Some shit

[abdoo]

In Tsukumojuku ln (he's a character in Jorge Joestar too and in disco wednesdayyy) and in Jorge Joestar it says Everything Had

meaning. Everything could be explained logically.And it was said that logic is the originator of concepts, so concepts such as time, space, and dimensions will be just a part of logic, so everything follows logic and has meaning, and it was said that beyond is the devoid of logic and transcends the world (what is meant by the world is the story because of the context)

Therefore, it can be considered that beyond is something that transcends concepts, which means low outer



[

 

[Excellence616]

Bla bla bla

 

[Sisyphusx]

Idk about the novels and all but certainly transcending the concept of Space-Time isn't low outer here

 

[abdoo]

Idk about the novels and all but certainly transcending the concept of Space-Time isn't low outer here

Why? + Already mentioned about the existence of personalities who are able to erase the concept of the metaphysical place and already ther are high dimensions (string theory)

 

[abdoo]

Bla bla bla

I don't think that debunk anything

 

[Sisyphusx]

Why?

Tiering of the concept of space-time of a verse differs according to the verse. For eg. if a verse cosmology is 6D and doesn't go above it so the concept of space-time in that verse scales to 6D and doesn't contain everything upto infinite-D cause the dimensionality of the verse itself is limited to 6D so transcending its concept of Space-Time won't make a character L-1A, tho Transcending the concept of space-time of a infinite-D verse is the other thing.

 

[abdoo]

Tiering of the concept of space-time of a verse differs according to the verse. For eg. if a verse cosmology is 6D and doesn't go above it so the concept of space-time in that verse scales to 6D and doesn't contain everything upto infinite-D cause the dimensionality of the verse itself is limited to 6D so transcending its concept of Space-Time won't make a character L-1A, tho Transcending the concept of space-time of a infinite-D verse is the other thing.

Yes, but the argument here is where the wiki says here ( can a character be 1-A and above without an infinite-dimensional/infinitely-layered cosmology) https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Tiering_System_FAQ
Well, we have to know that the concept of dimensions is one, but ideas can be added to it, as you said, it may include 6d Or 5d, etc... But the original will be that it is one concept, which is the axes of movement, or rather an existential level. Now this level will be the same thing, because the personality transcends the concept, so it will not be affected by adding these dimensions under the concept, as the wiki says (completely independent of the number of layers/ dimensions present on the setting) Where will these layers and dimensions be added? under the concept of dimensions and so on

 

[Chariot190]

In Tsukumojuku ln (he's a character in Jorge Joestar too and in disco wednesdayyy) and in Jorge Joestar it says Everything Had

meaning. Everything could be explained logically.And it was said that logic is the originator of concepts, so concepts such as time, space, and dimensions will be just a part of logic, so everything follows logic and has meaning, and it was said that beyond is the devoid of logic and transcends the world (what is meant by the world is the story because of the context)

Therefore, it can be considered that beyond is something that transcends concepts, which means low outer

Tsuku appearing in Jorge is basically like Samus showing up in Kirby, it's neat but ultimately doesn't mean anything tsuku also shows up in way the **** more than just disco wednesdayyy
In the context of Jorge, it's just a narrative throughline the author likes to do, it's the "same" character, but also not really, actually, a more apt comparison would be Akuma showing up in Tekken, same dude, completely different everything else, but just because Akuma is in both, it doesn't mean that enables cross scaling.
Jorge works on a different canon and cosmology than the author's other works though it does have a few overlapping similarities for obvious reasons
Beyond probably is low 1-C tho given a super blatant R>F interaction, which includes explicit uni 4-D objects within that interaction.
Beyond is also stated to exist in a place that transcends the world in a guide too

Upgrade bad, upgrade involves disconnected scaling, but Beyond probably is low 1-C either way, just not for the OP's reasons.
which doesnt matter because we dont have a beyond profile to begin with, and the profiles we do have just get random plot manip from it, and kars doesnt scale to shit so it not like it effects him too

Edit: Actually maybe the snowman dude from Fairy Tail would be a good example, essentially a mascot character that shows up in all his works, despite the works themselves not really being the same canon i think i dont do ft

 

[abdoo]

Tsuku appearing in Jorge is basically like Samus showing up in Kirby, it's neat but ultimately doesn't mean anything tsuku also shows up in way the **** more than just disco wednesdayyy
In the context of Jorge, it's just a narrative throughline the author likes to do, it's the "same" character, but also not really, actually, a more apt comparison would be Akuma showing up in Tekken, same dude, completely different everything else, but just because Akuma is in both, it doesn't mean that enables cross scaling.
Jorge works on a different canon and cosmology than the author's other works though it does have a few overlapping similarities for obvious reasons
Beyond probably is low 1-C tho given a super blatant R>F interaction, which includes explicit uni 4-D objects within that interaction.
Beyond is also stated to exist in a place that transcends the world in a guide too

Upgrade bad, upgrade involves disconnected scaling, but Beyond probably is low 1-C either way, just not for the OP's reasons.
which doesnt matter because we dont have a beyond profile to begin with, and the profiles we do have just get random plot manip from it, and kars doesnt scale to shit so it not like it effects him too

Edit: Actually maybe the snowman dude from Fairy Tail would be a good example, essentially a mascot character that shows up in all his works, despite the works themselves not really being the same canon i think i dont do ft

They are from the same composer and he mentioned that it is a fictional device and that it came from another world from one of those infinite worlds and that he was the hero but he is no longer like that so it is more logical + also concepts still fall under logic and that everything has a meaning and is explained by logic, in In fact, kars knows beyond but refused to use it because he hates being the leading man + not 5d-4d if we want a low ball scale it would be 11d because it transcends the higher dimensional spacetime world in string theory.

