Removing Necati's Universal Key

[AloseVQ]

I will get straight to the point without any intro.

Here is a brief summary of why Necati is currently considered as 3-A:

In episode 217 of Kral Şakir (3:00), as a reward for solving the world's most difficult problem, Mirket takes Necati to a machine that has control over all the laws of physics in the world and tells him "You are now in charge of all the laws of physics in the world." And then Necati presses random buttons on the machine and changes the physics of the whole world and as a result Şakir and Remzi are affected (Şakir turns into a liquid and Remzi starts flying etc.). This is not only limited to Şakir, Remzi and other people, but because of a button he presses, he turns the moon into a cube (6:02) and in addition to this, while Remzi and Şakir are climbing to the top of Mount Ararat, he says "It's a bit difficult to climb the mountain when the laws of physics don't work. (7:00)". So when Mirket says "the laws of physics of the world", it actually refers to the whole universe. And a Matter Manipulation with a 3-A range should also grant 3-A AP.

But is this really the case? Or if so, should Necati really get a 3-A AP via this?

Of course not. Every matter manipulation with 3-A range does not and should not always grant 3-A AP. It depends on how that character uses matter manipulation at that range. As it is written on the Tiering System page, in order to have 3-A AP, they need to destroy/create/significantly affect a 3D finite structure that is at least as large as the observable universe. And all 3 of these conditions are neither stated nor performed by Necati. He simply changes objects in the universe one by one by pressing buttons on the machine. He neither destroys them, nor creates a new one, nor poses a threat to the existence of those planets. It just changes their shape, and at the same time it doesn't even affect the entire 3-A area or pose a threat to the existence of it. So he lacks the feats of "significantly affecting" or any statement that could refer to that. Hence Necati's 3-A key should be removed.

Agree: ImmortalDread, Valeska24, ZetsuEarly0, Burkiqwe, CryptonBestDbFan, Marvel_Champion_07, Lonkitt, DarkGrath, Damage3245, Maverick_Zero_X

Disagree: ShionAH

Neutral:

 

[ImmortalDread]

I essentially concur with this viewpoint. Elaboration seems unnecessary, as you've already provided an ample explanation. There's an absence of any indication of AP, with the actions primarily revolving around manipulation of the world's fundamental principles.

This manipulation appears to be limited to the context, involving dimensional and law & matter manipulation.

 

[AloseVQ]

This manipulation appears to be limited to the context, involving dimensional and law & matter manipulation.

So can I note you as agreed?

 

[Valeska24]

simple enough, I agree

 

[Damage3245]

This seems acceptable to me.

 

[AloseVQ]

This seems acceptable to me.

Thanks for your input

 

[ZetsuEarly0]

Seems Logical, I agree.

 

[Burkiqwe]

Makes sense, I agree.

 

[CryptonBestDbFan]

Seems logical, I agree.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

@Lonkitt @DarkGrath

Since you were the mods that approved the upgrade, your opinion here would be valuable.

@ShionAH @Barbar01

You were the users that proposed the original upgrade, so letting you know of this thread so you may defend it.

 

[ShionAH]

How is changing logic itself not a significant change? Mirket also states that if Necati is not stopped he cannot even comprehend what he might cause to the universe (Remember this is the guy who creates solar systems and blackholes for fun)

I am neutral leaning to disagree but I am open to explanation if I am wrong.

 

[AloseVQ]

.

Thank you for tagging them. BTW what are your thoughts?

 

[AloseVQ]

How is changing logic itself not a significant change?

Changing logic itself has nothing to do with 3-A AP.

Mirket also states that if Necati is not stopped he cannot even comprehend what he might cause to the universe

Mirket's statement is very vague. It's not clear whether he will really affect the entire universe in a significant way and pose a threat to the existence of all of it, or whether it will just spell the end of humanity. Also, in the scene where he says this, Mirket is only imagining "the destruction of the Earth/Necati coming out of it and tearing it apart". You can't really extend this to a 3-A space without extra statement.

