1. This doesn't matter when Ultra Instinct just ignores perception to dodge things anyways, not to mention GTku never uses this ever even if it did work
This is stated to be a Ki Passive. Goku doesn’t have to “Use” it. Unless you’re using Toei Ki, the information you get will be wrong.
Technically, Ultra Instinct reacting without thought/
cognitive perception is good but not perfect, as Ultra Instinct still relies
on sensory input, with “each part of the body moving and deciding for itself” based on altered cellular
processes. Even if Superku’s arm is judging independently from the brain, the arm itself is still is getting
incorrect information from its surroundings even without the brain to mess it up.
That said, considering this perception only affected Kid Goku’s sight, sound, and (MAYBE) spatial awareness (as he did not touch, taste, or smell it), it’s irrelevant. In the case here, Ultra Instinct Goku just has to close his eyes and he’ll be fine since it’s not like his arm interprets auditory or visual information.
2. The problem with this is that in order to track others's ki, you need to be able to sense
Actually, this isn’t implied at all. Popo just snags his Ki from afar because Kid Goku is leaking it, verbatim. Even if sensing mattered to do it remotely, it’s meaningless, because as long as Superku has Ki to leak, (which he
does have, ESPECIALLY if he goes into
TUI), he should be vulnerable to it, as sensing the Ki becomes irrelevant when it’s quite visibly in his face.
and interact with their ki to begin with.
…
No? God Ki isn’t “harder to interact with.” It is “harder to sense,” yes, but it has never demonstrated being hard to physically interact with against ordinary Ki.
GTku can't interact with God Ki since he can't sense it to begin with, and arguing that he can sense the presence of "nothingness" that he can't detect is never shown to be a thing he could do
He explicitly learned the skill from Mr. Popo, and
demonstrates the skill to evade Lightning.
and would be a NLF to assume he could do in this case. He failed to use this against the Androids and Super 17 who have zero ki yet still have energy,
The Androids were like, halfway across the globe. We’re talking about a fight within sight lines. Even if we’re ignoring that, all that would mean is that the Toei Androids are more un-sensible than the Canon Androids? (Obviously it’s just a Toei induced plot hole, but it doesn’t change that Goku literally has the skill and it’s built into his very applications of Ki).
TLDR as far as what the feats on his profile say, he can't tether something he straight up can't sense at all.
Again, untrue.
3. Superku's ki is unable to be sense by Moro who could sense God Ki and therefore already has layered sensing.
Layered Sensing becomes irrelevant with the Link. Again, being “harder to sense” does not make visible energy less visible or harder to interact with.
Not to mention, the stuff I said above makes it questionable whether GTku can link Superku's ki, especially since the only feat of ki linking we see on his profile is from Mr. Popo who had to stand still with his eyes closed and Goku just let him link him.
Toei Kid Goku didn’t even know what Popo was doing, and Popo verbatim says it’s because Goku was leaking Ki. This would make more sense if you were talking about Perfected SSB Goku, who EXPLICITLY DOESN’T LEAK KI, but Ultra Instinct Goku
does, (albeit not often as Perfected Ultra Instinct, whereas True Ultra Instinct is extremely bad about it). Regardless, the point remains—Nothing about Superku makes it more difficult. And even granting your point was right, it’s not like SUPERKU knows that any Ki he leaks will cause the Link, and thus cannot attempt to avoid it.
Besides, what's stopping Ultra Instinct from dodge the ki links? Superku can sense GTku just fine, and Ultra Instinct dodges literally everything
As demonstrated against Moro, when it comes to defense it interprets as beneath ability to harm, Ultra Instinct will instinctively trigger heightened defense to cause you harm instead. So I don’t imagine it evading. Additionally, Ultra Instinct’s evasion isn’t perfect, and also, are we assuming Superku just never gets hit once? Like, he’d have to constantly evade the energy of GTku.
4. The instant Goku used Hakai, Zamasu started disintegrating, and he lost half his body in an instant, and unlike Zamazu, who has High-Godly and therefore was able to survive Hakai, GTku can't replicate or survive this since he's not immortal and has no regeneration.
