Minor Deltarune Revision - Nonbinary Kris (GRACE)

[AyOgUyS]

Hi. The purpose of this CRT is to change Kris' gender from "Unknown" to "Non-binary".

Kris is exclusively referred to in Deltarune with singular they/them pronouns and unlike Chara and Frisk, they are explicitly their own character separate from us, the Player. Every single character in Deltarune that ever refers to Kris, including those close to Kris, only does so using they/them. Toby Fox also referred to Kris as "they” right after someone else had previously referred to Kris as "he" (should be noted that Toby was using a TTS to talk so his statements were very likely delayed), indicating that yes, the intention is for Kris to be nonbinary.

While They/Them can be used to refer to agender people, agender would logically fall under the nonbinary umbrella.

Should be pretty straightforward and uncontroversial.

Agree: @Echidnacodefan2512, @LittleGuy99, @The_Renegade_Slugger, @Randomuser3412, @Ghengiroo115, @Edutyn, @GrathOfLux (Admin & HR), @Comiphorous, @IDK3465, @Dalesean027 (Thread Mod & Calc Group)
Neutral:
Disagree: @Omegabronic

 

[Echidnacodefan2512]

Agree

 

[LittleGuy99]

Agree

 

[The_Renegade_Slugger]

Something something, agree

 

[Randomuser3412]

Something something, agree

Oh, dear... it just keeps growing day after day (agree)

 

[The_Renegade_Slugger]

Agree

DAMN beat me by a second

 

[AyOgUyS]

Something something, agree

ITS OVER NINE THOUSAND!!

(hopefully one day...)

 

[Ghengiroo115]

Agree, hopefully this’ll be uncontroversial.

 

[AyOgUyS]

Agree, hopefully this’ll be uncontroversial.

There's really no reason at all for this to be even remotely controversial, its one of the most blatant examples of a nonbinary character imo.

 

[Edutyn]

Agree

Not clear enought, gime another 100 references.

Agree

 

[Lilybitdun]

Toby Fox referred to Kris as "they” right after someone else had previously referred to Kris as "he", indicating that yes, the intention is for Kris to be nonbinary.

You should prob put the scan of when this happened

 

[AyOgUyS]

You should prob put the scan of when this happened

Eh sure I'll look for it

 

[AyOgUyS]

Ok found the clip:

Admittedly I misremembered it but should still be notable

 

[GrathOfLux]

Are you suggesting changing the "Gender" section specifically to list "They/Them"? There is no dedicated pronoun section on the page to my knowledge.

I believe we'd normally use the Gender section to list something more along the lines of "Non-Binary", and I'd generally prefer this - but if there are examples on the wiki of simply listing the character's pronouns in that space then that's no fuss. In any case, I'm surprised it's remained with "Unknown" for this long, and I support changing it to better communicate this element one way or another.

 

[AyOgUyS]

Are you suggesting changing the "Gender" section specifically to list "They/Them"? There is no dedicated pronoun section on the page to my knowledge.

I believe we'd normally use the Gender section to list something more along the lines of "Non-Binary", and I'd generally prefer this - but if there are examples on the wiki of simply listing the character's pronouns in that space then that's no fuss. In any case, I'm surprised it's remained with "Unknown" for this long, and I support changing it to better communicate this element one way or another.

I think I wasn't clear enough, I'll edit the OP in a bit but I'm suggesting Kris' gender be changed to "Non-binary" like in this page.

Edit: Maybe an additional note that Kris uses exclusively they/them would be nice as well, will add to OP

 

[GrathOfLux]

That should be fine.

 

[AyOgUyS]

That should be fine.

Is this revision considered minor enough that your vote alone is enough, or do I need more staff input?

 

[Comiphorous]

Someone should at some point fix it on Frisk/Chara's page as well. Those two have been unknown for some time as well. despite also being non-binary characters as well.

Anyways, yeah this is simple i agree.

Edit: Actually, it's very simple. I should just do it myself.

 

[AyOgUyS]

Made a minor adjustment to the OP.

 

[IDK3465]

Agree lol

 

[Omegabronic]

Hi. The purpose of this CRT is to change Kris' gender from "Unknown" to "Non-binary" and add a note onto their page that states "Kris exclusively and explicitly uses They/Them pronouns, indicating they are nonbinary."

