Gotta Revise 'Em All, Part 2 (Clover Edition): Mainline Game Scaling

[Imaginym]

I don’t remember if this was addressed in the other thread, but where are the human characters scaling to now? From what I can see on the profiles basically all the justifications for them come from either Origins or the main anime. You can probably still get durability scaling from Legends Arceus, but are there any AP feats? Maybe there’s something in Twilight Wings, Hisuian Snow or Paldean Winds (I assume these are still useable for mainline scaling purposes) but I don’t remember.

AP feats to scale the humans to what?

 

[Ghengiroo115]

AP feats to scale the humans to what?

Just AP feats in general, not for any specific level. They don’t really have anything to go off in the games, even humans known to be noticeably strong like Sabrina mainly get their scaling elsewhere.

You could maybe scale martial artists to their durability based on them training with their Pokémon and them probably fighting other martial artists (also would give them FTL combat speed), however the latter argument kinda doesn’t work with the Lance scene given that would make every martial artist scale to the Tower Duo and their trios. I’m also not sure if that kind of argument is even allowed, and even if that argument had no flaws that would only apply to martial artists and no-one else.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I know Bea famously spars with a Machamp in Twilight Wings, if that helps

 

[omegabronic]

I know Bea famously spars with a Machamp in Twilight Wings, if that helps

yeah, but at same time, can we really scale all trainers to her?

 

[CloverDragon03]

yeah, but at same time, can we really scale all trainers to her?

No, given that she's notably a martial artist and all. I mean, at best you could maybe argue other Trainers aren't too inferior to her, but either way it was something worth mentioning imo

 

[Ghengiroo115]

I know Bea famously spars with a Machamp in Twilight Wings, if that helps

Yup, I remembered it being more one-sided but watching the episode again she did decently well (also she was exhausting herself due to excess training so she wasn’t at peak performance). She was also implied to have physically taken on a wild Rhydon alongside her Pokémon.

 

[Imaginym]

Just AP feats in general, not for any specific level. They don’t really have anything to go off in the games, even humans known to be noticeably strong like Sabrina mainly get their scaling elsewhere.

Any feats...?

Well, there's statements, IIRC.
If my memory serves, Korrina has a statements about being able to break rocks.

Korrina - Bulbapedia, the community-driven Pokémon encyclopedia

bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net

Spoiler: Long excerpt

April: "Hello! It's time for Gym Freaks, your source for the hottest news about hot Gym Leaders in Kalos. So... I'm now in front of the Shalour City Gym! ... Eeek. Korrina has arrived! She's cute! So cute! The way she dresses up in costume-like clothing makes my heart go crazy! Lately, Korrina has been in the PR Video Studio! Following two years of planning and another year of shooting, her highly anticipated new PR Video is scheduled for release at the end of next year! Oh... She went inside the Gym... That's all for the on-site report. Good-bye for now, everyone."
April: "Hello! It's time for Gym Freaks, your source for the hottest news about hot Gym Leaders in Kalos. So... I'm now in front of the Shalour City Gym! ... Eeek. Korrina has arrived! She's cute! So cute! The way she dresses up in costumes make my heart beat pit-a-pat! Her legs are so magnificent that her axe-kick move can shatter cave rocks into pieces! If I were her, I wouldn't need the HM. Oh... She went inside the Gym... That's all for the on-site report. Good-bye for now, everyone."

Drayden also has an impressive Stamina statement thanks to the in-game media thingy called National Gymquirer:

Drayden - Bulbapedia, the community-driven Pokémon encyclopedia

bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net

Spoiler: Another long excerpt

Pokémon Black 2 and White 2​

Jingle: "Woo hoo! All right! It's 'The National Gymquirer'!"Page: "That's right! We collect the hottest gossip about Gym Leaders seen around town! Here is today's letter. From someone going by the name Opelucitizen. Thank yooou! 'Drayden is a man among men who puts himself on the line to protect the people living in our city. He always gives his all, even in training. According to his training schedule I just happened upon, he does:'
1. 10,000 sit-ups
2. 10,000 push-ups
3. 10,000 squats
Isn't that outrageous?' Huh... How old is that guy anyway? 'The National Gymquirer'! We eagerly await your letters!"

Marlon has a statement/feat, although IDK if it succeeds our KE standards, since it involves him jumping out of the water at high speeds.