 

[Sisyphusx]

Well, we have to know that the concept of dimensions is one, but ideas can be added to it, as you said, it may include 6d Or 5d, etc... But the original will be that it is one concept, which is the axes of movement, or rather an existential level. Now this level will be the same thing, because the personality transcends the concept, so it will not be affected by adding these dimensions under the concept, as the wiki says (completely independent of the number of layers/ dimensions present on the setting) Where will these layers and dimensions be added? under the concept of dimensions and so on

That reasoning would make every character who Transcends the concept of space-time (of even a 4D verse) a L-1A/1A character and also violate the wiki standards.
I'm not much sure but what I can say on this analogy is after a character transcends the concept of space-time of a 5D verse he becomes 6D and unbounded by the concept in a sense so even if you add 6D, 7D later (the concept of space-time in the verse was only 5D when the character transcended it, he only transcended 5D) it won't affect him or upgrade him.

 

[abdoo]

That reasoning would make every character who Transcends the concept of space-time (of even a 4D verse) a L-1A/1A character and also violate the wiki standards.
I'm not much sure but what I can say on this analogy is after a character transcends the concept of space-time of a 5D verse he becomes 6D and unbounded by the concept in a sense so even if you add 6D, 7D later (the concept of space-time in the verse was only 5D when the character transcended it, he only transcended 5D) it won't affect him or upgrade him.

You do not always have to just prove that the context is a real concept and not just an idea or ideas + I have already explained to you, there is no need for me to repeat

 

[Chariot190]

They are from the same composer and he mentioned that it is a fictional device and that it came from another world from one of those infinite worlds and that he was the hero but he is no longer like that so it is more logical + also concepts still fall under logic and that everything has a meaning and is explained by logic,

I hope to God you aren't trying to explain JoJo-related media to me.

The book having the same author means nothing (Like do you think Zelda and Mario have the same canon because they have the same creator and sometimes Link or Mario cameos between them?).
If you've actually read the like, 10+ books Tsuku is in, not just DW, you'd know that while some are in fact connected and share an explicit canon, others are totally and utterly disconnected. Tsuku is a Deadpool-esque character, his alluding to other media is tongue in cheek with a double meaning where, in the context of Jorge he's just saying his past, but to the reader, it's a meta nod to how he literally was the hero in the past book. In this case you're conflating the meta nod with the in-universe nod.
Especially as we know the world of JJ, while having similarities, is not the same as past and following works.

in In fact, kars knows beyond but refused to use it because he hates being the leading man + not 5d-4d if we want a low ball scale it would be 11d because it transcends the higher dimensional spacetime world in string theory.

Kars going "oh ok, i get what it's trying to do and I'm fine with being a supporting role" means absolutely ******* nothing in regards to scaling. There is no "he refused to use it", never implied he had a say in the matter.

Again, just because Tsuku is in other media doesn't mean we cross-scale that shit, hell if you dig even deeper you'd know Tsuku isn't even a character created by this author, he basically snatched Tsuku from this OTHER dude, and just made him basically his mascot character.

You do not always have to just prove that the context is a real concept and not just an idea or ideas + I have already explained to you, there is no need for me to repeat

Oh yes you ******* do, you absolutely must prove your claims to be solid, true and without compromise for something like this, there is no inbetween.
You either prove it, or drop it entirely, we aren't even gonna to humour this if you can't even prove a basic foundation of your post.

 

[abdoo]

I hope to God you aren't trying to explain JoJo-related media to me.

The book having the same author means nothing (Like do you think Zelda and Mario have the same canon because they have the same creator and sometimes Link or Mario cameos between them?).
If you've actually read the like, 10+ books Tsuku is in, not just DW, you'd know that while some are in fact connected and share an explicit canon, others are totally and utterly disconnected. Tsuku is a Deadpool-esque character, his alluding to other media is tongue in cheek with a double meaning where, in the context of Jorge he's just saying his past, but to the reader, it's a meta nod to how he literally was the hero in the past book. In this case you're conflating the meta nod with the in-universe nod.
Especially as we know the world of JJ, while having similarities, is not the same as past and following works.

Kars going "oh ok, i get what it's trying to do and I'm fine with being a supporting role" means absolutely ******* nothing in regards to scaling. There is no "he refused to use it", never implied he had a say in the matter.

Again, just because Tsuku is in other media doesn't mean we cross-scale that shit, hell if you dig even deeper you'd know Tsuku isn't even a character created by this author, he basically snatched Tsuku from this OTHER dude, and just made him basically his mascot character.