Kris is exclusively referred to in Deltarune with singular they/them pronouns

"They/Them" actually are gender neutral pronouns, we don't know what gender Kris identifies as, if any, they can equally be used for people who don't identify as any gender at all, or, for an outside meta perspective, simply be used as a way to not reveal or indicate any gender for a character for any particular reason or another

and unlike Chara and Frisk, they are explicitly their own character separate from us, the Player.

I don't see how that proves anything? Or correlates for that matter? They/Them is STILL not Nonbinary exclussive, pronouns alone don't prove any particular gender in this case regardless of Kris being their own character or not

Every single character in Deltarune that ever refers to Kris, including those close to Kris, only does so using they/them.

You would still need to prove this is because they are, specifically, Nonbinary, instead of not identifying as any gender, or because Toby simply didn't want to asign a specific gender to them and simply wanted to leave it open to interpretation

Toby Fox also referred to Kris as "they” right after someone else had previously referred to Kris as "he" (should be noted that Toby was using a TTS to talk so his statements were very likely delayed), indicating that yes, the intention is for Kris to be nonbinary.

Toby didn't correct them, nor did anyone there seemed to even notice that "he" was used... again, pronouns alone do not prove gender here, the pronoun is gender neutral, not Nonbinary exclusive

So i disagree, the page already conveys the true meaning of "they/them" as being neutral and capable of referring to any gender, aka, we simply don't know Kris' gender as of now

 

[AyOgUyS]

So i disagree, the page already conveys the true meaning of "they/them" as being neutral and capable of referring to any gender, aka, we simply don't know Kris' gender as of now

Isn't there literally an area in Deltarune with the dialogue "...non-men are allowed too." and in another place "...non-girls are allowed too."? If that isn't Toby telling us Kris is nonbinary, I really don't know what it could be. Also gender neutral really only applies in the case that you don't know somebody's gender which shouldn't be applicable to Kris because even their close friends and family who should definitely know their gender exclusively refer to them with they/them.

Edit: Also like, agender falls under nonbinary anyway

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Isn't there literally an area in Deltarune with the dialogue "...non-men are allowed too." and in another place "...non-girls are allowed too."? If that isn't Toby telling us Kris is nonbinary, I really don't know what it could be.

Yeah like

 

[AyOgUyS]

Yeah like

Thanks!
I was too lazy to find the exact quote

 

[Omegabronic]

Isn't there literally an area in Deltarune with the dialogue "...non-men are allowed too." and in another place "...non-girls are allowed too."? If that isn't Toby telling us Kris is nonbinary, I really don't know what it could be.

You mean man country? That part doesn't tell us if it is refering to Kris, it could be equally refering to the Seven Aces that are throughout the map in that section

Also, again, equally can be because Kris has no gender/Is agender, or cause Toby doesn't want to comfirm anything about that part of Kris's character

Edit: Also like, agender falls under nonbinary anyway

No it doesn't, agender = doesn't identify as any specific gender

Nonbinary is a gender, aka, not agender

Also for more reasons as to why "They/Them" is used in its gender neutral way


Toby uses "They/Them" for Monster Kid specifically because he didn't want to assign any specific gender to them, so we have precedent for how and why Toby uses "They/Them" for his characters

 

[AyOgUyS]

No it doesn't, agender = doesn't identify as any specific gender

Nonbinary is a gender, aka, not agender

Doesn't nonbinary just refer to any gender identity outside of the traditional male/female gender binary? Agender would logically fall under that as both are gender identities outside of the traditional male/female gender binary.

Toby uses "They/Them" for Monster Kid specifically because he didn't want to assign any specific gender to them, so we have precedent for how and why Toby uses "They/Them" for his characters

Monster Kid is also a vastly different character than Kris.

 

[Omegabronic]

Doesn't nonbinary just refer to any gender identity outside of the traditional male/female gender binary? Agender would logically fall under that as both are gender identities outside of the traditional male/female gender binary.

If Kris is Agender, our wiki would need to put them as "Genderless" for the Gender part, meanwhile if they are "Nonbinary" gender, we would put "Nonbinary"

Beings without Gender on the wiki are not put as "Nonbinary" but as "Genderless"

Monster Kid is also a vastly different character than Kris.

How does that correlate to the argument made? They/Them alone doesn't prove any gender in particular, all I did is show that Toby equally uses They/Them when he doesn't want to assign gender to his characters

 

[AyOgUyS]

Made minor adjustment to the OP.