(Remember this is the guy who creates solar systems and blackholes for fun)

It's not really relevant.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Thank you for tagging them. BTW what are your thoughts?

I have no opinion. I know absolutely 0 of the verse.

 

[ShionAH]

Changing logic itself has nothing to do with 3-A AP.

It shows the power of it.

Mirket's statement is very vague. It's not clear whether he will really affect the entire universe in a significant way and pose a threat to the existence of all of it, or whether it will just spell the end of humanity. Also, in the scene where he says this, Mirket is only imagining "the destruction of the Earth/Necati coming out of it and tearing it apart". You can't really extend this to a 3-A space without extra statement.

No thats not the what Mirket is talking about. When we see Necati destroying earth we are supposed to understand how much he will destroy Logic where anything will be possible, just like Bill Cipher

It's not really relevant.

If a guy who does that stuff is worried, I think its a big deal.

 

[AloseVQ]

It shows the power of it.

Yeah, and it's about hax. That's why he has "law manipulation". It has nothing to do with AP.

No thats not the what Mirket is talking about. When we see Necati destroying earth we are supposed to understand how much he will destroy Logic where anything will be possible, just like Bill Cipher

Yes, we need to understand his power here. But there's not enough to extend it to a 3-A area and claim that it can destroy all of it. The difference between 3-A and 5-B is not just a difference that can be closed with an unsupported statment. Especially if this statement we are talking about can mean very different things.

If a guy who does that stuff is worried, I think its a big deal.

Yes, but it has nothing to do with where 3-A stuff is coming from or with supporting the statement we are talking about.

 

[Barbar01]

The machine used by Necati the Elephant is said to have complete control over the matter and physics of the entire world, but it still controls the matter of planets such as the sun and moon, so the word world should be understood as the universe.

It is wrong to say that Necati the Elephant's machine does not have any destructive power. because from the fact that he can liquefy people, shrink mountains, control gravity and the laws of physics, manipulate planets in space, we see that he can completely control matter and physics, so he need not succeed in destroying it again. As Lonkit etc. recognise, the manipulation of matter in a space within the universe range should give 3a ap because it fits the definition of significantly affecting it, not necessarily destroying it.

it has already been said that he has full control over these things.

 

[ShionAH]

Yeah, and it's about hax. That's why he has "law manipulation". It has nothing to do with AP.

Yes, we need to understand his power here. But there's not enough to extend it to a 3-A area and claim that it can destroy all of it. The difference between 3-A and 5-B is not just a difference that can be closed with an unsupported statment. Especially if this statement we are talking about can mean very different things.

Yes, but it has nothing to do with where 3-A stuff is coming from or with supporting the statement we are talking about.

We dont have care about the "destroy" part we only care about the "affect" part and the range is 3-A which means at the full potential it CAN cause the destruction of it or control it. Literally this CRTs whole thing was already argued in the CRT where this was added.

 

[AloseVQ]

The machine used by Necati the Elephant is said to have complete control over the matter and physics of the entire world, but it still controls the matter of planets such as the sun and moon, so the word world should be understood as the universe.

I'm not denying that this range is universal, I'm just saying it lacks the contexts needed to connect it to the AP.

It is wrong to say that Necati the Elephant's machine does not have any destructive power. because from the fact that he can liquefy people, shrink mountains, control gravity and the laws of physics, manipulate planets in space, we see that he can completely control matter and physics, so he need not succeed in destroying it again. As Lonkit etc. recognise, the manipulation of matter in a space within the universe range should give 3a ap because it fits the definition of significantly affecting it, not necessarily destroying it.