Oh yes you ******* do, you absolutely must prove your claims to be solid, true and without compromise for something like this, there is no inbetween.
You either prove it, or drop it entirely, we aren't even gonna to humour this if you can't even prove a basic foundation of your post.

I never said that because they are the same writer. This means that they are the same character only. This is more clarification because in the context it was clarified that he is a main character in a story in which he was the hero and came to this world. I do not know what might change him if there are other versions of Tsukumojuku novels. This will not change anything or He is a character that was taken by the writer lol, as an example of this, the character Arale in db from the same writer and appeared in the story of db but in a different role .. also regarding kars that he refused the role of the heroine, I want to say that he just will not use beyond because he hates to be a leading man and has already been With knowledge of Boelsian plots he already understands this + in either case it still does not change that concepts arise from logic

 

[abdoo]

Oh yes you ******* do, you absolutely must prove your claims to be solid, true and without compromise for something like this, there is no inbetween.
You either prove it, or drop it entirely, we aren't even gonna to humour this if you can't even prove a basic foundation of your post.

And I have already proven this too. There are many contexts about logic in jojo and how everything has meaning. You cannot explain concepts without logic and they will not have meaning.

 

[Chariot190]

I never said that because they are the same writer. This means that they are the same character only. This is more clarification because in the context it was clarified that he is a main character in a story in which he was the hero and came to this world.

Again, you're talking about a character more meta than Deadpool and saying because he alluded to, in a 4th wall breaking double meaning wink to the audience, that the two completely disconnected books, with an explicitly different cosmology, actually scale off each other. No offense but that's actual insanity and just knowing Tsuku's plot would tell you that lmao no, they literally can not fit together even with wacky word travel shit.

I do not know what might change him if there are other versions of Tsukumojuku novels.

A ******* lot, like how he's merely a reoccurring author's pet, or how his story already ended, or how sometimes he merely cameos. Like did you REALLY make a CRT involving the most meta character ever conceived and didn't even know he's in literally dozens of pieces of work in some shape, way or form? he isnt even relavant in disco, idk why youre bringing that up as an example given disco is a case of him cameoing in a work completely separate from his own

This will not change anything or He is a character that was taken by the writer lol, as an example of this, the character Arale in db from the same writer and appeared in the story of db but in a different role ..

Despite that, Dr. Slump and DBZ are very clearly not the same media, it's merely a character from another of the author's work making an appearance.

also regarding kars that he refused the role of the heroine, I want to say that he just will not use beyond because he hates to be a leading man and has already been With knowledge of Boelsian plots he already understands this + in either case it still does not change that concepts arise from logic

I really don't care what you want to say mate, what matters is if it's actually true, and nowhere in the novel, does it say that Kars could just up and get Beyond if he wanted to. Him being fine with not being the leading man had more to do with his interest in JoJo and seeing how he and humanity unfolded, as well as due to him mellowing out on mars. We know damn well Kars can't do shit against Beyond, because he himself basically says as much and is forced to rely on JoJI to defeat Dio because only Beyond can defeat Beyond.

And I have already proven this too. There are many contexts about logic in jojo and how everything has meaning. You cannot explain concepts without logic and they will not have meaning.

That isn't proving anything, at all. Especially as the only logic related thing, WOU, doesn't actually exist in the context of the novel, given he, ya know, came out a decade later?

And WOU sure as **** ain't tier 1 either.

 

[abdoo]

Again, you're talking about a character more meta than Deadpool and saying because he alluded to, in a 4th wall breaking double meaning wink to the audience, that the two completely disconnected books, with an explicitly different cosmology, actually scale off each other. No offense but that's actual insanity and just knowing Tsuku's plot would tell you that lmao no, they literally can not fit together even with wacky word travel shit.

A ******* lot, like how he's merely a reoccurring author's pet, or how his story already ended, or how sometimes he merely cameos. Like did you REALLY make a CRT involving the most meta character ever conceived and didn't even know he's in literally dozens of pieces of work in some shape, way or form? he isnt even relavant in disco, idk why youre bringing that up as an example given disco is a case of him cameoing in a work completely separate from his own

Well, the existence of different endings and roles in those stories would lead to the conclusion that only the Mozai cycle, world, or time period changed before a period of time in the story + Would you give me the original Tsukumojuku novel you are talking about? He appeared in disco wednesdayyy, even if he appears in other works, it will be a possibility with another story (I haven't read about it)
Edit: In fact, they still hold the same thing. Your saying that this is not proof does not mean that you have denied it. The context supports my words more than yours, and I gave you an example of Arale's character.

Despite that, Dr. Slump and DBZ are very clearly not the same media, it's merely a character from another of the author's work making an appearance.

Aren't Dr, slimp and db the same world? Goku appeared when he was young talking to Arale in the manga

I really don't care what you want to say mate, what matters is if it's actually true, and nowhere in the novel, does it say that Kars could just up and get Beyond if he wanted to. Him being fine with not being the leading man had more to do with his interest in JoJo and seeing how he and humanity unfolded, as well as due to him mellowing out on mars. We know damn well Kars can't do shit against Beyond, because he himself basically says as much and is forced to rely on JoJI to defeat Dio because only Beyond can defeat Beyond.