 

[Omegabronic]

While They/Them can be used to refer to agender people, agender would logically fall under the nonbinary umbrella.

Agender characters are classifies as "Genderless" or "None" or "Inaplicaple" in our gender category, "Non-Binary" is used exclusively for character that identify as such gender, instead of the ones that don't identify as having a gender to begin with, pronouns alone can't tell us much in this situation

 

[Comiphorous]

You mean man country? That part doesn't tell us if it is refering to Kris, it could be equally refering to the Seven Aces that are throughout the map in that section

Also, again, equally can be because Kris has no gender/Is agender, or cause Toby doesn't want to comfirm anything about that part of Kris's character

Are you trying to argue that the scene actually was referring to the enemies who aren't relevant instead of the main character? That's your best argument here? Seriously?

No it doesn't, agender = doesn't identify as any specific gender

Nonbinary is a gender, aka, not agender

Level 0 Woke over here. Google is free, you can look up the umbrella terms for free.

Also for more reasons as to why "They/Them" is used in its gender neutral way


Toby uses "They/Them" for Monster Kid specifically because he didn't want to assign any specific gender to them, so we have precedent for how and why Toby uses "They/Them" for his characters

Kris famously has arms so they can't possibly be Monster Kid so idk why you'd bring up someone completely unrelated to this matter.

 

[AyOgUyS]

You mean man country? That part doesn't tell us if it is refering to Kris, it could be equally refering to the Seven Aces that are throughout the map in that section

Also, again, equally can be because Kris has no gender/Is agender, or cause Toby doesn't want to comfirm anything about that part of Kris's character

Look. While we don't know Kris' exact gender identity, it's explicit that they do not identify as he/him or she/her but rather exclusively they/them. While they/them can be used as a gender neutral term when you don't know someone's gender identity, Kris' close friends and family should definitely know. While we don't know Kris' exact gender identity, it's clear that it falls outside the traditional male/female gender binary. That's why I propose that we change it from Unknown because Unknown implies we don't know what Kris' gender is but we do know that its not male or female so Non-binary is the best term to use.

It also doesn't make sense for Kris' gender to be intended to be ambiguous when everything else about them is not. Kris is explicitly not an ambiguous self-insert. They are their own person. It is explicitly stated and shown that Kris is their own person. It's quite literally stated to us that we do not get to decide anything about Kris.
Kris is very clearly defined as their own character. Kris has their own life, family, friends, and personality that the player doesn't get to choose. Kris is their own person and their closest friends (and their creator) all use they/them for them. They are not a self-insert and it would be contradictory for Kris' gender to be ambiguous and up for us to decide.

 

[Omegabronic]

Are you trying to argue that the scene actually was referring to the enemies who aren't relevant instead of the main character? That's your best argument here? Seriously?

No? It is AN argument, could be refering to

Level 0 Woke over here. Google is free, you can look up the umbrella terms for free.

I can equally talk to my Agender and Nonbinary friends about it, as well as research multiple sources instead of the Google AI resume

Also, for our site's purposes, we need to be a little more specific than that if all we wanna use is pronouns for our Gender section

Kris famously has arms so they can't possibly be Monster Kid so idk why you'd bring up someone completely unrelated to this matter.

How would an example of how Toby Fox, the writer and creator of both games, uses the gender neutral pronouns "They/Them", not as a sign of the characters being Nonbinary, but instead because he doesn't want to assign gender to them, "completely unrelated"?

It is VERY MUCH related, why focus on the character in question instead of the point of the example? Aka, the precedent for how Toby uses "They/Them" for his characters? The pronouns are already Gender Neutral by nature, me showing using them as such shows that he may just use them... as such

 

[Comiphorous]

No? It is AN argument, could be refering to

could but never is. curious...

I can equally talk to my Agender and Nonbinary friends about it, as well as research multiple sources instead of the Google AI resume

Or i could just say click here.

How would an example of how Toby Fox, the writer and creator of both games, uses the gender neutral pronouns "They/Them", not as a sign of the characters being Nonbinary, but instead because he doesn't want to assign gender to them, "completely unrelated"?

Because toby fox didn't write that. I'mma take the word of the video game directly written by toby fox instead of the book not written by toby fox.