Spoiler: Verbose

National Gymquirer​

Jingle: "Woo hoo! All right! It's 'The National Gymquirer'!"
Page: "That's right! We collect the hottest gossip about Gym Leaders seen around town! Here is today's letter. From someone going by the name MisterFisher! Thank yooou! 'Marlon was swimming the other day, and he just kept going faster until he shot out of the water and into the sky! That swimming style could completely dominate the world of swimming.' Hm... That is amazing, but nobody else can do that. Actually, can you even call jumping into the sky swimming? 'The National Gymquirer'! We eagerly await your letters!"

Bea & probably 1 other Black Belt or other such martial artist has a feat of training with their Pokemon.
Professor Kukui studies Pokemon moves, often by being hit by them himself.

Anime Brycen has a feat of splitting a boulder in two.

There's a Black Belt NPC in Hoenn who says he breaks boulders with his fist.
Another Black Belt, IIRC, in the Sevii Islands regularly swims around an island every morning.

I actually posted some of that stuff in a blog... [finds blog & checks date] on June 13th, 2018.

In R/S/E (& probably OR/AS), Brendan & May can survive falling down the holes in Sky Pillar. & even earlier, on May 27th, 2018, I calced that (along with an anime feat.) into a blog.

There's a few other Black Belt feats I didn't mention in there.
Finding scans of talking to Preston in R/B/Y post-battling him (He's a Psychic in Sabrina's Gym, the blog has scans of his pre-battle dialogue & location.) would also help support Telepathy for Pokemon World Human Psychis.

Also, G/S/C Chuck has a feat of picking up & tossing a boulder, which shatters/disappears upon landing atop a statue.
In HG/SS he's just meditating under a small, manmade waterfall fueled by a wooden device.

You could maybe scale martial artists to their durability based on them training with their Pokémon and them probably fighting other martial artists (also would give them FTL combat speed), however the latter argument kinda doesn’t work with the Lance scene given that would make every martial artist scale to the Tower Duo and their trios. I’m also not sure if that kind of argument is even allowed, and even if that argument had no flaws that would only apply to martial artists and no-one else.

I'd hesitate to call a grunt surviving a champion level Pokemon legit. Does that grunt have any dialogue or role following being attacked?


Anyway, hopefully this is interesting &/or appreciable.

 

[Ghengiroo115]

So I have potentially three more things related to human AP scaling (and also something to do with human durability scaling):

1. Ghetsis in USUM held Lillie hostage and threatened to kill her if the protag didn’t stand down. His Pokémon were already knocked out at this point and there was no hint towards any potential weapon, so I would assume he was gonna kill her with his bare hands. Of course this brings up the very big issue of this seemingly average old dude scaling to Lugia (assuming we went that route with their durability), however that brings me to my second point.
2. It’s repeatedly stated by the Galaxy Team in PLA that Pokémon are dangerous, and it’s even suggested that the protag could die in their first mission. All Pokémon are portrayed as threats in-game and iirc no mid or final-stage Pokémon are involved with said first mission, so that would suggest that not all humans have the same level of durability as Bea or the Rocket Grunt that took a hit from Lance’s Dragonite. Furthermore the PLA protag is implied to be getting stronger during the game, as they go from first stages to Nobles to the Creation Trio to Arceus. Since AP can also be noticeably increased by martial artists I think it would be fair to say that not all characters have equal durability. Now this brings a different issue to the Ghetsis stuff, but I’ll bring that up after my next point.
3. This is also partly a question, but is Colosseum and XD stuff allowed for mainline scaling? The reason I ask is because I vaguely remember instances of humans harming other humans in the game. We could potentially get more human scaling from those games if it’s allowed and my memory isn’t failing me.

So the new issue with the Ghetsis argument is that Lillie is both 4 years younger than the PLA protag and is portrayed as relatively fragile compared to other characters, so I’m not sure if she would even be able to scale to any Pokémon in this case. She was also scared to save Nebby from some bird Pokémon at the beginning the game, which further supports the “not all durability is equal thing” but also gives more question of if she should scale or not. Idk, what does everyone else think?

 

[Imaginym]

So I have potentially three more things related to human AP scaling (and also something to do with human durability scaling):

1. Ghetsis in USUM held Lillie hostage and threatened to kill her if the protag didn’t stand down. His Pokémon were already knocked out at this point and there was no hint towards any potential weapon, so I would assume he was gonna kill her with his bare hands. Of course this brings up the very big issue of this seemingly average old dude scaling to Lugia (assuming we went that route with their durability), however that brings me to my second point.