What I'm saying is that he didn't use or reach the Beyond because he hates it and actually your talk about him returning from Mars and that he took refuge in jojj is because he didn't want to be a pioneer man like that simply I'm not scale Kars now I can scale him 10d with environmental destruction

That isn't proving anything, at all. Especially as the only logic related thing, WOU, doesn't actually exist in the context of the novel, given he, ya know, came out a decade later?

And WOU sure as **** ain't tier 1 either.

Oh man, I didn't talk about wou, it literally came years after the novel, and I didn't say it's from A tier, it's basically not 4d, but I'm talking about logic and meaning, something that explains and gives meaning to everything, like a logical result of his mathematical equations.

 

[Eclipso]

Is this Kars

 

[abdoo]

Is this Kars

For dio beyond

 

[Thelastmlg]

Where does it even include "space, time and dimensions" in those concepts.

Even if it does, transcending either of them, even on a conceptual level, does not give any tiers, we stopped doing that years ago, now is completely dependent on either the cosmology or how hard they transcend it.

Beyond's transcendence is just the typical "see word below as fictional", so he only gets one low 1-C

 

[abdoo]

Where does it even include "space, time and dimensions" in those concepts.

It has already been said that logic explains and gives meaning to everything (there is nothing without meaning). We also see here proof of the existence of concepts such as the concept of metaphysical space and the concept of time
You can see here

Even if it does, transcending either of them, even on a conceptual level, does not give any tiers, we stopped doing that years ago, now is completely dependent on either the cosmology or how hard they transcend it.

I have already explained the reason for it to be A-1 according to wiki faq see my words and the page

Tiering System FAQ

A: Whether higher-dimensional entities qualify for such high tiers or not depends on several different factors, which may take root both in and out-of-verse. To explain this situation, we must first clarify what exactly being higher-dimensional entails. In a way, yes, though not how most would...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Beyond's transcendence is just the typical "see word below as fictional", so he only gets one low 1-C

It will be 12D low ball bc this

 

[Chariot190]

Well, the existence of different endings and roles in those stories would lead to the conclusion that only the Mozai cycle, world, or time period changed before a period of time in the story

Or maybe they're just different novels and you're conflating them so you can wank a completely different story, is never gonna fly.

+ Would you give me the original Tsukumojuku novel you are talking about?

Original? The original shit he appeared in is the Junior Detective Club book, written by a completely different author. And then this author, Otaro, wrote his own book based on THAT, literally called Tsukumojuku, just look this shit up yourself, this is the absolute bare minimum and you're telling me you didn't even know that?

He appeared in disco wednesdayyy, even if he appears in other works, it will be a possibility with another story (I haven't read about it)

I don't even know what you're saying here.

Edit: In fact, they still hold the same thing. Your saying that this is not proof does not mean that you have denied it. The context supports my words more than yours, and I gave you an example of Arale's character.

The context is literally why it ain't the same thing, the tsuku who appears in other works is not the exact same Tsuku who is in JJ, and the Tsuku who is in Wednesday is not the Tsuku who is in Tsuku and the Tsuku who is in Tsuku is the Tsuku in JDC though, but the Tsuku who is in JDC is not the Tsuku who is in Tsuku (Think of it like Dragon Ball GT in that situation, a one way connection). All the tongue-in-cheek references to how he used to be the protagonist isn't even talking about Disco either, it's a meta nod to the Tsuku novel of the same name. The fact you're trying to conflate not even the actual novel that's being referenced but a different one is an insanity.

Your example with Arale is unironically an example that proves my point, she might appear in both Slump and DBZ, but DBZ and Slump aren't really the same thing even if an author's pet cameos in both.

Aren't Dr, slimp and db the same world? Goku appeared when he was young talking to Arale in the manga

Not really?
This is literally what I mean, a hyper ultra 4th wall breaking metafictional character showing up here and there in different works because the author likes them a lot and is basically his mascot, doesn't mean shit.

The world of Dr. Slump and DBZ, while having similarities, are not the same thing, the cosmology between them is different, blatantly contradicting each other.

What I'm saying is that he didn't use or reach the Beyond because he hates it and actually your talk about him returning from Mars and that he took refuge in jojj is because he didn't want to be a pioneer man like that simply I'm not scale Kars now I can scale him 10d with environmental destruction

What you're saying is wrong and hilariously out of context and could only be called wank of the highest magnitude.
Kars simply reads JoJi's mind Disc, from it he learns of Beyond, and due to his extreme intelligence, figures out what Beyond is. From there he tells JoJi that he doesn't really understand Beyond yet and what it is and what it's doing, Joji replies back, and Kars says don't worry, he has no real interest in being a leading man himself and is fine with helping JoJi as a supporting role.
None of this implies Kars would scale, all it is, is Kars saying he's fine with the role Beyond gave him and he doesn't mind helping JoJi, something rooted in his interest in humanity, something he developed after being stuck on mars for 10,000,000,000,000,000 years and then realizing "oh wait, everything else ******* sucks".
Couple that with how later it's made 100% explicitly clear by both him and Joji that he Kars could not permanently defeat Dio or stop his goals because Kars did not have Beyond, and only Beyond can defeat Beyond and thus had to rely on JoJi, it's basically a plot point that Kars doesn't scale to shit.