No one said anything about Goku surviving. I agreed from jump he would die. I’m talking about the ability to evade thanks to literally sensing Ki be
erased from existence on its way to him.
Not to mention, Zamasu using Mai as a shield is obviously going to stop Superku from using Hakai as Superku doesn't want to hurt Mai, but GTku doesn't exactly have any human meatshields lying around.
Again, wasn’t the point.
If he tries to block it with the nearby environment, Hakai is just gonna go straight through and kill him anyways.
I didn’t say block. I said evade.
You're basically saying GTku can dodge Hakai at point blank range because he can "sense the fluctuations of ki" when Ultra Instinct is just a better version of this cuz he doesn't need to go through the bullsh*t that is feeling around for ki you can't sense OR actually use your brain to dodge or move. Ultra Instinct is also stated to work offensively, so if GTku tries to dodge UI just tracks him and GTku dies anyways.
Hakai is massively energy intensive. Even with his heightened ability relative to the Goku Black Saga, there’s no reason to believe he can casually cast Hakai at will.
valid enough, but this just seems like something Ultra Instinct is specifically designed to counter. If GTku "senses the disturbances of Ambient Ki" to try and counterattack, UI just covers the counterattack by itself without Superku actively even thinking about it.
I don’t see how Ultra Instinct is “designed” to counter this. And Ultra Instinct countering doesn’t matter, because GT Goku counters again. This isn’t about “who can counter better.” The Ambient Ki Awareness just means he has better awareness of the battlefield than Superku and isn’t at Ki Sense Disadvantage. Plus, Ultra Instinct having IR is great, and it’s beyond ordinary IR, but it’s not like Toeiku is out of IR either. He can
move without thinking,
evade and attack,
unconsciously act to absorb the energy of the Spirit Bomb, and react to
incoming danger while asleep. (All of that sounds familiar, doesn’t it?)
Again, not saying GTku has “equal” IR, but he does have and use it in his fighting style, so presumably he’s ALSO instinctively acting. He’s just not literally severing consciousness and body to do it.
Superku seems to have this ability on a far greater scale since his body just moves like this automatically. I don't see how this is a relevant advantage for GTku.
Didn’t say it was an advantage. I just said “GTku shouldn’t have to deal with the purported disadvantage.”
Superku can sense GTku just fine. He can tell off rip that GTku isn't weak, and even if he does, Ultra Instinct is gonna kick in if Superku gets caught off guard and now GTku no longer has any element of surprise
I was talking about GT Goku. As in, GT Goku misjudging his own SSJ3 would bite him in the ass.
1. Taking time to learn blatantly isn't an issue since Goku is vastly more skilled than the likes of Fat Buu who can replicate techniques perfectly after seeing it once.
Every instant is important. Goku being hit with the “Wait, wha-“ or even if nigh-instantly learning the technique, it’s still NIGH-Instant. It’s STILL bought time.
2. Nullification and Redirection kinda also doesn't really need to be learned since Ultra Instinct and just normal barriers exist. It's a neat trick that Goku could theoretically learn, but he ultimately doesn't need it imo
Agreed. But I think GTku having it is still advantageous, as it greatly reduces the damage he can take in various situations.
3. If Superku uses Hakai it's gg and GTku is dead. He can't copy a new technique if he's dead. Not to mention Superku has explicit resistance to Hakai due to surviving Vegeta's hakai veing reflected back at him
True, but if GTku evades it, he can learn it.
4. Absorbing ki you can't even sense seems like a bit of a stretch,
I don’t see how. Again, not sensing Energy doesn’t make it harder to touch, absorb, deflect, see, hear, etc. It just makes it harder to get a read on. Also, this seems like a hilarious argument to me when one of UI Goku’s go-to last ditch moves is literally a GIANT GOD KI AVATAR that is RICH WITH ENERGY that ALL CAN PERCEIVE to GRAB HIS FOE. Like, what are we saying here?
and the "element of surprise" literally wouldn't work since you can't catch Ultra Instinct off guard under normal circumstances.
