Layering Immunity

[DarknesSunN]

Can Immunity be labeled layering? My point is, even though Immunity is the highest form of defense, it can still be bypassed, making the title "ultimate defense" seem like a complete nonsense.

Immunity is a lack of aspect, or the absence of a specific aspect. However, if an ability forces an aspect on a character, they no longer qualify for Immunity. This makes Immunity not truly the highest form of defense. So, I guess we could layer Immunity with superiority or bypass Immunity. What do you think?

 

[DarknesSunN]

bump

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

It is possible to bypass immunity by forcing an aspect back on a character. And obviously, having a level of immunity that is immune to that would result in a higher level of immunity, so yes, layering is possible.

Immunity and NEP had a lot in common, so you could say most layered NEPs are layered immunities.

 

[DarknesSunN]

It is possible to bypass immunity by forcing an aspect back on a character. And obviously, having a level of immunity that is immune to that would result in a higher level of immunity, so yes, layering is possible.

Immunity and NEP had a lot in common, so you could say most layered NEPs are layered immunities.

I understand the general idea, but does this include Layered Immunity? There are three characters, let's say A, B, and C. Suppose character A has immunity to soul and is bypassed by character B, but the bypass doesn't work on character C, who also has immunity to soul. This means C's immunity works on B because he isn't affected by the bypass, while A's immunity doesn't.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

I understand the general idea, but does this include Layered Immunity? There are three characters, let's say A, B, and C. Suppose character A has immunity to soul and is bypassed by character B, but the bypass doesn't work on character C, who also has immunity to soul. This means C's immunity works on B because he isn't affected by the bypass, while A's immunity doesn't.

Yeah, Character C's Immunity would be considered greater than Character A's.

 

[DarknesSunN]

Yeah, Character C's Immunity would be considered greater than Character A's.

Okay, thank you for answering my question.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

I was thinking no because how uncommon actual immunities are.

Yeah there are some characters who have feats but that's very hard but the example SpaceMan gave makes sense.

Yeah, Character C's Immunity would be considered greater than Character A's.

Makes me wonder tho, is it truly an immunity or just extreme resistance.

 

[DarknesSunN]

Makes me wonder tho, is it truly an immunity or just extreme resistance.

I prefer layering over resistance, because Immunity is the highest form of Resistance, of course the resistance level will not work in the Immunity realm.

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

I mean...I feel like the example you gave was more a show of very high resistance rather than outright immunity, to give an example no matter how powerful a characters soul manip is, if they used it on an inanimate object that lacked a soul then an affect should never be realized, doesn't matter even if they are 1A. That is typically what the wiki defines as "immunity", though yeah the example SpaceMan gave was good, it is also important to understand how genuinely rare of an ability something like NEP erasure is, let alone what he mentioned

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

To be fair, like I mentioned we have feats of that kind of things happening. At least I know about 1 such case with someone fear haxing a building.

 

[DarknesSunN]

I mean...I feel like the example you gave was more a show of very high resistance rather than outright immunity, to give an example no matter how powerful a characters soul manip is, if they used it on an inanimate object that lacked a soul then an affect should never be realized, doesn't matter even if they are 1A. That is typically what the wiki defines as "immunity", though yeah the example SpaceMan gave was good, it is also important to understand how genuinely rare of an ability something like NEP erasure is, let alone what he mentioned

The effect will still be realized if the soul manipulation is superior to immunity. Furthermore, immunity isn't an absolute defense, as it can still be forced to participate in certain aspects.

The example you provided could be a character capable of soul manipulation, even on inanimate objects. I think it would have a significant impact on rocks, which don't possess souls.

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

To be fair, like I mentioned we have feats of that kind of things happening. At least I know about 1 such case with someone fear haxing a building.

Yeah, you're referring to DMC. Idk the context behind that feat, but I wasn't saying it was impossible, I was mainly highlighting how rare of an ability it is

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

Furthermore, immunity isn't an absolute defense, as it can still be forced to participate in certain aspects.

Yes but this is not done through "stronger" or "more potent" soul manip, it is literally done by metaphysical abilities (law manip, IM2, CM1, etc)

 

[DarknesSunN]

Yes but this is not done through "stronger" or "more potent" soul manip, it is literally done by metaphysical abilities (law manip, IM2, CM1, etc)

Okay, what about the layering of immunity gained through transcendence? I'll give another example: in the Chinese Verse, the realm below it can't influence the immunity of the realm above it, but conversely, the realm above it can easily influence the immunity of the realm below it. Will the immunity of the realm above it be layered because its immunity is stronger?