Oh man, I didn't talk about wou, it literally came years after the novel, and I didn't say it's from A tier, it's basically not 4d, but I'm talking about logic and meaning, something that explains and gives meaning to everything, like a logical result of his mathematical equations.

In which absolutely nothing in JoJo, prior to WOU, really delves into "logic".
If you mean in the novel in how Tsuku says everything has meaning, that's you taking shit out of context, when he says everything has meaning, he's talking about in a story, where everything an author writes within a story should have a meaning in the grand scheme of the plot. Like if we get a chapter where something mundane happens, in reality, that mundane thing should have meaning and should come back later in some way or lead to something for the sake of the story.
And when he says logic, he literally means logic in the way of a story, in how things need to make sense within the context of the plot and just having things happen out of nowhere without an in-universe logical explanation is bad.
Logical result of mathematical equations? Yeah, in that his doing so leads to a logical conclusion within the confines of the setting.

It has already been said that logic explains and gives meaning to everything (there is nothing without meaning). We also see here proof of the existence of concepts such as the concept of metaphysical space and the concept of time
You can see here

You are blatantly lying now if you think you could just grab unrelated text scans and pass them off as actual evidence and think nobody would catch it.

That The Hand scan is from Another Day: The Book, a completely different novel written by a completely different person, at a different time. It's a novel that takes place after the events of Part 4, focusing on a Stand user who seeks revenge against his father, and Koichi and Rohan catch onto his plot of vengeance due to a murder. The novel takes place mostly from his perspective, that scan there is toward the end when The Hand and him fight in the library.
It's actually really good and I've been working on a The Book profile. but that scan has absolutely zero relation to Jorge.

You effectively just took a scan from say, Purple Haze Feedback or Crazy Diamond's Demonic Heartbreak, both noncanon pieces of JoJo spinoff material written by a different dude, and tried to apply it to this OTHER noncanon material written by this OTHER OTHER dude.

The Book

The Book ~jojo's bizarre adventure 4th another day~ is a light novel written by Otsuichi, with artwork by Hirohiko Araki. It was released to coincide with the 20th anniversary of JoJo's Bizarre Adventure.

jojowiki.com

And as for the "concept of time" scan. You're joking right? You know "concept" is an actual word and in that context, he's just saying he uses the idea of time abilities a lot right?
You have battle-boarding brainrot, and I mean that in the most inoffensive way possible, not every mention of the word concept is some super ultra tier 1 bullshit.

It will be 12D low ball bc this

Ignoring how that's NOT EVEN the right novel, and again disconnected, and again disconnected from Tsuku's OWN media too.
Beyond is only established to have a R>F over 4D space-time and 4C objects like The Cube House. At best he's low 1-C, but everyone here already knew that.

 

[Demifiend]

Ah, yes, conception = concept

 

[Chariot190]

Concept don't even mean """"Concept"""" 95% of the time.
It's like people forget it's an actual word that can and is used outside of battle boarding unga bunga number fuckery

 

[Demifiend]

 

[abdoo]

Or maybe they're just different novels and you're conflating them so you can wank a completely different story, is never gonna fly.

It will be different if no explicit context is available. Yes.

Original? The original shit he appeared in is the Junior Detective Club book, written by a completely different author. And then this author, Otaro, wrote his own book based on THAT, literally called Tsukumojuku, just look this shit up yourself, this is the absolute bare minimum and you're telling me you didn't even know that?

Yes, I know it, but what do you intend to communicate with it? Well, he took it from another writer and then? Always the same.

I don't even know what you're saying here.


The context is literally why it ain't the same thing, the tsuku who appears in other works is not the exact same Tsuku who is in JJ, and the Tsuku who is in Wednesday is not the Tsuku who is in Tsuku and the Tsuku who is in Tsuku is the Tsuku in JDC though, but the Tsuku who is in JDC is not the Tsuku who is in Tsuku (Think of it like Dragon Ball GT in that situation, a one way connection). All the tongue-in-cheek references to how he used to be the protagonist isn't even talking about Disco either, it's a meta nod to the Tsuku novel of the same name. The fact you're trying to conflate not even the actual novel that's being referenced but a different one is an insanity.

There is a difference between breaking the fourth wall and our words now. It has been clarified that they were in different roles and came to this world and this world is a new story, and they lost roles. A conclusion would be more logical than breaking the fourth wall, and your words about dr slmap cosmology it just means upscale to dba or vice versa, and this is the same about my words about Tsukumojuku

Your example with Arale is unironically an example that proves my point, she might appear in both Slump and DBZ, but DBZ and Slump aren't really the same thing even if an author's pet cameos in both.