Why would threatening Lillie scale him to Lugia?

1. It’s repeatedly stated by the Galaxy Team in PLA that Pokémon are dangerous, and it’s even suggested that the protag could die in their first mission. All Pokémon are portrayed as threats in-game and iirc no mid or final-stage Pokémon are involved with said first mission, so that would suggest that not all humans have the same level of durability as Bea or the Rocket Grunt that took a hit from Lance’s Dragonite. Furthermore the PLA protag is implied to be getting stronger during the game, as they go from first stages to Nobles to the Creation Trio to Arceus. Since AP can also be noticeably increased by martial artists I think it would be fair to say that not all characters have equal durability. Now this brings a different issue to the Ghetsis stuff, but I’ll bring that up after my next point.

FWIW, part of the fear does come from how misunderstood Pokemon seem, with Pokemon trainers & Pokemon catching & humans generally forming friendships with Pokemon being uncommon at that era.
Also, does anyone have the footage of the Grunt who took a hit from Lance's Dragonite? I'd like to check it?

Could also be that the PLA Protagonist is just exceptionally durable, especially after their training (As Black Belts & others can evidently get stronger, though apparently Protag just gets stronger at ridiculously high rates??) compared to other humans?

1. This is also partly a question, but is Colosseum and XD stuff allowed for mainline scaling? The reason I ask is because I vaguely remember instances of humans harming other humans in the game. We could potentially get more human scaling from those games if it’s allowed and my memory isn’t failing me.

I'm also curious about this.
One concern is that Colosseum & XD are developed primarily by Genius Sorority, & I'm not sure how much, if any involvement GF have in them.

So the new issue with the Ghetsis argument is that Lillie is both 4 years younger than the PLA protag and is portrayed as relatively fragile compared to other characters, so I’m not sure if she would even be able to scale to any Pokémon in this case. She was also scared to save Nebby from some bird Pokémon at the beginning the game, which further supports the “not all durability is equal thing” but also gives more question of if she should scale or not. Idk, what does everyone else think?

FWIW, were the Spearow not attacking her?
Also, would there be some blast radius or AoE thing going on with how Nebby's Teleport explosion which destroyed parts of the bridge may not have hurt her? (Maybe double check her cutscene behaviour, appearance &/or dialogue about that?)

 

[omegabronic]

Tbh, i never really understood why we scaled all trainers to each other, it isn't like there is any "minimum power" that a char needs to fill to become a trainer

 

[Ghengiroo115]

Why would threatening Lillie scale him to Lugia?

Ah, sorry for not specifying. It would be using the assumption that every human scales to that Rocket member, since Lance’s Pokémon scale to the Tower Duo in Gen 2.

FWIW, part of the fear does come from how misunderstood Pokemon seem, with Pokemon trainers & Pokemon catching & humans generally forming friendships with Pokemon being uncommon at that era.

I think it was implied that Pokémon had hurt people before, but I don’t remember for sure so maybe it is just paranoia or something.

Also, does anyone have the footage of the Grunt who took a hit from Lance's Dragonite? I'd like to check it?

Here it is in both the original games and the remakes (At 43:30). It should also be noted that the Rocket Grunt is disguised as a Black Belt here, though I’m not sure if that accurately reflects their strength or if it’s entirely just a disguise.

FWIW, were the Spearow not attacking her?
Also, would there be some blast radius or AoE thing going on with how Nebby's Teleport explosion which destroyed parts of the bridge may not have hurt her? (Maybe double check her cutscene behaviour, appearance &/or dialogue about that?)

Lillie wasn’t on the bridge, although the protag was and was taking hits from the Spearow for Nebby so that’s a durability feat for them. That also means they were the closest to the epicentre of Nebby’s explosion, however since they weren’t shown to be affected by it at all I don’t think Nebby was trying to harm them with it.

 

[Ghengiroo115]

Tbh, i never really understood why we scaled all trainers to each other, it isn't like there is any "minimum power" that a char needs to fill to become a trainer

I think it was because in the anime and stuff “regular” people were consistently shown taking hits from varying levels of Pokémon, so the assumption was just that “oh, all regular people probably scale at a baseline”. In the games only though there seems to be varying levels of durability based on the general strength of the characters.

 

[Imaginym]

Ah, sorry for not specifying. It would be using the assumption that every human scales to that Rocket member, since Lance’s Pokémon scale to the Tower Duo in Gen 2.