 

[DarknesSunN]

bump, I think I need more input

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

Okay, what about the layering of immunity gained through transcendence? I'll give another example: in the Chinese Verse, the realm below it can't influence the immunity of the realm above it, but conversely, the realm above it can easily influence the immunity of the realm below it. Will the immunity of the realm above it be layered because its immunity is stronger?

bump, I think I need more input

This would probably be more in line with what SpaceMan said I think, yeah def good to get some more input, it is a bit of a controversial topic

 

[DarknesSunN]

This would probably be more in line with what SpaceMan said I think, yeah def good to get some more input, it is a bit of a controversial topic

Alright, So I can conclude from this discussion that Immunity might be given layering as explained by SpaceMan, but it all depends on the fictional narrative or case by case.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

Okay, what about the layering of immunity gained through transcendence? I'll give another example: in the Chinese Verse, the realm below it can't influence the immunity of the realm above it, but conversely, the realm above it can easily influence the immunity of the realm below it. Will the immunity of the realm above it be layered because its immunity is stronger?

personally I would label it as just resistances

you are resistant to things on your level but higher levels are more potent or trascendental to resist and this goes for as many levels are there

for it to be immunity you would need statements and feats not just a single "im now immune to x"

 

[DarknesSunN]

personally I would label it as just resistances

Didn't I already explain that resistance is no longer relevant if it's at the same level as immunity, because immunity is a higher-level form of resistance?

Moreover, it doesn't make sense if we label it as Resistance only because the bypass itself is able to penetrate higher Resistance (Immunity) and we only give it the label Resistance? It's the same as downgrading

you are resistant to things on your level but higher levels are more potent or trascendental to resist and this goes for as many levels are there

Moreover, some people have agreed that layering is possible to overcome bypass.

for it to be immunity you would need statements and feats not just a single "im now immune to x"

Regarding lack of, higher/lower realms are detached from everything in that verse and can't even be defined by the aspects there. I think this qualifies as immunity. Furthermore, higher realms have a much deeper level of immunity than lower realms, as they can't have a significant impact.

 

[DarknesSunN]

Bump! does anyone have any more opinions?

 

[DarknesSunN]

sorry for the tag, but what do you guys think? and can you call someone else with better knowledge to evaluate my question?
@Ultima_Reality @Antvasima

 

[Kellex]

sorry for the tag, but what do you guys think? and can you call someone else with better knowledge to evaluate my question?
@Ultima_Reality @Antvasima

Regular users can't ping other users, only staff can.

 

[DarknesSunN]

Regular users can't ping other users, only staff can.

alright

 

[Voidnether]

I understand the general idea, but does this include Layered Immunity? There are three characters, let's say A, B, and C. Suppose character A has immunity to soul and is bypassed by character B, but the bypass doesn't work on character C, who also has immunity to soul. This means C's immunity works on B because he isn't affected by the bypass, while A's immunity doesn't.

This literally just meant that character A in question just had regular Immunity:

Qualifying for Immunity is difficult, as no simple show of resistance is enough, and statements could easily be hyperbole or only apply in-verse. Immunity should only be given when the user in question entirely lacks what would normally be affected. A being with Inorganic Physiology for example, has no components for Biological Manipulation to control or alter, an entity without a soul won't be harmed by Soul Manipulation, a being made purely of fire has no blood to manipulate, and so on.

Whilst C is Metaphysical Immunity as it cannot be bypassed by B (i.e by adding the aspect) as Metaphysical Immunity is rendered immune to any sort of bypass through adding the aspect back as this only works for regular Immunity. Which is why most Metaphysical Immunity usually operates on a Paraconsistent logic:

A more robust version of Immunity is the ability to be immune to certain attacks, abilities, or more general effects due to lacking or not being able to participate in certain Metaphysical Aspects connected to that effect. An example would be the inability to be burned due to not being able to participate in the concept of being burned. As they can't participate in the concept of being burned, no matter how strong of a fire is directed at them, the result of being burned couldn't be realized. Frequently (although not always), this is also less formally formulated as "lacking a concept", such as an entity being immortal due to lacking the concept of death. This version of Immunity is referred to as Metaphysical Immunity, although it should just be listed as Immunity on profiles.

That being said, I personally disagree with regular Immunity being layered because usually layered NEP just means that their Incorporeality is layered and that's basically it. I would only agree with Metaphysical Immunity having layers though since a baseline Paraconsistent Physiology type 3 character that operates on a 5 truth states only is still able to be bypassed by the same Paraconsistent Physiology type 3 character that has like 6 truth states.

Say that it's possible for regular Immunity to be layered, I feel like if it's not Metaphysical Immunity then no matter how much layers are in said regular Immunity; They're still able to be bypassed by any Creation ability that's able to add their aspects back, as this would work similar to Resistance Negation in which Resistance Negation to Soul Manipulation is assumed to work against those who has Infinite layers of Soul Manipulation. The only way countering this, if they also have Resistance to Resistance Negation if that makes sense.

 

[DarknesSunN]

That being said, I personally disagree with regular Immunity being layered because usually layered NEP just means that their Incorporeality is layered and that's basically it. I would only agree with Metaphysical Immunity having layers though since a baseline Paraconsistent Physiology type 3 character that operates on a 5 truth states only is still able to be bypassed by the same Paraconsistent Physiology type 3 character that has like 6 truth states.

Say that it's possible for regular Immunity to be layered, I feel like if it's not Metaphysical Immunity then no matter how much layers are in said regular Immunity; They're still able to be bypassed by any Creation ability that's able to add their aspects back, as this would work similar to Resistance Negation in which Resistance Negation to Soul Manipulation is assumed to work against those who has Infinite layers of Soul Manipulation. The only way countering this, if they also have Resistance to Resistance Negation if that makes sense.

alr