What you're saying is wrong and hilariously out of context and could only be called wank of the highest magnitude.
Kars simply reads JoJi's mind Disc, from it he learns of Beyond, and due to his extreme intelligence, figures out what Beyond is. From there he tells JoJi that he doesn't really understand Beyond yet and what it is and what it's doing, Joji replies back, and Kars says don't worry, he has no real interest in being a leading man himself and is fine with helping JoJi as a supporting role.
None of this implies Kars would scale, all it is, is Kars saying he's fine with the role Beyond gave him and he doesn't mind helping JoJi, something rooted in his interest in humanity, something he developed after being stuck on mars for 10,000,000,000,000,000 years and then realizing "oh wait, everything else ******* sucks".
Couple that with how later it's made 100% explicitly clear by both him and Joji that he Kars could not permanently defeat Dio or stop his goals because Kars did not have Beyond, and only Beyond can defeat Beyond and thus had to rely on JoJi, it's basically a plot point that Kars doesn't scale to shit.

Or does he just mean that Cars, who understood and knew Beyond, doesn't want to be a leading man, and that Beyond allows him to be the hero of the story, but he doesn't want to be when he fights Dio while the child he owns is with him?

In which absolutely nothing in JoJo, prior to WOU, really delves into "logic".
If you mean in the novel in how Tsuku says everything has meaning, that's you taking shit out of context, when he says everything has meaning, he's talking about in a story, where everything an author writes within a story should have a meaning in the grand scheme of the plot. Like if we get a chapter where something mundane happens, in reality, that mundane thing should have meaning and should come back later in some way or lead to something for the sake of the story.
And when he says logic, he literally means logic in the way of a story, in how things need to make sense within the context of the plot and just having things happen out of nowhere without an in-universe logical explanation is bad.
Logical result of mathematical equations? Yeah, in that his doing so leads to a logical conclusion within the confines of the setting.

You said it yourself. Everything has a logical meaning in the story, and as long as it is something devoid of it, then this is enough, and the same for mathematical values 7

You are blatantly lying now if you think you could just grab unrelated text scans and pass them off as actual evidence and think nobody would catch it.

That The Hand scan is from Another Day: The Book, a completely different novel written by a completely different person, at a different time. It's a novel that takes place after the events of Part 4, focusing on a Stand user who seeks revenge against his father, and Koichi and Rohan catch onto his plot of vengeance due to a murder. The novel takes place mostly from his perspective, that scan there is toward the end when The Hand and him fight in the library.
It's actually really good and I've been working on a The Book profile. but that scan has absolutely zero relation to Jorge.

: I never said that they are from the same novel, but they are from the same world. The writer agreed On them and they were spread mainly lol

You effectively just took a scan from say, Purple Haze Feedback or Crazy Diamond's Demonic Heartbreak, both noncanon pieces of JoJo spinoff material written by a different dude, and tried to apply it to this OTHER noncanon material written by this OTHER OTHER dude.

The Book

The Book ~jojo's bizarre adventure 4th another day~ is a light novel written by Otsuichi, with artwork by Hirohiko Araki. It was released to coincide with the 20th anniversary of JoJo's Bizarre Adventure.

jojowiki.com

And as for the "concept of time" scan. You're joking right? You know "concept" is an actual word and in that context, he's just saying he uses the idea of time abilities a lot right?
You have battle-boarding brainrot, and I mean that in the most inoffensive way possible, not every mention of the word concept is some super ultra tier 1 bullshit.

Ignoring how that's NOT EVEN the right ******* novel, and again disconnected, and again disconnected from Tsuku's OWN media too.
Beyond is only established to have a R>F over 4D space-time and 4C objects like The Cube House. At best he's low 1-C, but everyone here already knew that.

As I said above, and add this to Actually, the novel is after the events of Jojo in Condlin, years ago, so everyone in Jojo will be part of it
+ The word concept means an idea, and in this context the idea of power means the manipulation of time. This basically does not negate the existence of these concepts. We already know the existence of time, and this automatically leads to the existence of the concept of time

 

[StekFence]

We also see here proof of the existence of concepts such as the concept of metaphysical space and the concept of time

You’re trolling right? No offense, buts it’s blatantly clear that araki is trying to say he doesn’t want all his main villains to use time powers. When he says, “that concept”, even a four year old child can see that he is talking about the idea of all his villains manipulating time As their stand ability. It’s in no way ever implied that dio, kira, or diavalo are interacting with the abstraction of time Itself. Also, The book is just not cross scalable to any other Jojo media.

 

[StekFence]

Actually, the novel is after the events of Jojo in Condlin, years ago, so everyone in Jojo will be part of it

Your scan only shows that Thus spoke Rohan is canon, which we all know already.

 

[Eclipso]

For dio beyond

No, I meant, I know someone on discord who uses the exact same argument, and his name was “Kars”

He used CSaP tho

 

[Demifiend]

True

 

[Chariot190]

It will be different if no explicit context is available. Yes.

Which there is, blatantly actually, the two novels simply can not fit with each other, intentionally at that.
And if there wasn't, it still wouldn't because that's not how shit works here.

It would only be the same if directly confirmed by the author and explained as to how.

Yes, I know it, but what do you intend to communicate with it? Well, he took it from another writer and then? Always the same.