Goku literally gets caught off guard by Angel Moro and Gohan. Mostly because of Magic/MUI and a stat gap, sure, but still. In this instance, GTku Absorbing the Ki of Superku massively improves his stats and gives him a momentary lapse to work with. Even ignoring that, this still forces UI Goku to attempt to work AROUND that disadvantage.
Superku, on the other hand, has many opportunities to catch GTku off guard since GTku doesn't have ultra instinct and, in case I haven't mentioned it already, he can't sense him at all.
He can still see, hear, smell, etc. He can still keep up with the currents of the air. Plus, again, Ki Link and Ambient Ki Disturbances. Like, you’re really running into this as if GTku is missing all his sensory organs off of the inability to sense Ki. And that’s ignoring the fact that even IN Dragon Ball Super, you can still feel the resulting PRESSURE of God Ki in the air. Like, it’s not some eldritch incomprehensible thing.
Superku was able to maintain Ultra Instinct for a while against Moro and activated it multiple times in the entire Granolah arc.
He was also healed and had a Senzu, but okay. Also doesn’t change that he verbatim said he has a limited time limit and Granolah literally mentions outright accuracy dies out over time. Also, as MUI fluctuates based on the exact emotions you feel at a given second, you could legit reason Granolah Arc’s is just not as efficient stamina wise as the Moro Arc. Especially since later in the Post-Superhero content, Gohan
punches Goku out of MUI.
On top of this, Superku already had his vitals stabbed twice before activating Ultra Instinct. In this fight, he's at full health and full power, so it's unreasonable to assume Ultra Instinct would last a short enough time for GTku to actually take advantage of it.
Sure, he’d have vaguely more stamina than he demonstrates, but he objectively still has a very finite time. This doesn’t change that at all. Conversely, GT has much more energy to use thanks to his Saiyan Tail.
Not to mention, again, he can't replicate what Granolah did cuz he doesn't have Granolah's level of pressure point strikes and he still can't sense him at all. Feeling around for something you can't sense in your environment doesn't tell you if the thing you can't sense is slightly fatigued or has less accurate dodging.
Irrelevant to legit just the fact Superku was dwindling stamina.
pretty sure resisting getting melted down into fleshy paste inside the *sscrack of a giant bug man isn't really a "demonstration of skill". It's stated to be a resistance on his profile, not something he "learned" from.
The reason this happens is explicitly, according to Goku, that he
heard of Cell’s absorption ability, and because he
heard it existed, the technique
will not function on him. As in, he devised a means to resist it based solely on heresay alone. It’s specifically similar to the idea of Goku “seeing a technique’s flaws” and thus the technique not working on him again, but this is through just being told.
Not to mention, can you tell me exactly what advantages he gets from the additional content that you mentioned? Like what exactly did he learn from these additional movies and filler that Superku can't also do? Cuz GTku can't copy Superku's UI or Hakai at all cuz of his lack of godly training
He can fight against in depth
Supercomputer Fighting Style Reading, (Android 13 Movie), he’s got more Ki Mastery (Ki just does more, as mentioned prior), he’s got more move copying, (
legit copied the Final Explosion from hearing it existed), able to
predict where
people teleport mid-fight, a more advanced version of Instant Transmission (though he cannot use it in this child body),
electric damage with his Aura, (which can
paralyze), more ability to survive in space, Plus Energy that “puts the world to the way it is SUPPOSED to be,” etc. He gets a good amount of stuff from his content—Though usually more in line of elaborating and improving a fundamental ability, not granting him some new unique move out of nowhere. (With Super Dragon Fist being the only noteworthy exception).
The only things GTku can potentially copy from Superku is Ultra Instinct and Hakai, since GTku can do literally everything else Superku can
There’s also his God Bind, Internal Destruction, the Deconstruction on the Boulder, Illusions, minor Body Control, Mafuba and Breath Attack. Most of these just aren’t viable against GTku. (GTku has internal damage resistance, the battlefield awareness sidesteps the illusions, Superku doesn’t often carry the Mafuba jar, and GT’s evasion keeps him from failing to the Deconstruction and God Bind unless he gets caught off guard. Plus, copying the God Bind seemingly allows you to reverse it, ala Broly).