Presumably because you need to beat Lance to become Champion Level & we assume the Legendaries are such...?
(Although, IIRC, I think Ho-Oh & Lugia can be encountered BEFORE becoming Champion.)

I think it was implied that Pokémon had hurt people before, but I don’t remember for sure so maybe it is just paranoia or something.

Could be worth checking. They do definitely treat expeditions with gravitas, & the player can be blacked out at the least by attacks.

Here it is in both the original games and the remakes (At 43:30). It should also be noted that the Rocket Grunt is disguised as a Black Belt here, though I’m not sure if that accurately reflects their strength or if it’s entirely just a disguise.

Thanks!

Lillie wasn’t on the bridge, although the protag was and was taking hits from the Spearow for Nebby so that’s a durability feat for them. That also means they were the closest to the epicentre of Nebby’s explosion, however since they weren’t shown to be affected by it at all I don’t think Nebby was trying to harm them with it.

I'm not sure Nebby's intent would be as relevant (Especially if it's early game & I'm not sure it was supposed to be that adept with its powers.) when there was still destruction nonetheless & Pokemon world humans do often get 9-C or 9-B Durability via feats, right?

In the games only though there seems to be varying levels of durability based on the general strength of the characters.

Other than training with their Pokemon, yeah.

Although, I think there may be some... feats by proxy/statements for Pokemon Trainers, IIRC, at least for abilities, going off entries for Pokemon like... I think Muk & Alakazam? (Ex: About the stench & headaches.)

IIRC, Phanpy warns about how it "can send you flying", but IDK if the Japanese version uses such phrasing, & IDK if survival is meant to be implied with that.

Could be worth consulting other sorts of entries of that sort & looking into other trainers who train with Pokemon.

(& also Kukui who survives Pokemon moves for his research.)

 

[Ghengiroo115]

Presumably because you need to beat Lance to become Champion Level & we assume the Legendaries are such...?
(Although, IIRC, I think Ho-Oh & Lugia can be encountered BEFORE becoming Champion.)

In the remakes you’re required to fight Ho-Oh/Lugia before taking on the league, and iirc you can choose to encounter them before the league in the originals too.

Could be worth checking. They do definitely treat expeditions with gravitas, & the player can be blacked out at the least by attacks.

Yeah I do think someone should check to make sure. I can maybe look tomorrow, but I can’t until then because I’ve gotta go sleep soon and it’ll take a little while to look.

I'm not sure Nebby's intent would be as relevant (Especially if it's early game & I'm not sure it was supposed to be that adept with its powers.) when there was still destruction nonetheless & Pokemon world humans do often get 9-C or 9-B Durability via feats, right?

I was thinking moreso that it selectively chose not to harm the protag, but yeah it doesn’t have much control over its powers so thinking about it it probably wouldn’t be able to do that. I don’t think it matters much either way though.

 

[Ghengiroo115]

Tbh tomorrow I might start a blog on where humans and their Pokémon should scale, since there seems to be some new developments here for the humans themselves and a lot of their profiles are pretty outdated in general.

 

[Ghengiroo115]

I loosely remember some mentions of Deoxys maybe not being 5-B. Was that sorted out in the other thread or nah? If Deoxys and Mega Ray are still 5-B then should Mega Mewtwo also be 5-B, given base Mewtwo is scaling to the Weather Trio?

 

[Imaginym]

I loosely remember some mentions of Deoxys maybe not being 5-B. Was that sorted out in the other thread or nah? If Deoxys and Mega Ray are still 5-B then should Mega Mewtwo also be 5-B, given base Mewtwo is scaling to the Weather Trio?

I'm not sure how much the in-game meteor & its destruction got rated at -Dialogue & such should be checked- but could this have to do with how the meteor was said that'd it destroy the planet... in the manga continuity?

5-B could be a product of manga cross-scaling, but not 100% sure, as I don't keep up with Rayquaza's scaling chain very much.

 

[omegabronic]

Bump

 

[CloverDragon03]

I'm not sure how much the in-game meteor & its destruction got rated at -Dialogue & such should be checked- but could this have to do with how the meteor was said that'd it destroy the planet... in the manga continuity?

5-B could be a product of manga cross-scaling, but not 100% sure, as I don't keep up with Rayquaza's scaling chain very much.

I'm pretty sure a similar statement exists in the games. If not, Rayquaza and Deoxys would just scale to High 6-A off of Groudon