I'm saying you have literally no idea what you're talking about and should stop spouting actually poorly cobbled-together nonsense that not even you actually understand simply because it has funny big words in it. You haven't read the like ten novels you'd even need to read to even START making a thread like this. What youre doing is tantamount to trying to scale DBH to canon DBZ except with like, 4 extra steps of noncanonicity added between it.

ACTUALLY, a good example would be trying to scale say, Pikachu, off Sephiroth, because they both show up in Smash Bros, and thus, you're arguing the world of pokemon and final fantasy must be the same because they have shared characters in smash, without realizing that the world of smash is simply its own thing that cobbles together a bunch of shit without actually being strictly the exact same between.
Or Akuma in tekken tbh.

There is a difference between breaking the fourth wall and our words now. It has been clarified that they were in different roles and came to this world and this world is a new story, and they lost roles.

Except they don't even say that.
Tsuku explains that he had Beyond, and he works as a detective, and he knows that he will always succeed because Beyond writes it for him to, and he is, or was, the protagonist and hero, but now he isn't so sure and thus isn't anymore.
And the god of this world, Beyond, chooses Joji over him so he's no longer the protagonist.
They never once actually say anything about a past novel or past world, and the ONLY time they do, is when talking about worlds in the context of D4C and MIH's universal loops or travel.
He unironically doesn't even say what you're trying to use as evidence, because that simply isn't the case to begin with.

A conclusion would be more logical than breaking the fourth wall, and your words about dr slmap cosmology it just means upscale to dba or vice versa, and this is the same about my words about Tsukumojuku

It's barely even that, he says he used to be the protagonist, and now he is not. In the context of the book, he's talking about how he's never failed a case and things always go his way, something he talks about in the first actual conversation with him and established before that, in how in elementary school he worked as a detective and solved every case, which is what Tsuku is talking about, how he used to be the detective and things always worked out for him with Beyond and he was the main character. But to us, the readers it's a nudge nudge wink wink allusion to how he was the main character in a past book. That is all.
And no, that isn't how shit works, we don't cross scale cosmology or verses because an author goes "hmm I like this character, let me reuse him".
You obviously don't even understand what Jorge Joestar even is to begin, it's effectivelyAn"A Otaro novel set in the confines of JoJo", the very basis of the novel is what if it was JoJo and not his past works. There's overlap, and shared notes, but that's because it it's trying to set of a JoJofied version of how he usually goes about things.

If you read the novels you'd know it ain't even just Tsuku that cameous, though he has the largest one, the detectives that confront Kira at one point are from a different book as well, except they all murder each other in the past book and die disgusting deaths, but in JJ they're all fine and chill and alive, because it's merely just a cameo and reused, idk, "assets" i guess? You're taking basic nods and cameos to try and connect two completely different forms of media, we aren't accepting this, and never will.
You are grasping at straws, and to be blunt, even if what you said is true it aint, at all this still wouldn't even be accepted because of how poorly the CRT is made for such a huge change.

Or does he just mean that Cars, who understood and knew Beyond, doesn't want to be a leading man, and that Beyond allows him to be the hero of the story, but he doesn't want to be when he fights Dio while the child he owns is with him?

No? We are literally told exactly the situation at hand, there is no "maybe Kars could if he wanted", they make it clear he can not.
He figures out Beyond is a God, knows it's writing a story, and is personally fine with not being the main character, that is all that is established, but then they further establish Kars can't actually defeat Dio because Bryond makes it so he can not lose, and so, must rely on JoJi and his Beyond to work together to defeat Dio.
Kars at that point was getting fed up with Dio's shit, if he could just get around Beyond he would have, but he didn't, because he couldn't and had to resort to a convoluted workaround with JoJi who did have Beyond.
We will never scale Kars to Beyond off of actual nothing when everything points to the fact he couldn't. The absolute best thing you could argue is that Kars could convince Beyond to join him instead, but that has **** all to do with power and has more to do with the fact Kars is just a very cool dude and Bryond would probably find it interesting to write a novel focused on him. In the exact same way Beyond left Tsuku for Jorge.

You said it yourself. Everything has a logical meaning in the story, and as long as it is something devoid of it, then this is enough, and the same for mathematical values 7

Do you now know logic is an actual word? It just means "to make sense" in this situation, things have to make sense in a story, aka things have to be logical in a story. They don't mean logic in some tier 1 fuckery kind of way, but rather "stories that don't make sense are bad, so make a story that does make sense".

: I never said that they are from the same novel, but they are from the same world. The writer agreed On them and they were spread mainly lol

What? No? The only JoJo novel that has even a bit of semblance of canonicity is GioGio 2, every other novel is explicitly noncanon, in fact, both novels, The Book and Jorge are actually listed in the noncanon section of Veller in which beyond has a transcendence statement which I plan on slapping into my own personal JJ crt in the future and hard confirmation cube house is 4-Dimensional

We also know that Araki had zero involvement with the writing of either novels, especially The Book, which was a novel that ITS author spent nearly a decade writing, going through thousands of manuscripts and drafts. Like goddamn I wish The Book WAS canon, there's a very, very, good feat in it for CD.
Hirohiko Araki has zero say in what happened in those two novels, and neither are part of actual Jojo canon. You can't cross-scale two completely different novels like that, when each one itself has an extra author between them.