GTku obviously can't use Ultra Instinct even if he did try and copy it as it's something that Superku, a character who actually CAN copy techniques on the spot, couldn't copy and had to train and master it.
I didn’t even suggest it for that reason.
and if Superku used Hakai, GTku can't copy it cuz he'd already be dead
Unless he dodged.
Superku can more safely copy GTku's techniques due to none of them being instant kill hax (Dragon Fist is punching you REALLY hard, it's not hax)
No, it’s literally solidifying your
Fighting Spirit/Willpower into a giant energy Dragon. It is a hax. Now, whether or not Superku could copy it is a different story. I don’t see why he couldn’t though.
What really WOULD change the outcome of the match is the actual scaling chain that these characters have. If GTku is significantly stronger than Superku then all of my arguments are out the window
Pretty sure Nonynho said it was close. OP literally says they scale the same. (Pretty sure this was mentioned before).
I'm also officially voting Superku since I now have a good idea of how strong each Goku is
Post Tail Baby Saga SSJ3 GTku according to
this is over 2 million times stronger than the likes of Kid Buu
Pretty sure it’s far more. At the end of the Buu Saga, SSJ3 Goku and Kid Buu are equal. GT Base Goku in Episode 1 is relative to his peak as a SSJ3 prior, (so 400x stronger than him), there’s a 250000x jump between E1 Goku and E28, (or 100 million), and then GTKu can go SSJ3 on top of that (grand total of 40 Billion).
SSJG Superku in Battle of Gods is significantly above Kid Buu due to Kid Buu being able to significantly damage the Sacred World of Kais and Buuhan was able to collapse the entire macrocosm with his full enraged power, while Superku could replicate that with just punches.
This isn’t taking into account the stat gap of Goku from end of Buu Saga and how he’s far greater than Buuhan from matching Ultimate Gohan in Base. Also, Superku was doing that with a non-insignificant amount of effort.
Considering how Base Gogeta > SSGSS Goku and Vegeta and SSGSS Gogeta could beat Broly who should be relative to Ultra Instinct Goku and Jiren, this should imply that a fusion + SSGSS is around the same ballpark as Ultra Instinct Goku, meaning Ultra Instinct is literally just... SSGSS squared
I’m not sure that’s accepted, actually. I’ll have to check on that.
so Superku should be way stronger since the multiplier for Super Saiyan God is potent enough to make someone go from 4B to 2C and Superku has that squared and then some
OP says the chains end the same, currently.
So based on what’s in the thread, it’s a stat equal, (except the sizable edge in lifting strength GTku has).
what exactly are GTku's reasons for winning again
like I see:
1. Skill (extremely debatable since they both have very different experiences)
Sure.
2. Better ki perception (Ultra Instinct is just better)
Not a wincon. Mitigating factor. But even then, Ultra Instinct isn’t better—It just means he’s not impeded by passively being given wrong information.
3. Energy Nullification, Redirection, and Absorption (Superku just punches him, Ultra Instinct covers all of these anyways, not to mention GTku has never absorbed his enemy's ki in an actual fight)
Ultra Instinct can’t do these on command, (he has to first copy them), and GTku literally absorbed the Revenge Death Ball Final. Just objectively wrong.
heck he's only ever absorbed his OWN spirit bomb. Why are people assuming he can absorb Superku's God Ki when Superku is giving him God Ki in the form of f*cking energy blasts aimed at his face
Again, wrong.
like what even is GTku's wincon here? Heck in this key he's also in the body of a child, so his martial arts is massively hampered just from Superku's limbs being over twice as long. Having farther reach is extremely important in any martial arts fight, especially with Ultra Instinct raining down blows
This is true, he has less physical range, but he has demonstrated the ability to fight people of his former size and not be impeded. Plus, he has an additional limb, which doesn’t add much, (and Superku should know how to get around it), but it’s still just as integral as less physical range.