I do not deny his control over the others and the planets, his ability to manipulate them. Necati can do it by changing them one by one or in a limited space. He has not practiced it in all of 3-A space, or was not told he could. Even Necati's changing the moon was done by a different button than the one that affected Remzi and Shakir. So it does not affect them at the same time. There is a different button for each of them. So Necati's inability to affect all of them at the same time, even though he has 3-A range, already negates the "significantly affecting" criterion.

it has already been said that he has full control over these things.

The standard that Lonkitt and DarkGrath say is not the same as Necati's situation. I explained this in the OP and in my replies.

We dont have care about the "destroy" part we only care about the "affect" part and the range is 3-A which means at the full potential it CAN cause the destruction of it or control it.

Just because it has a 3-A range does not mean that it can (significantly) affect them all at the same time. I already explained this in the OP.

Literally this CRTs whole thing was already argued in the CRT where this was added.

The fact that it was accepted and added beforehand does not mean that it cannot be questioned later.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Literally this CRTs whole thing was already argued in the CRT where this was added.

Ah yes, my bad. The og thread here

 

[ShionAH]

Anyways I wont respond further, 3-A Ranged Matter Manipulation with no weakness is 3-A in terms of potential AP.

 

[AloseVQ]

Anyways I wont respond further, 3-A Ranged Matter Manipulation with no weakness is 3-A in terms of potential AP.

Okay, I'll note you as disagreeing then.

 

[Lonkitt]

Yeah, this doesn’t really seem like 3-A AP

I agree with the OP’s proposal

 

[AloseVQ]

Yeah, this doesn’t really seem like 3-A AP

I agree with the OP’s proposal

Thanks for your input.

 

[Lonkitt]

Thanks for your input.

Happy to help

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

I agree with the OP

 

[Barbar01]

There is a different button for each of them. So Necati's inability to affect all of them at the same time, even though he has 3-A range, already negates the "significantly affecting" criterion.

Of course not, if this device has full control over matter, there must be buttons to destroy or change the shape of the universe, or necati can press several buttons together.

Your argument is right in a way but I strongly disagree with dropping 3a it should be "limited" as it's only about pressing the button

 

[AloseVQ]

Of course not, if this device has full control over matter, there must be buttons to destroy or change the shape of the universe, or necati can press several buttons together.

Total control over the matter can mean many different things. Apart from the meaning that it can control all of them at the same time, it can also mean "being able to control regardless of the type, kind, etc. of the matter, or being able to manipulate them regardless of the methods used to control them." Also, the argument that it can press all buttons at the same time and the argument that "there must be one button for all of them" are very vague and strange. In order to claim that it can press all of them at the same time, it has to be shown or stated, because there could be 10, 20, 30 or even more buttons. And not only buttons, there are also things like switches. So these reasons show that your argument that it can do them all at the same time is invalid and absurd. Also the fact that there must be a button for all of them is also meaningless unless it is shown or stated. You are the only one claiming this and there is no statement or demonstration to support it. So this is just a headcanon.

Your argument is right in a way but I strongly disagree with dropping 3a it should be "limited" as it's only about pressing the button

You cannot grade something as limited that it will never be able to do. Even things that are noted as limited are things that have been proven or stated to be usable in some situations. In this case there is neither.

 

[ImmortalDread]

After hearing counter-arguments, my stance is unchanged.

 

[ShionAH]

Me when funni turkish elephant is not 3-A

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

I agree with the OP.

 

[AloseVQ]

When will I be able to apply the changes?

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

When will I be able to apply the changes?

48 hours after the CRT has been made

 

[Gasper]

This can be applied, i think.

 

[PrinceofPein]

This can be applied, i think.

In 4 hours

 

[DarkGrath]

Due to the language barrier + lack of pre-existing knowledge on the show, it's a bit difficult to evaluate this. I don't know what the characters are saying or doing in the original clips. However, assuming what the OP has said regarding the context is correct, I'd be okay with passing this.

 

[AloseVQ]

I've applied the changes. This CRT can now be closed.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

I've applied the changes. This CRT can now be closed.

Closing