It is VERY MUCH related, why focus on the character in question instead of the point of the example? Aka, the precedent for how Toby uses "They/Them" for his characters? The pronouns are already Gender Neutral by nature, me showing using them as such shows that he may just use them... as such

He uses them in manner for monster kid. (not kris)

 

[AyOgUyS]

Also, for our site's purposes, we need to be a little more specific than that if all we wanna use is pronouns for our Gender section

@GrathOfLux seemed to think "Non-binary" is fine.

 

[Dalesean027]

This seems fine

 

[AyOgUyS]

This seems fine

That should be fine.

Are two staff votes considered enough for this thread to be accepted or do I need to wait for more staff input?
Can't remember if Deltarune is a controversial verse or not

Edit: Ok Deltarune isn't major according to @LordGriffin1000 in my Gerson thread so that's grace. Staff, please correct me if I'm wrong or misunderstanding.

 

[Omegabronic]

Look. While we don't know Kris' exact gender identity, it's explicit that they do not identify as he/him or she/her but rather exclusively they/them.

Yes, which is why the profile says as much

While they/them can be used as a gender neutral term when you don't know someone's gender identity, Kris' close friends and family should definitely know.

It can ALSO equally be used to refer to Males, Females, etc, even WHEN you know their gender, happens to me and friends a lot for example

Also, let's assume Toby wanted to make Kris' gender ambiguous... how do you think he would realistically do that without having the characters, even the ones close to them, use the Gender Neutral pronouns? This argument doesn't work as, regarldless, Toby would need to use these pronouns by necessity, be it because Kris is Non-Binary, Agender, or Ambiguous, on all options he would need to use "They/Them", so the argument doesn't prove much here

While we don't know Kris' exact gender identity, it's clear that it falls outside the traditional male/female gender binary. That's why I propose that we change it from Unknown because Unknown implies we don't know what Kris' gender is but we do know that its not male or female so Non-binary is the best term to use.

Not really, the best option for the situation you described would be "Unknown (Not specified or confirmed, although does not fall under Male or Female, using exclusively "They/Them" pronouns)"

I don't think we have a straight confirmation of what Kris identifies as, or doesn't identify, at the moment, so for me a "Not-Confirmed" equally applies here

It also doesn't make sense for Kris' gender to be intended to be ambiguous when everything else about them is not. Kris is explicitly not an ambiguous self-insert. They are their own person. It is explicitly stated and shown that Kris is their own person. It's quite literally stated to us that we do not get to decide anything about Kris.
Kris is very clearly defined as their own character. Kris has their own life, family, friends, and personality that the player doesn't get to choose. Kris is their own person and their closest friends (and their creator) all use they/them for them. They are not a self-insert and it would be contradictory for Kris' gender to be ambiguous and up for us to decide.

Being "their own person" and "not a self insert" was not never something i questioned? Both of these do not confirm nor deny anything about their gender, Kris' gender can still be ambiguous, specially since so many aspects of their story, motivations, character, etc are still ambiguous as of now, like why are they helping The Knight? What is the deal with them and the Forgotten Man? How did they got the Player's SOUL, etc

Also, you are assuming Kris already choose a gender for them or pronouns for that matter, they could just as easily just not have decided that about themself yet, like Zooble for example, so regardless of all that has been said, even the Non-Binary "umbrella" is not a confirmed thing

 

[Omegabronic]

could but never is. curious...

I simply disagree on it being clear cut

Or i could just say click here.

That... doesn't answer any of the points I gave tho? I had already consulted that

Because toby fox didn't write that. I'mma take the word of the video game directly written by toby fox instead of the book not written by toby fox.

... He was consulted about it dude, It is his word, and his vision, regardless if he was the one who specifically wrotte that or not

He uses them in manner for monster kid. (not kris)

Can you prove he is using "They/Them" to establish Kris a gender instead of using like he used for Monster Kid, Frisk and Chara? This part is me talking about how "They/Them" does not prove much on its own... on that note, I see no difference between both situations

 

[Omegabronic]

Are two staff votes considered enough for this thread to be accepted or do I need to wait for more staff input?
Can't remember if Deltarune is a controversial verse or not

Edit: Ok Deltarune isn't major according to @LordGriffin1000 in my Gerson thread so that's grace. Staff, please correct me if I'm wrong or misunderstanding.

Still would need to wait... 48 or 24 hrs... Don't remember which for this type of revision

 

[AyOgUyS]

Still would need to wait... 48 or 24 hrs... Don't remember which for this type of revision

i'll wait like 48 to be safe