Also,

Araki himself is well known for being hands off in the writing of spins off. Jorge being based on JoJo doesn't mean it draws from all spin offs as well.

As I said above, and add this to

You said nothing above, you haven't even proved the most basic foundation of your claims, let alone any actual canon connections.

rohan stuff

Uh yeah, Thus Spoke Rohan is canon, because it's written by Araki himself and stated to be canon? Like what an actual nothing argument.

Actually, the novel is after the events of Jojo in Condlin, years ago, so everyone in Jojo will be part of it

That isn't even true, the novel doesn't even feature Part 8. And the novel itself literally can not fit within the confines of JoJo canon.
Hell most abilities don't even work the same way, an obvious one is Made in Heaven looping the universe 37 times but in canon, he looped the universe once, died, and bam JoJo ended. In the novel MIH works differently mechanically to accomplish that goal for the sake of plot, completely contradicting how things work.
And let's not even talk about Kars, something Araki has talked about in how he will never return. Or how D4C works or how BTD breaks its own rules in canon for the plot.

And just from a plot standpoint, basically, everything in Jorge contradicts canon. Jorge is the most noncanon piece of media ever conceived.

+ The word concept means an idea, and in this context the idea of power means the manipulation of time. This basically does not negate the existence of these concepts. We already know the existence of time, and this automatically leads to the existence of the concept of time

The word concept means an idea or principle of something.
Araki is saying "i use the idea of time abilities a lot in my work", and you're extrapolating and wanking such a basic use of the word to mean the novel scales to like 1-A because of concepts, concepts that aren't even actually established.

Did you know, the word "concept" is only used five times in the whole novel? And each of those 5 times, it's only ever used to explain what something is to someone or something, and one is Kars literally saying "We, the Pillar Men, lacked the concept of emotional investment lmao, so yeah we were kinda assholes lol".
Just because they use the word concept, doesn't mean it's talking about it in a way that'd get you tier 1.



Now how about this, before you even think of replying, show us that "concept" in this context is something that would enable tier 1, and then, show us that Tsuku is explicitly canon and in the same setting as JJ not disco wednesday btw, that isn't even the thing that's being referenced

 

[StekFence]

and one is Kars literally saying "We, the Pillar Men, lacked the concept of emotional investment lmao, so yeah we were kinda assholes lol".

Sounds like nep aspect 2 to me

 

[TheGunsFinalWrath]

Powerscalers in debate community forgetting about actual words is crazy
Teacher in school: "Student. Please explain this concept to me, and it's relation to the character in the story that you wrote up about.."
Student: "The character transcends the concept, and thus, he's tier 1"

Teacher:

 

[Eclipso]

Agree with OP fra

Powerscalers in debate community forgetting about actual words is crazy
Teacher in school: "Student. Please explain this concept to me, and it's relation to the character in the story that you wrote up about.."
Student: "The character transcends the concept, and thus, he's tier 1"

Teacher:

agree with OP fra

 

[TheGunsFinalWrath]

Agree with OP fra

agree with OP fra

Op = original poster or smth. So you're not agreeing with me but with abdoo bro

 

[Demifiend]

Common baoh/Eclipso/kars/wamuu etc (stop changing nick on discord) L

 

[Demifiend]

Powerscalers in debate community forgetting about actual words is crazy
Teacher in school: "Student. Please explain this concept to me, and it's relation to the character in the story that you wrote up about.."
Student: "The character transcends the concept, and thus, he's tier 1"

Teacher:

 

[It_is_i_wyatt]

i laugh

 

[Eclipso]

Common baoh/Eclipso/kars/wamuu etc (stop changing nick on discord) L

Shut up Walter

 

[Agnaa]

Since Tsukumojuuku, Disco Wednesdayyy, and other Maijou shit came up, I figured I'd weigh in. Apologies for the necro, but I think this information should get out there so people don't get swindled by a better attempt in the future.

First it's pretty sus that the OP used a machine translation, when Disco was translated 9 months before this thread was made. There is absolutely nothing beyond timeline fuckery there. If it's just based on Jorge stuff, that's been translated for even longer. Even Tsukumojuuku itself was translated before this thread was made.

Chariot's also right to point out how Tsukumojuuku appearing in both books doesn't make them canon to each other. But it's not just him; this author reuses character names, group names, location names, etc. over and over again without any canon connection between them. This can be seen even with the paltry amount of stuff that's been translated of his. Hell, some of his books have other chapters not be canon to each other, despite featuring the same characters in similar locations with the same abilities.

Tsukumojuuku does make this a bit worse, since there's multiple characters with different names that can seem similar in Japanese if no further context is given (Tsukumo Juuku vs Tsukumojuuku Katou), many characters lie about having the Tsukumojuuku name, there's about 12 different instances of the Tsukumojuuku character from different points in time, or which see each other as fiction (or which are just equally unreal paranoid delusions of the real Tsukumojuuku, if you take that interpretation). Which one would you say has the Beyond? Especially since none of them canonically have anything resembling that, from what I've seen.

This sort of scaling has so many issues that it should just never be done.