I'm proposing is derived from Super Exciting Guide: A * B

 

[Remus1998]

Such a multiplier is far too large to index with no feat back it up, and treating fusion as being that big of an amp introduces its own problems.

483.2 sexdecillion/(118.25 sextillion^2) = 34556092.4154

i.e. multiplying the BOG speed feat by itself would still leave you 34 MILLION TIMES SLOWER then the highest speed value in the DBS blog

 

[Peter1129]

Fixed

"almost always" is key as SSG was above fusion in BoG. The fusion multiplier I'm proposing is derived from Super Exciting Guide: A * B

Honestly fusion being inferior to SSG was probably because at the time their strongest forms were only SS2 and SS3 respectively. Which actually further supports the idea that fusion takes into account the fusees at their strongest. As after they unlocked the god transformations, fusion has since been treated as superior to god transformations.

 

[ComicCalc]

Honestly fusion being inferior to SSG was probably because at the time their strongest forms were only SS2 and SS3 respectively. Which actually further supports the idea that fusion takes into account the fusees at their strongest. As after they unlocked the god transformations, fusion has since been treated as superior to god transformations.

You're right that if the fusion multiplier scales from the fusees' strongest transformations, it would be internally consistent. However, it's not the only internally consistent interpretation. A multiplier based on the fusees' power level is just as consistent, and it's the interpretation exclusively supported by the Super Exciting Guide.